Americans PLEASE

[scottt]

Vote for Christ 2016.

[SuperTed]

The war in Iraq has been a disaster. It was always going to be a disaster.

America has never been serious about fighting Islamic terrorism. They've even supported Islamic terrorism when it's been in their favour to do so.  

[pellius]

yes some good points here... How could they have fear from this Man, the UN was way too slow to act on many occasions... this guy below was a Failure...

Beyond a failure. If the UN had some balls the massacre in Rwanda, the only other true genocide, could have easily been prevented. Nearly a million people slaughtered primarily by machetes in three months. That's more than every man, women, and child that lives on this island of Hawaii that I reside.

[pellius]

The war in Iraq has been a disaster. It was always going to be a disaster.

America has never been serious about fighting Islamic terrorism. They've even supported Islamic terrorism when it's been in their favour to do so.  

What would you have done when Saddamn continually violated the armistice agreement following Gulf War 1? What would you have done after he nearly completed building a nuclear reactor?

Iraq was on it's way with schools, human rights, oil money going to the people and not Saddamn's pockets. It may not seem like a big thing to you but an Iraqi told my brother when he was there thanks because he can now fly a kite in the country.

The problem is that we left. Same mistake that we made in Vietnam where over twice the number of people were killed in two years than our entire ten year involvement on both sides.

[Parker]

What would you have done when Saddamn continually violated the armistice agreement following Gulf War 1? What would you have done after he nearly completed building a nuclear reactor?

Iraq was on it's way with schools, human rights, oil money going to the people and not Saddamn's pockets. It may not seem like a big thing to you but an Iraqi told my brother when he was there thanks because he can now fly a kite in the country.

The problem is that we left. Same mistake that we made in Vietnam where over twice the number of people were killed in two years than our entire ten year involvement on both sides.

Nation building is expensive. And as we build up one or two nations, our nation suffers...and other nations are building up themselves and laugh at us.

No truer words have been spoken with "you break it, you own it."

[SuperTed]

What would you have done when Saddamn continually violated the armistice agreement following Gulf War 1? What would you have done after he nearly completed building a nuclear reactor?

Iraq was on it's way with schools, human rights, oil money going to the people and not Saddamn's pockets. It may not seem like a big thing to you but an Iraqi told my brother when he was there thanks because he can now fly a kite in the country.

The problem is that we left. Same mistake that we made in Vietnam where over twice the number of people were killed in two years than our entire ten year involvement on both sides.

I couldn't give a damn about Iraq and how Saddam chose to run his country. If he ever stepped out of line and attacked the US, than by all means hit him twice as hard. Until then, let him do what he wants.
At least Saddam kept control over a divided and hugely sectarian population. Are the Iraqi people better off now? Perhaps you could ask that question to the Christian population in Iraq who's numbers have dropped since the invasion from 1.5 million to a barely a quarter of a million.
The presence of American forces might have maintained peace but they would have had to leave sooner or later.

Don’t you find it strange that America despise secular minded Muslim leaders like Assad and Saddam but remain friendly with the Saudi sheikhs – who actually promote and fund the fundamentalist Islamic doctrines of Wahhabism and Salafism around the world - which is the number one cause for Islamic extremism we are currently seeing.

[pellius]

Nation building is expensive. And as we build up one or two nations, our nation suffers...and other nations are building up themselves and laugh at us.

No truer words have been spoken with "you break it, you own it."

We destroyed and remade Japan from a warlike, aggressive, militaristic society into what it is today. It was better for us, for Japan and for the world.

But this is not to say we should be in the business of nation building.

[pellius]

I couldn't give a damn about Iraq and how Saddam chose to run his country. If he ever stepped out of line and attacked the US, than by all means hit him twice as hard. Until then, let him do what he wants.
At least Saddam kept control over a divided and hugely sectarian population. Are the Iraqi people better off now? Perhaps you could ask that question to the Christian population in Iraq who's numbers have dropped since the invasion from 1.5 million to a barely a quarter of a million.
The presence of American forces might have maintained peace but they would have had to leave sooner or later.

Don’t you find it strange that America despise secular minded Muslim leaders like Assad and Saddam but remain friendly with the Saudi sheikhs – who actually promote and fund the fundamentalist Islamic doctrines of Wahhabism and Salafism around the world - which is the number one cause for Islamic extremism we are currently seeing.

Of course you don't until he nukes Israel, slaughters the Kurds and controls the entire Mideast oil supply and then people like you start saying, "Where was America? How come we didn't connect the dots."

The Iraqis were way better off after we over threw Saddam. They became worse off after we left. But that's not why we over threw him. His continual violation of international law seems to have just sailed over your head. Controlling the Middle East oil supply is a threat to out national security.

How long should we stay? As long as it takes. How long were/are we in Germany, Korea, Philippines? There's no time table in international affairs and the was the biggest mistake Obama made. Telling the enemy when we would leave.

What's strange is not that we do business with the Saudi's. We need oil. What's strange is that we are not allowed to drill for oil here in our own country. ANWR has been estimated to hold far more oil than Saudi Arabia and we could eliminate our dependency on foreign oil by using the oil we have here in our own country. Just addition of shale and fracking has driven oil prices down and we are now nearly the largest producer of oil in the world. We could easily triple our production.

[SuperTed]

Of course you don't until he nukes Israel, slaughters the Kurds and controls the entire Mideast oil supply and then people like you start saying, "Where was America? How come we didn't connect the dots."

Let me guess, you also think Iran are going to nuke Israel and support a war against them to?
LOL. You know, you really shouldn’t believe everything you are told from politicians, especially those of the neo-conservative variety.
You're a smart guy pellius. You're better than this.

The Iraqis were way better off after we over threw Saddam.

Embarrassing to see someone actually say this. They have been worse off the moment the war began.

How long should we stay? As long as it takes. How long were/are we in Germany, Korea, Philippines? There's no time table in international affairs and the was the biggest mistake Obama made. Telling the enemy when we would leave.

Spending trillions of dollars on a pointless war and then a few further trillion dollars to keep mantain the peace there afterwards.

What's strange is not that we do business with the Saudi's. We need oil.

Of course we need oil. But getting it from a nation which is probably the number one cause for Islamic terrorism on the planet today when it can be got elsewhere is baffling. America is talking about defeating Islamic terrorism while indirectly funding it. It’s a circus.

[Parker]

We destroyed and remade Japan from a warlike, aggressive, militaristic society into what it is today. It was better for us, for Japan and for the world.

But this is not to say we should be in the business of nation building.

That was then. This is now. Plus, the cultural differences between Japan and Iraq. And the ruling system. There is a reason why Al Queda and others of its ilk couldn't survive in an iron fist Saddam controlled Iraq. And Our infrastructure is falling apart...the nation is sinking from more things than debt.

[mr.turbo]

pallius supports all military action by the US in order to rid the world of evildoers

[The Ugly]

But that's not why the US invaded...   Kurd situation was in 1991...     the 2003 invasion was for the imaginary weapons of mass destruction..  

Exactly. 'Blood for Oil,' blah, blah, blah ...

You think for a minute if we went in for ISIS we wouldn't be the world's oppressive, occupying, terrorist bullies again? Might take a few months, but c'mon.

Let the 'good guys' sort out the world from now on. Our intentions obviously can't be trusted. Knock yourselves out.

[pellius]

Let me guess, you also think Iran are going to nuke Israel and support a war against them to?
LOL. You know, you really shouldn’t believe everything you are told from politicians, especially those of the neo-conservative variety.
You're a smart guy pellius. You're better than this.

Embarrassing to see someone actually say this. They have been worse off the moment the war began.

Spending trillions of dollars on a pointless war and then a few further trillion dollars to keep mantain the peace there afterwards.

Of course we need oil. But getting it from a nation which is probably the number one cause for Islamic terrorism on the planet today when it can be got elsewhere is baffling. America is talking about defeating Islamic terrorism while indirectly funding it. It’s a circus.

You really, really don't think Iran would want to destroy Israel or supply other of their enemies the means to do so? Do you think if they could Iran or anyone of the various terrorist it supports and funds would like to nuke a shopping mall or subway station in the US?

Why do I think they want to destroy Israel? It's because they say so. Instead of YOU listening to the media listen to what are enemies are saying and doing.

But before I answer anymore of your questions, some I am frothing at the mouth to do, you have continually ignored my direct question to you. I've already explain in some detail why we went to war with Iraq. And it wasn't just WMDs. It was a continual violation of international law and the armistice agreement with had with Hussein following the war in Kuwait. An agreement he continually mocked and ignored. There were 14 UN Security Resolutions that he ignore. Fourteen lines in the sand drawn. Fourteen "don't do this or else". And he called out bluff. How many warnings to we give before we just become a laughing stock and a paper tiger whose warnings are meaningless and willingness to enforce international law. Law Hussein agreed to? Bush went before the UN Security Council and declared that if they don't enforce international law he will. Saddam has attacked all his neighbors, had and used WMDs, built a nuclear reactor and open stated he wanted to control the Mideast oil supply and invade Saudi Arabia. That gave rise to the final UN Resolution 1441. He just laughed, spit in our face and called our bluff.

What would you have done?

This very thread was started by someone who realizes the role America plays in the world and we are the only one willing and able to step up confront the world enemies. An average everyday citizen across the pond is literally begging and pleading for us to elect a strong leader that will confront and destroy our enemies and the enemies of the world.

What about you?

[Pray_4_War]

We need to elect retired USMC General James Mattis.  He'll get shit squared away real quick.

[pellius]

That was then. This is now. Plus, the cultural differences between Japan and Iraq. And the ruling system. There is a reason why Al Queda and others of its ilk couldn't survive in an iron fist Saddam controlled Iraq. And Our infrastructure is falling apart...the nation is sinking from more things than debt.

There are two types of military analysts — those who believe that the essence of war is unchanging, and others who insist that its very nature is constantly and forever altered by rapidly transforming technologies, mentalities, and physical realities. The former are mostly historians. They see the nature of man as fixed, and so identify real change only in the pump — the delivery system — not the water or essence, of war. The latter are social scientists, technologists, and sometimes military men themselves, who believe new hydraulics pour forth an entirely novel liquid.

I am a believer of the former and have history to back me up. There is nothing new here but the delivery system. We must not forget the wisdom of the ages in the noise and clutter of the present. In general, Plato, Sun-Tzu, and Shakespeare, who know the unchanging nature of man, are more valuable guides in our present war than the New York Times or MSNBC. Our President and military leadership should be guided more by Thucydides than by Marx, Freud, or Foucault, and so believes that the more things change in war, the more the fundamentals remain the same.

So it doesn't really matter, nor should we care, if ISIS, Al Queda, Taliban or the Red Hand Commandos and their thugs are real Islamic fundamentalists, old-time Mahdists, or Christian nuts in drag. Nor does it ultimately matter much whether they plan to poison water, hijack airplanes, spread germs, or throw spitballs at us — only whether we have the military power and the WILL to kill them first, destroy their enclaves, strip away their money and refuges, and demonstrate to their followers that death and misery are the final and only wages of a terrorist's life.

[pellius]

pallius supports all military action by the US in order to rid the world of evildoers

Don't presume to speak for me. I'm right here and willing and able to answer any and all questions.

We're trying to have an adult discussion on very important issues. There are far more other threads, the majority in fact, where you can just balonie around.

[pellius]

Exactly. 'Blood for Oil,' blah, blah, blah ...

You think for a minute if we went in for ISIS, we wouldn't be the world's oppressive, occupying, terrorist bullies again? Might take a few months, but c'mon.

Let the 'good guys' sort out the world from now on. Our intentions obviously can't be trusted. Knock yourselves out.

If we were like any other country there would be an America flag planted in their oil fields and we would be running their government and stealing their oil. And there is not a damn thing anybody could do about it. Instead, we buy their oil, at market prices, and the proceeds go to the country and not into Saddam's pockets

[SOMEPARTS]

If we were like any other country there would be an America flag planted in their oil fields and we would be running their government and stealing their oil. And there is not a damn thing anybody could do about it. Instead, we buy their oil, at market prices, and the proceeds go to the country and not into Saddam's pockets

Is this a neocon troll job or what? haha

[pellius]

Is this a neocon troll job or what? haha

Yeah "ha ha"

"Neocon?" Oh brother. Why don't you tell me what that really means?

If you have anything intelligent to say, say it. If you disagree lets hear it. Otherwise move along to the DLB thread.

[mr.turbo]

Don't presume to speak for me. I'm right here and willing and able to answer any and all questions.

We're trying to have an adult discussion on very important issues. There are far more other threads, the majority in fact, where you can just balonie around.

You may be trying but it aint working.

It's easy to sum up your "position"...whenever the US bombs and invades a country it's for the spreading of sweet goodness across the world. But at the same time if anybody else does the same thing they are evildoers.

This is what's called the doctrine of "exceptionalism" which is a bunch of horeshit.

[blinky]

if they do go into Russia....Putin WILL put an end to them

[pellius]

You may be trying but it aint working.

It's easy to sum up your "position"...whenever the US bombs and invades a country it's for the spreading of sweet goodness across the world. But at the same time if anybody else does the same thing they are evildoers.

This is what's called the doctrine of "exceptionalism" which is a bunch of horeshit.

It "ain't" working for YOU simply because you lack the education, knowledge and perhaps intelligence to understand how things work in the world. That's why you are starting to get frustrated and angry and take such a simplistic view to summarize my beliefs.

You don't understand the concept of American Exceptionalism simply because, like most Americans, you were born and raised here and just assume what America has achieved is the norm when in fact in most of the world people are ruled by dictators, have little human rights, and suffer starvation, disease and war. You live here purely by luck of the draw and therefore take it for granted. You did nothing to earn or deserve the freedoms and prosperity paid for by others. You ignore the fact that far more people want to come here to live than in any other country. You ignore the fact that the world always looks to us for leadership and to come to the rescue of others whether from natural disaster or tyranny. This very thread is started by someone not in the US asking us to show the leadership and strength to fight the enemies. He's not looking to his own country, or to France, Germany or anybody else because they are unwilling and unable to lead the fight.

We're exceptional, my friend. Very exceptional. We're not perfect but we do more for our people and for the rest of the world than anybody else.

Imagine the world without the US? Who will fill that power vacuum? Russia? China? Then you will finally humble yourself, abandon your whiny ingratitude, and get on your knees and pray for a United States.

You should be grateful that you live in a country that is the best force for good in this world.

But you won't be. You'll continue to sit behind your computer in your air conditioned room drinking and eating whatever you want no matter if you are hungry or thirsty comfortable in the fact that you are safe and have others to protect you if threatened. And think that is the norm in the world

It's working, brother. A lot of people are working and sacrificing.

Just not you.

[ritch]

if they do go into Russia....Putin WILL put an end to them

Hahaha, exactly!!!

[mr.turbo]

It "ain't" working for YOU simply because you lack the education, knowledge and perhaps intelligence to understand how things work in the world. That's why you are starting to get frustrated and angry and take such a simplistic view to summarize my beliefs.

You don't understand the concept of American Exceptionalism simply because, like most Americans, you were born and raised here and just assume what America has achieved is the norm when in fact in most of the world people are ruled by dictators, have little human rights, and suffer starvation, disease and war. You live here purely by luck of the draw and therefore take it for granted. You did nothing to earn or deserve the freedoms and prosperity paid for by others. You ignore the fact that far more people want to come here to live than in any other country. You ignore the fact that the world always looks to us for leadership and to come to the rescue of others whether from natural disaster or tyranny. This very thread is started by someone not in the US asking us to show the leadership and strength to fight the enemies. He's not looking to his own country, or to France, Germany or anybody else because they are unwilling and unable to lead the fight.

We're exceptional, my friend. Very exceptional. We're not perfect but we do more for our people and for the rest of the world than anybody else.

Imagine the world without the US? Who will fill that power vacuum? Russia? China? Then you will finally humble yourself, abandon your whiny ingratitude, and get on your knees and pray for a United States.

You should be grateful that you live in a country that is the best force for good in this world.

But you won't be. You'll continue to sit behind your computer in your air conditioned room drinking and eating whatever you want no matter if you are hungry or thirsty comfortable in the fact that you are safe and have others to protect you if threatened. And think that is the norm in the world

It's working, brother. A lot of people are working and sacrificing.

Just not you.

Nothing to add beyond dismissing your historical claims as just a bunch of fairy tales.

nothing to do with me personally.

you seem to have strong feeling about this so if you have a serious point I'd love to hear it.

 

 

[pellius]

Nothing to add beyond dismissing your historical claims as just a bunch of fairy tales.

nothing to do with me personally.

you seem to have strong feeling about this so if you have a serious point I'd love to hear it.

 

 

Calling my historical claims, that can be confirmed and verified on google (look up UN Resolution 1414, look up Iraq building a nuclear reactor which Israel destroyed, look up Saddam gassing the Kurds) as a "bunch fairy tales" and just reading my response, whether you agree or disagree, and assuming I am joking and not being serious confirms my accessment about your level of education, knowledge, experience and intelligence.

You are in over your head. I grew up in a political family where my father worked in politics and it was the topic of discussion, along with world issues every night. I had a brother that served in Vietnam and a brother who is a Colonel in the Army and served two tours in Iraq during the Bush years. I was campaigning and working in elections since before I was a teen. I even campaigned for McGovern and first term Carter much to my present horror. I also worked as a DOD contractor for twenty years and had intimate contact with the military and also travel around the world, including Iraq and saw first hand how people lived. Admittedly my stays were nothing like a tour of duty and were brief it was sheltered but seeing the best of what these war torn countries are like made a strong impression on me and strengthen my appreciation of America and how fragile civilization is.

Again you are in over your head and out of your element here. Turn off the TV, travel and try to at least read a few books of historical significance.