Great article on atheism.

[Radical Plato]

Just like that, huh?

2+2 = anything imaginable, faith alone gives me 4.

Which makes me a religious.

Sublime, sir.

This thread has now officially gone beyond deep. 

[The Ugly]

This thread has now officially gone beyond deep. 

Sorry.

[Radical Plato]

Sorry.

What for, I enjoyed the witty prose within your post. 

[SF1900]

Yes it is different, gravity lays within hard sciences just field of investigation. Spirit does not. To conclude that spirit does not exist means you have faith in the methodology of materialist science to adequately explain away all things.

No, just stop. Please stop. You sound like a dolt.

I have REASONABLE expectations that these scientific instruments work and are able to observe our physical world. I believe in these things because they are demonstrable and are repeatable through investigation. Thus, I do not have "FAITH" that these things are true. I have REASONABLE expectations that they are true based on repeated observations. But I may be wrong, and something new can appear.

Even if science cannot explain what a "spirit" is, it does not take away from the fact that science does not require "FAITH." You're using the word "faith" in the wrong context when discussing science. Faith in a spirit and "faith" in science are ENTIRELY two different things.

I am sorry that you are too stupid to understand the HUGE difference between the two.

 

[Radical Plato]

No, just stop. Please stop. You sound like a dolt.

I have REASONABLE expectations that these scientific instruments work and are able to observe our physical world. I believe in these things because they are demonstrable and are repeatable through investigation. Thus, I do not have "FAITH" that these things are true. I have REASONABLE expectations that they are true based on repeated observations. But I may be wrong, and something new can appear.

Even if science cannot explain what a "spirit" is, it does not take away from the fact that science does not require "FAITH." You're using the word "faith" in the wrong context when discussing science. Faith in a spirit and "faith" in science are ENTIRELY two different things.

I am sorry that you are too stupid to understand the HUGE difference between the two.

 

The words FAITH and STUPID are interchangeable and one is often confused for the other.

[SF1900]

The words FAITH and STUPID are interchangeable and one is often confused for the other.

Low blow, but funny.  

People of faith may be very smart in certain aspects of life, but its almost like when it comes to spirits, God, and all this stuff, they just seem to compartmentalize that part of their thinking.

[Radical Plato]

Low blow, but funny.  

People of faith may be very smart in certain aspects of life, but its almost like when it comes to spirits, God, and all this stuff, they just seem to compartmentalize that part of their thinking.

I know, odd phenomena from the perspective of those who don't compartmentalise in this way.  I am sure it has something to do with such people never really growing up (or a part of them that remains stunted), They remain unwilling to let go of the symbolism of being a child, dependent, helpless and stupid yet loved and protected regardless by those in authority.

[BigRo]

Well, isn't that just convenient and dandy, the fairy tale you believe in can't be investigated because it lives somewhere in the nether regions where no light shines from.

It can be investigated, you have to become a spiritual scientist to do it using a different methodology.

[BigRo]

No, just stop. Please stop. You sound like a dolt.

I have REASONABLE expectations that these scientific instruments work and are able to observe our physical world. I believe in these things because they are demonstrable and are repeatable through investigation. Thus, I do not have "FAITH" that these things are true. I have REASONABLE expectations that they are true based on repeated observations. But I may be wrong, and something new can appear.

Even if science cannot explain what a "spirit" is, it does not take away from the fact that science does not require "FAITH." You're using the word "faith" in the wrong context when discussing science. Faith in a spirit and "faith" in science are ENTIRELY two different things.

I am sorry that you are too stupid to understand the HUGE difference between the two.

 

To observe our physical world yes science does not need faith in something higher or spiritual, it does need faith in the human minds ability to accurately put together a picture of the universe though. Its just a word faith you could say confidence. I am pro science in that respect. What I dislike is when atheism uses science to prove the non existence of god,spirit,enlightenment or whatever words tickle your fancy.

[Radical Plato]

It can be investigated, you have to become a spiritual scientist to do it using a different methodology.

spiritual scientist you say.! Say no more.  I think I understand what I am dealing with now.

[BigRo]

is that all you can do now, respond with infantile remarks like this. You use a microscope to study microbes etc, you use concentration and meditation upon source of the mind to study spirit, simple.

[Radical Plato]

is that all you can do now, respond with infantile remarks like this. You use a microscope to study microbes etc, you use concentration and meditation upon source of the mind to study spirit, simple.

Come on now, you can't expect to say things like 'Spiritual Scientist" and expect to be taken seriously, surely.

[SF1900]

To observe our physical world yes science does not need faith in something higher or spiritual, it does need faith in the human minds ability to accurately put together a picture of the universe though. Its just a word faith you could say confidence. I am pro science in that respect. What I dislike is when atheism uses science to prove the non existence of god,spirit,enlightenment or whatever words tickle your fancy.

Well, what other method shall we use to disprove claims? Do you have a better method? If you do, you should pick up your nobel prize.

If someone makes a claim that a God or a spirit exists, they need to back up that claim. If they can't back it up, I am not going to believe the claim.

If you're going to male a claim, then fold your arms and say, "Well, science can't test it," where does that leave us? Nowhere. It just means youre allowed to excuse your claim from scientific understanding, so you can feel right. But when put under scientific scrutiny, your claims fail, thus why you keep saying, "They can't be tested with science." Of course they can be scientifically tested, you just refuse to accept it because it disproves your beliefs.

[BigRo]

Well, what other method shall we use to disprove claims? Do you have a better method? If you do, you should pick up your nobel prize.

If someone makes a claim that a God or a spirit exists, they need to back up that claim. If they can't back it up, I am not going to believe the claim.

If you're going to male a claim, then fold your arms and say, "Well, science can't test it," where does that leave us? Nowhere. It just means youre allowed to excuse your claim from scientific understanding, so you can feel right. But when put under scientific scrutiny, your claims fail, thus why you keep saying, "They can't be tested with science." Of course they can be scientifically tested, you just refuse to accept it because it disproves your beliefs.

give up trying to disprove 'claims' and be happy on your own path as you say, so many paths so many people etc. What exactly is the path of an atheist? I mean beyond being a good person, to me it seems the whole thing is based upon disproving the existence of the divine. Take that away you have no purpose in Atheism.

[Man of Steel]

And?  

I’ll expound a bit for clarity.  You stated “believe or burn”.  I noted that demons already believe in God.  Some evil men and women that openly reject God also believe in him.  Yet despite their belief they’ll still spend an eternity in hell separated from God.  

Why?

There is NO choice. The excuse God gave you free will is a LIE plain & simple. It's either believe or burn forever that's NOT a choice there is nothing free about exercising my will. God isn't saying " Hey if you want to believe in me cool and if not that's cool too " He's saying believe in me or I will fucking burn you forever and ever. That's an amoral proposition.

Ok, for the purposes of clarity let me ask some questions about your position.  You’re arguing that God operates without a standard of morality?   That God has no ability to discern between right and wrong?  

You also say that there is no choice…that free will is a lie.  How do you account for your opinion?

Now given that the “lie of free will” is a “plain and simple” notion, I assume you can easily expand upon that idea (beyond the blanket statement) given how fundamentally simplistic it is, correct?  

How do you know the flames of hell are literal?   Hell is described as punishment, eternal separation, outer darkness, wailing and gnashing, a furnace, fire, burning, the grave, like Gehenna, etc….      

And if I have free will to decide to believe in God why does it come with such a heavy consequence? That's NOT an exercise of free will. It's do as I say or else. Let's not pretend I have a choice in the matter. Your God is amoral and I would rather burn in hell then worship him and his amoral teachings.

Above you said you have no choice….no free will.  Although now you’re granting that proposition?   Which is it?

What you’re doing is replacing “free will” with a notion of “complete autonomy” in the finite and infinite.   And you’re doing so within the Christian worldview.   Given you’re engaging and entering that worldview you’re bound by its tenets.  

You’re a finite being and within your finite existence you’ve been mercifully granted the ability to act however you please.  This life is yours to live.  Despite that, your choices will still either occur in accordance with God or in opposition to him.  The timelines for the two wills are identical, but the relationship between them can be an inverse because you are not coerced into any decision.  This discussion alone attests to that very thing.  You are not a puppet; in fact, you are the puppeteer coercing your own end.  Your will functions concurrently with God’s will, but the two can remain diametrically opposed based solely upon you because God’s will is to align with you in fellowship and righteousness…..he forever wants to pull you close to him yet you desire to push him away.

God has revealed his standards, his code of morality, his laws and ultimate justice for his creation and he has every right to do so.  His will for you is made plain, but yet you’re free to defy his will. You are not fully autonomous in God’s eternity and in order to be aligned with him you must choose his righteousness and that can only be achieved through him in the person of Jesus Christ.  

His glory, mercy, grace, peace, love and justice are there for you…..it’s God’s greatest desire that you willfully come to him, but he allows you to determine your own fate.  That “heavy consequence” is determined by you.  His will is that you come unto him in humble, faithful surrender.  Although, if your will differs he honors that and allows you to remain separate from him and all his divine attributes.  Every goodness, every mercy, every act of peace and kindness, every happiness and joy is an extension of his divine nature.  He will extract all that he is  from your eternity so that you no longer have to endure all that he is, but what is left in your eternity is the hell you’ve chosen.  Further, given you’ve willfully broken his laws via your sin you’ll face his judgment and your record will be judged accordingly.

I was brainwashed into the Christian wold view by my Mother. I decided the story is amoral and the existence of God described in the bible is a laughable myth. And it's ironic a Christian talking about cherry picking lol

Sounds like you have a loving mother that honors God……you’re a lucky man.  I’ve heard so many that came from horrific circumstances.  God blessing you yet again.

I don't believe in vicarious redemption that's amoral as well. I don't want to join God in the afterlife and if I'm punished by eternal damnation then that proves he wasn't worthy to be followed and praised.

So Jesus Christ willfully taking on the punishment for our sins is grounded in no moral standards whatsoever?   Likewise, I paid someone else’s debt recently in order to help them avoid consequences and that act is also amoral, correct?

No, what you stated is a non sequitur.  Further, it's just your opinion.

My position is the best one that I came to on my own after taking everything into consideration. You or God won't persuade me otherwise , when I die I have NO fear of Hell or Heaven. I treat people how I want to be treated and have lived a more moral life than 90% of the believers I know.

I don’t doubt it.

[Radical Plato]

I’ll expound a bit for clarity.  You stated “believe or burn”.  I noted that demons already believe in God.  Some evil men and women that openly reject God also believe in him.  Yet despite their belief they’ll still spend an eternity in hell separated from God.  

Why?

Ok, for the purposes of clarity let me ask some questions about your position.  You’re arguing that God operates without a standard of morality?   That God has no ability to discern between right and wrong?  

You also say that there is no choice…that free will is a lie.  How do you account for your opinion?

Now given that the “lie of free will” is a “plain and simple” notion, I assume you can easily expand upon that idea (beyond the blanket statement) given how fundamentally simplistic it is, correct?  

How do you know the flames of hell are literal?   Hell is described as punishment, eternal separation, outer darkness, wailing and gnashing, a furnace, fire, burning, the grave, like Gehenna, etc….      

Above you said you have no choice….no free will.  Although now you’re granting that proposition?   Which is it?

What you’re doing is replacing “free will” with a notion of “complete autonomy” in the finite and infinite.   And you’re doing so within the Christian worldview.   Given you’re engaging and entering that worldview you’re bound by its tenets.  

You’re a finite being and within your finite existence you’ve been mercifully granted the ability to act however you please.  This life is yours to live.  Despite that, your choices will still either occur in accordance with God or in opposition to him.  The timelines for that will are identical, but the relationship can be an inverse because you are not coerced into any decision.  This discussion alone attests to that very thing.  You are not a puppet; in fact, you are the puppeteer coercing your own end.  Your will functions concurrently with God’s will, but the two can remain diametrically opposed based solely upon you because God’s will is to align with you in fellowship and righteousness…..he forever wants to pull you close to him yet you desire to push him away.

God has revealed his standards, his code of morality, his laws and ultimate justice for his creation and he has every right to do so.  His will for you is made plain, but yet you’re free to defy his will. You are not fully autonomous in God’s eternity and in order to be aligned with him you must choose his righteousness and that can only be achieved through him in the person of Jesus Christ.  

His glory, mercy, grace, peace, love and justice are there for you…..it’s God’s greatest desire that you willfully come to him, but he allows you to determine your own fate.  That “heavy consequence” is determined by you.  His will is that you come unto him in humble, faithful surrender.  Although, if your will differs he honors that and allows you to remain separate from him and all his divine attributes.  Every goodness, every mercy, every act of peace and kindness, every happiness and joy is an extension of his divine nature.  He will extract all that he is  from your eternity so that you no longer have to endure all that he is, but what is left in your eternity is the hell you’ve chosen.  Further, given you’ve willfully broken his laws via your sin you’ll face his judgment and your record will be judged accordingly.

Sounds like you have a loving mother that honors God……you’re a lucky man.  I’ve heard so many that came from horrific circumstances.  God blessing you yet again.

So Jesus Christ willfully taking on the punishment for our sins is grounded in no moral standards whatsoever?   Likewise, I paid someone else’s debt recently in order to help them avoid consequences and that act is also amoral?

Don’t want to join God in the afterlife….see above.

I don’t doubt it.

Jesus God Damn Christ, MOS has been typing furiously in response to the overt blasphemy littered throughout this thread.  It was a case of TL:DR for me, but I guess MOS will be praying we all go to hell for our unholy provocations.  I laughed when I seen that wall of text.

[SF1900]

give up trying to disprove 'claims' and be happy on your own path as you say, so many paths so many people etc. What exactly is the path of an atheist? I mean beyond being a good person, to me it seems the whole thing is based upon disproving the existence of the divine. Take that away you have no purpose in Atheism.

Oh boy, you know you do not have a leg to stand on when you start with the whole, "Give up trying to disprove claims." lol

Holy shit, you are the true definition of a stupid meathead lol.

Okay, one, atheism NEVER espouses a path. Atheism is a claim about one premise: Whether a God exists or not. Other than that, there is no specific doctrine or "path" associated with atheism. There are no rules, no holybooks, or no doctrines telling us how to live our life (like buddhism, islam, judaism, or christianity). So, to ask, "what is the purpose of atheism" is false, because atheism never espouses a specific path or purpose. It asks one question and one question only: Does a God exist? Thus, you are correct, there is no inherent purpose in Atheism, as Atheism never stated that there was one. The purpose of any Atheist is going to be drastically different from one person to the next because there are no specific doctrines to follow.

Hope this helps, dingbat.

[Radical Plato]

Oh boy, you know you do not have a leg to stand on when you start with the whole, "Give up trying to disprove claims." lol

Holy shit, you are the true definition of a stupid meathead lol.

Okay, one, atheism NEVER espouses a path. Atheism is a claim about one premise: Whether a God exists or not. Other than that, there is no specific doctrine or "path" associated with atheism. There are no rules, no holybooks, or no doctrines telling us how to live our life (like buddhism, islam, judaism, or christianity). So, to ask, "what is the purpose of atheism" is false, because atheism never espouses a specific path or purpose. It asks one question and one question only: Does a God exist? Thus, you are correct, there is no inherent purpose in Atheism, as Atheism never stated that there was one.

Hope this helps, dingbat.

It won't.  Such is the nature of dingbats.

[Man of Steel]

Jesus God Damn Christ, MOS has been typing furiously in response to the overt blasphemy littered throughout this thread.  It was a case of TL:DR for me, but I guess MOS will be praying we all go to hell for our unholy provocations.  I laughed when I seen that wall of text.

Any and all mockery is an after thought for me today.  I expect it, note it and don't worry about it.....it is what it is.

I share my faith for others reading that haven't yet made a choice for Christ.  If it helps someone else that does not believe come to Christ then awesome...glory to God!

I desire that no one go to hell.  If I wanted you or others to go hell Radical I wouldn't respond to anything on these boards.

[SF1900]

It won't.  Such is the nature of dingbats.

It is strange when people ask, "What is the purpose" of atheism or being an atheist?

Um, there is no purpose. There are no doctrines or rules to follow like other religions. It asks one question, and one question only: Does a God exist?

Everything else is up for grabs, in a sense.

[Radical Plato]

Any and all mockery is an after thought for me today.  I expect it, note it and don't worry about it.....it is what it is.

I share my faith for others reading that haven't yet made a choice for Christ.  If it helps someone else that does not believe come to Christ then awesome...glory to God!

I desire that no one go to hell.  If I wanted you or others to go hell Radical I wouldn't respond to anything on these boards.

I know MOS, I was just taking the piss.  You are a good man, one of the few who is a credit to the GOD you worship.  I just had to laugh as us atheists seem to be outnumbering the faithful and you hadn't visited the thread for a few pages now and then bam, huge wall of text with an essay with bullet points and individually crafted answers to all the perceived inaccuracies you made a note of.

Seriously MOS, how many atheists have you converted?

[Necrosis]

To observe our physical world yes science does not need faith in something higher or spiritual, it does need faith in the human minds ability to accurately put together a picture of the universe though. Its just a word faith you could say confidence. I am pro science in that respect. What I dislike is when atheism uses science to prove the non existence of god,spirit,enlightenment or whatever words tickle your fancy.

The universe behaves the way it does without our minds(otherwise math would not work), we know that. It is not our minds have put together the universe, it's that our minds are the first to categorize it, systemize it and make it understandable in relatable terms. Science has extended our reach, our minds are only so useful, nature is counterintuitive (quantum mechanics) hence logic, introspection etc only work so far. Without a microscope would your mind fathom the germ world? it's non-existent to you, it's out of reach of your intellect, a tool is needed. Science is that tool.

[SF1900]

I know MOS, I was just taking the piss.  You are a good man, one of the few who is a credit to the GOD you worship.

x2.

While I do not believe the same as MOS, I must admit, that at least he adheres--to the best of his ability--the doctrines that he puts forth.

That is a far cry from many of the so-called "theists" on this board.

[Man of Steel]

I know MOS, I was just taking the piss.  You are a good man, one of the few who is a credit to the GOD you worship.  I just had to laugh as us atheists seem to be outnumbering the faithful and you hadn't visited the thread for a few pages now and then bam, huge wall of text with an essay with bullet points and individually crafted answers to all the perceived inaccuracies you made a note of.

x2.

While I do not believe the same as MOS, I must admit, that at least he adheres--to the best of his ability--the doctrines that he puts forth.

That is a far cry from many of the so-called "theists" on this board.

I appreciate that....means a lot.  

Seriously MOS, how many atheists have you converted?

None that I know of.  

I just plant seeds, dialogue and answer questions where I'm able to.

Atheists just do the majority of the discussing, objecting, question asking, etc....so that's who I speak to most often.

[Radical Plato]

I appreciate that....means a lot.  

None that I know of.  

I just plant seeds, dialogue and answer questions where I'm able to.

Atheists just do the majority of the discussing, objecting, question asking, etc....so that's who I speak to most often.

I am happy to report I have never converted anybody to anything, not that I give a fuck.  I see humanity in a slow downward spiral towards nothingness that cannot be stopped.  Next stop.  Oblivion.  All aboard.

Mind you, I have always been a glass half full type of guy.