Author Topic: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?  (Read 34375 times)

The Ugly

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2015, 10:20:24 PM »
So if some sky god does exist, what created IT?

More than likely, the universe and its essential building blocks has always existed.

But even if something actually did create us or other universe stuff, why do humans feel a need to worship it and label it a god? We create things, and despite our sophistication not yet being where it needs to be to create something as complex as us, we're not gods. And if we survive as a species long enough and do come to such sophistication, we still will not ever be gods.

Such weakness, fear, ego, and shortsightedness involved in the belief in a sky god.

Simple: The West (especially America) got stuck with one who demands it. ENTIRELY cultural - we inherit our parents' God and never consider an alternative.

Not a whole lotta independent thinking going on in this area.

The Ugly

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2015, 11:11:12 PM »
On the same note, why does a creator crave/demand to be worshipped? seems that is a character flaw we would despise among us, why do some find that to be acceptable among a creator?

Seriously, who wants some insecure pansy God that requires constant validation? Stuart fucking Smalley up there, grovelling for reassurance that His holy dick measures up.

We hold Him to such an embarrassingly low standard, and we prove it with our much improved secular laws. Just look how many of His commandments we dismiss (613, by the way, not ten) for the sake of common sense and MORALITY.

Truth is, despite what that silly Facebook post says, man is 10x more moral than God.

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2015, 11:19:45 PM »
Seriously, who wants some insecure pansy God that requires constant validation? Stuart fucking Smalley up there, grovelling for reassurance that His holy dick measures up.

We hold Him to such an embarrassingly low standard, and we prove it with our much improved secular laws. Just look how many of His commandments we dismiss (613, by the way, not ten) for the sake of common sense and MORALITY.

Truth is, despite what that silly Facebook post says, man is 10x more moral than God.

Way more moral than the biblical god.. but not the real god......

The Ugly

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2015, 11:59:54 PM »
Way more moral than the biblical god.. but not the real god......

And who/what/which is this?


Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2015, 12:02:40 AM »
And who/what/which is this?



Obviously the one I believe in... isn't that how this works? Only the god I happen to believe in is the one true god?

tbombz

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2015, 11:17:34 PM »
Seriously, who wants some insecure pansy God that requires constant validation? Stuart fucking Smalley up there, grovelling for reassurance that His holy dick measures up.

We hold Him to such an embarrassingly low standard, and we prove it with our much improved secular laws. Just look how many of His commandments we dismiss (613, by the way, not ten) for the sake of common sense and MORALITY.

Truth is, despite what that silly Facebook post says, man is 10x more moral than God.
  God wants you to worship Him because that is when you will find real joy and fulfilment.

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2015, 02:08:09 PM »
Didn't bother with a bunch of post quoting, just addressing the idea of worship via a cut and paste from my previous posts which I've posted repeatedly:

What is worship though?

Simply put, God is the essence of righteousness….the bar…..the creator…..the standard…..the law.   He is the greatest possible being there is, was and ever will be.

God created us in his divine image (a generous act on his part) and defined for us two important roles within his creation: one, a kingly role in which we govern over his creation; two, a priest type role in which we walk in faithful service with God and surrender to his will for our lives so that others may draw close to him as well.   The goodness of God flows to his creation and thereby becomes an extension of his church…..we are equipped with his attributes.

To worship God means to be included in his existence and to acknowledge his position in the order of all things and to also understand our role within his creation.   We are creatures that literally overflow with worship for things we love and admire and cherish most……worship and praise pours out of us.  God doesn’t need our worship though….his existence is not contingent upon it, but he created us so that we may enter into fellowship with him and engage in praise in worship for which is absolutely worthy.   As part of the created order we give praise for those things we value the most in life.  Believers enjoy the very presence of God and he enjoys ours as well….it’s a relationship.  Given his exalted status when we are given his approval it elicits our praise and worship….we almost can’t help it at times LOL.

As C.S. Lewis notes in reference to praise and worship:

“But the most obvious fact about praise – whether of God or anything – strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honour. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless . . . shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise – lovers praising their mistresses [Romeo praising Juliet and vice versa], readers their favourite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favourite game – praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. . . . Except where intolerably adverse circumstances interfere, praise almost seems to be inner health made audible. . . . I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise whatever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: 'Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?' The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value.”

tbombz is also correct, we delight and draw tremendous pleasure from celebrating (worshipping) those things we love and cherish most.

I'm in and out of the board these days so I won't be doing extensive back and forth....especially if we've "done the dance" previously.  If I can easily copy and paste something I've previously written I might do that, but otherwise my post history is available.  I can also be PM'd provided you aren't on my blocked list.  I'm just no longer interested in rehashing or reading a bunch of repeat stuff with the same folks over and over that I've addressed more times than I have fingers and toes to count.  Not trying to be offensive or difficult just coming to a new phase in how I approach discussions. 

avxo

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2015, 02:10:34 PM »
  God wants you to worship Him because that is when you will find real joy and fulfilment.

And yet, my life is full of joy and I am quite fulfilled without your deity. I could believe your claim that I'm wrong, but what evidence do you have to present that supports your contention?

It doesn't help that your religion is all about "believe, then wait until you die so you can then be happy." Frankly, I'd rather be happy now, instead of hoping that a life after death exists.

P.S.: can you provide that consistent, rational definition of your God that I asked you for two pages ago?

tbombz

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2015, 07:00:16 PM »
Of course humans can be happy without God. Humans find extreme delight in all manner of self-centered  And/or self-righteous behavior.

What I'm talking about is a kind of joy that only comes from worshipping God. This kind of Joy can be experienced in this life.

Christianity is not about sacrificing pleasure now in order to feel pleasure later. Christianity is about reconnecting with God so that we can start feeling the ultimate pleasure now and for the rest of eternity.

avxo

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2015, 11:56:01 PM »
Of course humans can be happy without God.

So, God isn't a prerequisite for happiness. Glad we established that.


Humans find extreme delight in all manner of self-centered  And/or self-righteous behavior.

People can find joy without being self-centered or self-righteous. One person finds immeasurable joy in tickling their child and hearing him or her laugh. Another finds it simply hanging out with good friends. Still another finds joy by volunteering to help orphans or the elderly.


What I'm talking about is a kind of joy that only comes from worshipping God. This kind of Joy can be experienced in this life.

So, you're not talking about joy as we know it. You're talking about some other kind of joy... got it... ::)


Christianity is not about sacrificing pleasure now in order to feel pleasure later. Christianity is about reconnecting with God so that we can start feeling the ultimate pleasure now and for the rest of eternity.

Christianity is all about doing something now (believing Jesus is the son of God) in order to get a reward later (going to Heaven after you die).

tbombz

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2015, 02:27:54 AM »
You talk about Christianity as if you have some experience with it. If you know what Christianity is all about, how do you know that? Was there ever a point in your adult life where you truly believed the Bible? You speak about happiness and imply that your happiness is no different than the joy experienced in God.. how do you know? Have you ever experienced the joy found in God?

For a science-minded guy, dont you think you are stepping outside the boundaries of empirical knowledge when you start to speak on subjects which you have no experience with?

Do you consider you personal experience and knowledge to encompass everything in the entire universe?

Are you able to admit that there are some things in the universe that you are unaware of?

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2015, 09:30:42 AM »
You talk about Christianity as if you have some experience with it. If you know what Christianity is all about, how do you know that? Was there ever a point in your adult life where you truly believed the Bible? You speak about happiness and imply that your happiness is no different than the joy experienced in God.. how do you know? Have you ever experienced the joy found in God?

For a science-minded guy, dont you think you are stepping outside the boundaries of empirical knowledge when you start to speak on subjects which you have no experience with?

Do you consider you personal experience and knowledge to encompass everything in the entire universe?

Are you able to admit that there are some things in the universe that you are unaware of?

I was Christian until I was 35, so in your mind that qualifies me and I believe he is hitting the nail on the head

avxo

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2015, 12:24:11 PM »
You talk about Christianity as if you have some experience with it. If you know what Christianity is all about, how do you know that? Was there ever a point in your adult life where you truly believed the Bible? You speak about happiness and imply that your happiness is no different than the joy experienced in God.. how do you know? Have you ever experienced the joy found in God?

I talk about Christianity as someone who has read the Bible multiple times and knows it better than most Christians. Shouldn't the word of God be enough?


For a science-minded guy, dont you think you are stepping outside the boundaries of empirical knowledge when you start to speak on subjects which you have no experience with?

You're the one stepping outside the boundaries of empirical knowledge when you assert that an ancient book and your "feels" conclusively and irrefutably prove an entity that you cannot even provide a consistent, rational definition for.


Do you consider you personal experience and knowledge to encompass everything in the entire universe?

The answer to that should be obvious, so why ask it?


Are you able to admit that there are some things in the universe that you are unaware of?

Of course. The difference between you and I is that I don't think those things which I don't know at this time are unknowable or that our Universe is fundamentally unknowable because it's ruled by supernatural fiat.

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2015, 03:24:43 PM »
I talk about Christianity as someone who has read the Bible multiple times and knows it better than most Christians. Shouldn't the word of God be enough?


You're the one stepping outside the boundaries of empirical knowledge when you assert that an ancient book and your "feels" conclusively and irrefutably prove an entity that you cannot even provide a consistent, rational definition for.


The answer to that should be obvious, so why ask it?


Of course. The difference between you and I is that I don't think those things which I don't know at this time are unknowable or that our Universe is fundamentally unknowable because it's ruled by supernatural fiat.

My "feels" about God motivate me 1000% in my faithful walk with Christ.....unashamed and unapologetic about that too.

avxo

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2015, 06:57:56 PM »
My "feels" about God motivate me 1000% in my faithful walk with Christ.....unashamed and unapologetic about that too.

Right - and that's perfectly fine for you. If it's all down to your feelings well then why are yours better than the Buddhist a couple of offices down from me? He feels his religions is right too and motivates him in his faith.

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2015, 10:20:20 AM »
Right - and that's perfectly fine for you. If it's all down to your feelings well then why are yours better than the Buddhist a couple of offices down from me? He feels his religions is right too and motivates him in his faith.

Yes, same with the Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Mithraic follower, etc...  Some of these folks are equally or even more devout than I am.   I don't challenge their individual sincerity or motivation...I know they're genuine.   Yet, Buddha, Allah, Shiva, Vishnu and Mithra didn't die and rise and continue to reveal themselves to believers via the Holy Spirit like Jesus Christ.  All others religions have similarity in their works-based nature and all stand in opposition to Jesus Christ who calls for folks to seek him and him alone for salvation and righteousness.   It's no coincidence this world is full of religious competition and great promises provided you work to achieve and validate yourself.  These religions are demonically sourced despite the devout, sincere, highly motivated followers who many of which are probably very nice people.   What underlies all of them is direct opposition to Jesus Christ whether they realize it or not.  

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2015, 10:25:14 AM »
Yes, same with the Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Mithraic follower, etc...  Some of these folks are equally or even more devout than I am.   I don't challenge their individual sincerity or motivation...I know they're genuine.   Yet, Buddha, Allah, Shiva, Vishnu and Mithra didn't die and rise and continue to reveal himself to believers via the Holy Spirit like Jesus Christ.  All others religions have similarity in their works-based nature and all stand in opposition to Jesus Christ who calls for folks to seek him and him alone for salvation and righteousness.   It's no coincidence this world is full of religious competition and great promises provided you work to achieve and validate yourself.  These religions are demonically sourced despite the devout, sincere, highly motivated followers who many of which are probably very nice people.   What underlies all of them is direct opposition to Jesus Christ whether they realize it or not.  

Why is it important for a religion to be true, to have a character die and rise again? Couldn't a God exist that didn't require the need to fix his faulty creation with a sacrifice?

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2015, 10:47:39 AM »
Why is it important for a religion to be true, to have a character die and rise again? Couldn't a God exist that didn't require the need to fix his faulty creation with a sacrifice?

Because when given the option to reject or accept God there are many people that opt to reject him.  To exist in a world of choices means there's potential for all sorts of choices.  If a person exists in this condition in which they can choose to live however and live only for themselves and acknowledge only their desires or the desires of their intimate clan yet opt to choose the will of their creator and forsake unrighteousness they've engaged in the purest opportunity to align with God.  When you deny a myriad  number of potential choices of pleasure, pain and whathever else can be conceived and opt for God that's purity of free choice.   These are the folks that God is gathering to form his church.

The creation itself wasn't faulty, but the beings within it were given ability to disrupt it as they see fit.

God deemed that life is found in the blood and that ultimately by the shedding of the purest, most righteous blood could all be saved and aligned with him.  Why did he choose that vehicle?  Don't know.  Suppose he could've used chocolate milk, toasters, basketballs or something we can't conceive of.

Yet, his collected church will become part of his creation in which sin is removed because we've chosen this existence and to align with God.

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2015, 01:54:53 PM »
Because when given the option to reject or accept God there are many people that opt to reject him.  To exist in a world of choices means there's potential for all sorts of choices.  If a person exists in this condition in which they can choose to live however and live only for themselves and acknowledge only their desires or the desires of their intimate clan yet opt to choose the will of their creator and forsake unrighteousness they've engaged in the purest opportunity to align with God.  When you deny a myriad  number of potential choices of pleasure, pain and whathever else can be conceived and opt for God that's purity of free choice.   These are the folks that God is gathering to form his church.

The creation itself wasn't faulty, but the beings within it were given ability to disrupt it as they see fit.

God deemed that life is found in the blood and that ultimately by the shedding of the purest, most righteous blood could all be saved and aligned with him.  Why did he choose that vehicle?  Don't know.  Suppose he could've used chocolate milk, toasters, basketballs or something we can't conceive of.

Yet, his collected church will become part of his creation in which sin is removed because we've chosen this existence and to align with God.

all that didn't really answer the question. Why is the measuring stick, the criteria for a religion to be true, a god/human that sacrifices themselves in a symbol of some barbaric ritual? Why is that mandatory and couldn't there possibly be a God that DOESN'T have such a requirement exist just as easily as that one?

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2015, 01:58:36 PM »
It's kind of like saying "All music must have a guitar" because you happen to love music with guitars in it. In fact, you've never heard music without guitars. When the prospect is brought up that music could exist without guitars, you can't possibly comprehend it because you have always been taught that music has guitars. Every song you were exposed to had guitars, every band you ever saw had guitars.. so you have concluded all music has guitars. That died and rose thingy is your guitar..

avxo

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2015, 04:03:02 PM »
Yet, Buddha, Allah, Shiva, Vishnu and Mithra didn't die and rise and continue to reveal themselves to believers via the Holy Spirit like Jesus Christ.

You claim that your God died and those rose again and continued to reveal himself to believers. Until you can prove that claim, there's little difference from Buddha, Allah, Shiva, Vishnu and Mithra.


All others religions have similarity in their works-based nature and all stand in opposition to Jesus Christ who calls for folks to seek him and him alone for salvation and righteousness.

Forget, for a second, the fact that your claim - that out of all other religions only yours features a savior that calls people to him for salvation and righteousness - which is laughable. Even if that claim were true, I could trivially falsify it by starting a religion right now that claims the very same thing.

What's more important is that the claim you make isn't even universally accepted by all Christians. Take Roman Catholicism: while believing in Jesus Christ is required to achieve salvation, Catholics must purify their sins (either before or after death) to go to Heaven. Or Eastern Orthodox Christianity, where accepting Christ is only one part of an elaborate process that must be completed correctly in order to attain salvation.

So yeah, sure, your belief is that accepting Jesus Christ as your savior and lord is sufficient. But so what? It's only your belief. Other Christians believe differently and it's unclear which belief, if any, is better. Can you logically and conclusively prove that they're wrong and you're right?

 
It's no coincidence this world is full of religious competition and great promises provided you work to achieve and validate yourself.  These religions are demonically sourced despite the devout, sincere, highly motivated followers who many of which are probably very nice people.   What underlies all of them is direct opposition to Jesus Christ whether they realize it or not.

Yes, of course. All religions except, conveniently, the one you happen to believe in are wrong and demonically sourced... ::)

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2015, 04:54:56 PM »
all that didn't really answer the question. Why is the measuring stick, the criteria for a religion to be true, a god/human that sacrifices themselves in a symbol of some barbaric ritual? Why is that mandatory and couldn't there possibly be a God that DOESN'T have such a requirement exist just as easily as that one?

You've moved the goalposts a bit, but in short there is no greater act of love or sacrifice than laying down one's life for another.

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2015, 04:59:13 PM »
You claim that your God died and those rose again and continued to reveal himself to believers. Until you can prove that claim, there's little difference from Buddha, Allah, Shiva, Vishnu and Mithra.


Forget, for a second, the fact that your claim - that out of all other religions only yours features a savior that calls people to him for salvation and righteousness - which is laughable. Even if that claim were true, I could trivially falsify it by starting a religion right now that claims the very same thing.

What's more important is that the claim you make isn't even universally accepted by all Christians. Take Roman Catholicism: while believing in Jesus Christ is required to achieve salvation, Catholics must purify their sins (either before or after death) to go to Heaven. Or Eastern Orthodox Christianity, where accepting Christ is only one part of an elaborate process that must be completed correctly in order to attain salvation.

So yeah, sure, your belief is that accepting Jesus Christ as your savior and lord is sufficient. But so what? It's only your belief. Other Christians believe differently and it's unclear which belief, if any, is better. Can you logically and conclusively prove that they're wrong and you're right?

 
Yes, of course. All religions except, conveniently, the one you happen to believe in are wrong and demonically sourced... ::)

If you desire to know the risen God, Lord and savior Jesus Christ then you'll find your proof.

Despite your ability to falsify a religion you can't replicate the special revelation of the Holy Spirit in believers.

Catholics aren't Christians and Christians aren't Catholics.  Catholicism is a works-based faith and Christianity is not works-based......even if you find the notion of salvation and righteousness through Christ alone laughable....have a hearty chuckle.

avxo

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #73 on: October 27, 2015, 05:29:20 PM »
If you desire to know the risen God, Lord and savior Jesus Christ then you'll find your proof.

How convenient - if I believe in faith then I'll get proof. But then, what good is the proof?


Despite your ability to falsify a religion you can't replicate the special revelation of the Holy Spirit in believers.

No. You claim my religion can't replicate special revelation of the Holy Spirit. But I can produce a believer of my religion who received a special revelation from my religion's equivalent to the Holy Spirit.


Catholics aren't Christians and Christians aren't Catholics.  Catholicism is a works-based faith and Christianity is not works-based......even if you find the notion of salvation and righteousness through Christ alone laughable....have a hearty chuckle.

Of course - anyone who doesn't believe exactly what you believe isn't a Christian. Your particular interpretation - and only yours - is correct. Everything else is demonic, right?

It's a good thing those others don't claim the very same thing or else we might have a conundr... oh...  :-\

The Ugly

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2015, 07:10:14 PM »
If you desire to know the risen God, Lord and savior Jesus Christ then you'll find your proof.

Despite your ability to falsify a religion you can't replicate the special revelation of the Holy Spirit in believers.

Catholics aren't Christians and Christians aren't Catholics.  Catholicism is a works-based faith and Christianity is not works-based......even if you find the notion of salvation and righteousness through Christ alone laughable....have a hearty chuckle.

What would say, then, about the many who did desire, did open their hearts/surrender, and did believe/pray faithfully (or continue to, even), yet still never had any kind of personal revelation or Holy Spirit-type encounter?

Not sincere? Not trying hard enough? Lying?