Author Topic: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?  (Read 34392 times)

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2015, 07:55:30 PM »
How convenient - if I believe in faith then I'll get proof. But then, what good is the proof?


No. You claim my religion can't replicate special revelation of the Holy Spirit. But I can produce a believer of my religion who received a special revelation from my religion's equivalent to the Holy Spirit.


Of course - anyone who doesn't believe exactly what you believe isn't a Christian. Your particular interpretation - and only yours - is correct. Everything else is demonic, right?

It's a good things those others don't claim the very same thing or else we might have a conundr... oh...  :-\

If you desire to know God you will.  If you don't you won't.  

When it comes to the Holy Spirit you're out of your depth.  Lying isn't replicating...it's just lying.

If it's anti-Christ it's demonically motivated whether participants realize it or not.

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2015, 08:06:32 PM »
What would say, then, about the many who did desire, did open their hearts/surrender, and did believe/pray faithfully (or continue to, even), yet still never had any kind of personal revelation or Holy Spirit-type encounter?

Not sincere? Not trying hard enough? Lying?

In all honesty I don't know any believers that have whole heartedly sought the Lord and got nothing by way of the Holy Spirit.

I suppose I would explain the gospel again to help clarify, continue to encourage and uplift and pray with them.

I would try to better understand their motivation as I'm able and they allow.

The Ugly

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2015, 08:15:23 PM »
If you desire to know God you will.  If you don't you won't. 

When it comes to the Holy Spirit you're out of your depth.  Lying isn't replicating...it's just lying.

If it's anti-Christ it's demonically motivated.

Literally?

Real, active, gargoyle-type demons, you mean, like Pazuzu and such? Or metaphorical?

Also, are "non-Christian" and "anti-Christian" synonymous here? In other words, would secularism itself be considered demonic?

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2015, 08:26:48 PM »
Literally?

Real, active, gargoyle-type demons, you mean, like Pazuzu and such? Or metaphorical?

Also, are "non-Christian" and "anti-Christian" synonymous here? In other words, would secularism itself be considered demonic?

Demonic activity is part of spiritual warfare.  Strategy is employed.  Yet there is one goal - turning people from Christ.  The vast,  vast  majority of religions are works-based in that they preach that it's about what the individual does not what Christ has done for them that's important.   Take the focus completely off Christ and put the attention on the person and their works...anti-Christ and motivated by the enemies of God.

I've never seen a demon but I've felt them and been attacked and oppressed by them.   Very real and frightening.  You don't have to see angels or demons to clearly understand their reality.  I've felt way more than I care to share.  Still Christ is my shield and his name alone is powerful.  I have also experienced God's angelic host. I believe I've also had a face to face encounter with an angel.  Certainly experienced their unseen presence many times.    

No non-Christian is not always anti-Christian.  Sometimes it is but certainly not always.  Many aspects of the secular world do not stand opposed to Christ even though they aren't aligned with him either.

The Ugly

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2015, 09:06:59 PM »
In all honesty I don't know any believers that have whole heartedly sought the Lord and got nothing by way of the Holy Spirit.

I suppose I would explain the gospel again to help clarify, continue to encourage and uplift and pray with them.

I would try to better understand their motivation as I'm able and they allow.

You don't know of them, either?

Dude.

They either don't exist, then, or each fell short of "whole heartedly." Rigged game, brother, but thanks for the time.

The Ugly

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2015, 09:14:35 PM »
Within a half-hour, I get a text from my bro reminding me how great Sarah Palin is; then his wife wants my Facebook "Amen" for prayer in school.

Fuck it, maybe I'll osmosis my way in the Gates.

avxo

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2015, 09:32:08 PM »
If you desire to know God you will.  If you don't you won't.

If God existed and wanted me to know him, he'd make himself known. He hasn't, so either he doesn't exist or he doesn't want me to know him. Either way... why should I care?


When it comes to the Holy Spirit you're out of your depth.  Lying isn't replicating...it's just lying.

How can you tell they're lying? They genuinely believe what they believe. And how can they know you aren't lying? Can you prove the existence of this "Holy Spirit" to them? It goes against their beliefs and the truth that has been supernaturally revealed to them.


If it's anti-Christ it's demonically motivated whether participants realize it or not.

It's demonically motivated according to your beliefs. But your beliefs are meaningless to everyone else and have no bearing on reality.

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2015, 09:38:56 PM »
You don't knowcommittedof[/i] them, either?

Dude.

They either don't exist, then, or each fell short of "whole heartedly." Rigged game, brother, but thanks for the time.

I know believers that have never had powerful spiritual experiences like I have yet are fully committed to the Lord.  They've experienced the Holy Spirit  but not in overtly powerful ways.  My mother is such a person.

I don't really know of them either. 

I spoken to folks that say things like I was a Christian for decades and gave it up.  What I uncover is that these folks simply associated with a Christian organization and then identified as Christian,  or said they like Jesus the teacher but not Jesus God, or grew up in a Christian home and as an adult abandoned God because they realized they didn't believe or folks that claim to be generally spiritual blending all sorts of faiths including Christianity.  All claim some form of Christianity but don't understand the gospel and have no concept of the Holy Spirit.

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2015, 09:58:52 PM »
If God existed and wanted me to know him, he'd make himself known. He hasn't, so either he doesn't exist or he doesn't want me to know him. Either way... why should I care?


How can you tell they're lying? They genuinely believe what they believe. And how can they know you aren't lying? Can you prove the existence of this "Holy Spirit" to them? It goes against their beliefs and the truth that has been supernaturally revealed to them.


It's demonically motivated according to your beliefs. But your beliefs are meaningless to everyone else and have no bearing on reality.


That's the book of avxo.  It has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. I don't hate it but it isn't of God.

You should care if you desire to know God and want to live for him.  

For someone that doesn't care you devote a lot of time to discussion about that which you don't care and know is insane and completely false.  People that truly don't care don't bother.

Those that know the Holy Spirit don't have to ask those questions.

The vast majority of people past and present engage in some form of religion be it Christian or non-Christian.   It's safe to say it's very much a part of our reality and has definite meaning for countless folks.

And despite your steadfast objection to my meaningless, irrational, insane view of reality here you are day after day.  I find that interesting.  When I encounter insanity I distance myself.

The Ugly

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2015, 10:43:34 PM »
I know believers that have never had powerful spiritual experiences like I have yet are fully committed to the Lord.  They've experienced the Holy Spirit  but not in overtly powerful ways.  My mother is such a person.

I don't really know of them either.  

I spoken to folks that say things like I was a Christian for decades and gave it up.  What I uncover is that these folks simply associated with a Christian organization and then identified as Christian,  or said they like Jesus the teacher but not Jesus God, or grew up in a Christian home and as an adult abandoned God because they realized they didn't believe or folks that claim to be generally spiritual blending all sorts of faiths including Christianity.  All claim some form of Christianity but don't understand the gospel and have no concept of the Holy Spirit.

No, I'm talking about hardcore believers - pastors, even, who lost their faith, but still preach in order to pay the bills. There are support groups for these guys.

Many prominents came about their disbelief honestly, in efforts to strengthen faith. Reverse Strobels, I've no reason to doubt them. You're familiar with Ehrman, what about Dan Barker or Matt Dillahunty? Very similar stories.

avxo

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2015, 11:16:51 PM »
That's the book of avxo.  It has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. I don't hate it but it isn't of God.

Seeing how we haven't established a definition for God, much less proven than he exists, I'll go with my book. If your God wants to save me from himself, it's easy. He doesn't even need to send him son again. A telegram will do.


You should care if you desire to know God and want to live for him.

I don't desire to live for anyone else - I simply desire to live, in the here and now.


For someone that doesn't care you devote a lot of time to discussion about that which you don't care and know is insane and completely false.  People that truly don't care don't bother.

If your assumption is correct and I do care, your God must not care enough to save me, since he won't reveal himself to me. Of course, it's more likely that your assumption is, simply, not correct.


Those that know the Holy Spirit don't have to ask those questions.

Look at this from my point of view for just a second: you're claiming to be in touch with a spirit that communicates with you in a supernatural way. If I made such a claim, would you not ask me for proof? Would you not even consider the possibility that I'm hearing voices instead of actually communicating supernaturally with some kind of invisible apparition?


The vast majority of people past and present engage in some form of religion be it Christian or non-Christian.

And? If many people do it it must be right?


It's safe to say it's very much a part of our reality and has definite meaning for countless folks.

So if the vast majority of people believed that the earth was flat, then the reality would shift and the earth would transform from an oblate spheroid to a flat plane? And as to having definite meaning, if that's really the case, why can't a single person articulate this meaning with sufficient precision so that every rational person can be convinced?

TAnd despite your steadfast objection to my meaningless, irrational, insane view of reality here you are day after day.  I find that interesting.  When I encounter insanity I distance myself.

There's different kinds of crazy. I don't think you're dangerous or insane. I don't share your beliefs and assert that you cannot rationally prove them - something which I think you agree with. That doesn't mean we can't engage in discussion or debate. It's how we all learn and neither of us loses something by trying to convince the other.

In fact, I would argue that I stand to gain something: getting someone to throw off the shackles of superstition and the chains of faith. I gain a person who looks at the world rationally, objectively. Not as a place that's full of unanswerable questions and ruled by supernatural whim, but one that is full of questions and wonders to be examined and understood.

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2015, 07:10:25 AM »
Seeing how we haven't established a definition for God, much less proven than he exists, I'll go with my book. If your God wants to save me from himself, it's easy. He doesn't even need to send him son again. A telegram will do.


I don't desire to live for anyone else - I simply desire to live, in the here and now.


If your assumption is correct and I do care, your God must not care enough to save me, since he won't reveal himself to me. Or, it's also likely that your assumption is not correct.


Look at this from my point of you for just a second: you're claiming to be in touch with a spirit that communicates with you in a supernatural way. If I made such a claim, would you not ask me for proof and think me crazy?


And? If many people do it it must be right?


So if the vast majority of people believed that the earth was flat, then the reality would shift and the earth would transform from an oblate spheroid to a flat plane? And as to having definite meaning, if that's really the case, why can't a single person articulate this meaning with sufficient precision so that every rational person can be convinced?

There's different kinds of crazy. I don't think you're dangerous or insane. I don't share your beliefs and assert that you cannot rationally prove them - something which I think you agree with. That doesn't mean we can't engage in discussion or debate. It's how we all learn and neither of us loses something by trying to convince the other.

In fact, I would argue that I stand to gain something: getting someone to throw off the shackles of superstition and the chains of faith. I gain a person who looks at the world rationally, objectively. Not as a place that's full of unanswerable questions and ruled by supernatural whim, but one that is full of questions and wonders to be examined and understood.

Didn't read, not doing the line by line quote thing with you.....sorry.

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2015, 09:21:43 AM »
Didn't read, not doing the line by line quote thing with you.....sorry.

::)

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2015, 12:17:59 PM »
I know believers that have never had powerful spiritual experiences like I have yet are fully committed to the Lord.  They've experienced the Holy Spirit  but not in overtly powerful ways.  My mother is such a person.

I don't really know of them either. 

I spoken to folks that say things like I was a Christian for decades and gave it up.  What I uncover is that these folks simply associated with a Christian organization and then identified as Christian,  or said they like Jesus the teacher but not Jesus God, or grew up in a Christian home and as an adult abandoned God because they realized they didn't believe or folks that claim to be generally spiritual blending all sorts of faiths including Christianity.  All claim some form of Christianity but don't understand the gospel and have no concept of the Holy Spirit.

probably because you haven't really bothered to look or listen. I AM that guy... you now have met one

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2015, 12:20:38 PM »
Didn't read, not doing the line by line quote thing with you.....sorry.

childish...

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2015, 06:43:07 AM »
childish...

Well, if that's your conclusion then so be it.  

Despite the fact I've had the same repeat discussions since about 2011 with avxo doing the tit for tat, line by line, phrase by phrase, quote for quote discussion he prefers.   I don't hate the guy....I don't even dislike the guy.  Thing is I like avxo and if he needed my help he'd get it.  He isn't blocked on my PMs.  I don't ignore him.  Further, I respect his opinions and read what he has to say on other topics on the board.  

I've just already done all of the back and forth on the vast majority of these topics.....repeatedly.   I have enough experience and know that despite his intelligence he likes to have the last word and respond to anything and everything....fine, last word is his.  I've even previously and purposefully responded in the "quote for quote" fashion with a response of nothing or a "." to see if he would reply to even that and he did just because I responded.  Even with literally no words or images to discuss he still had a written reply.  

I just decided enough is enough for me and I'm called "childish" for it.  Ok.

Further, as I've also noted if someone is generally interested in pursuing God beyond "board debate" I'm available via PM.....door's open.

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2015, 07:26:22 AM »
Seeing how we haven't established a definition for God, much less proven than he exists, I'll go with my book. If your God wants to save me from himself, it's easy. He doesn't even need to send him son again. A telegram will do.


I don't desire to live for anyone else - I simply desire to live, in the here and now.


If your assumption is correct and I do care, your God must not care enough to save me, since he won't reveal himself to me. Of course, it's more likely that your assumption is, simply, not correct.


Look at this from my point of view for just a second: you're claiming to be in touch with a spirit that communicates with you in a supernatural way. If I made such a claim, would you not ask me for proof? Would you not even consider the possibility that I'm hearing voices instead of actually communicating supernaturally with some kind of invisible apparition?


And? If many people do it it must be right?


So if the vast majority of people believed that the earth was flat, then the reality would shift and the earth would transform from an oblate spheroid to a flat plane? And as to having definite meaning, if that's really the case, why can't a single person articulate this meaning with sufficient precision so that every rational person can be convinced?

There's different kinds of crazy. I don't think you're dangerous or insane. I don't share your beliefs and assert that you cannot rationally prove them - something which I think you agree with. That doesn't mean we can't engage in discussion or debate. It's how we all learn and neither of us loses something by trying to convince the other.

In fact, I would argue that I stand to gain something: getting someone to throw off the shackles of superstition and the chains of faith. I gain a person who looks at the world rationally, objectively. Not as a place that's full of unanswerable questions and ruled by supernatural whim, but one that is full of questions and wonders to be examined and understood.

Didn't want to be "childish" as agnostic said I was being so I responded again with the same stuff I've same repeatedly:

A definition has been clearly established long ago.  You just reject all definitions put forth.  First the requirement was it must be "cogent" according to your subjective opinion and when that was put forth then the goalposts were moved and the requirement of "it must universally accepted and understood" was applied.    

You can choose to live for yourself and whoever else you want until your final breathe.  I encourage you to choose God.

God left the door open for you to come to him.  He wants you to choose to seek him.  We discussed this many times.

Sure, I'd listen to all you have to say about the topic.  If you were only person to experience this and had nothing else to offer I'd be skeptical.  

Rationality is subjective and shaped by our presuppositions and worldviews.....basically grounded in individual opinions.  If you refuse to meet God on his terms as outlined in scripture and listen to and follow the testimonies of others (follow the evidence basically....of which I am apart) I'm helpless to assist you.  No desire to know God, then no God.

I don't think you're crazy or insane either.  I desired to know God and listened to the testimonies of others and decided to humbly surrender to him.  I didn't place and invent prerequisites and requirements on God or his body of believers.  I decided to trust in his word and the words of those who's lives had clearly been changed by him.

Exactly, you see a relationship with God as being shackled and imprisoned and forsaking all rationality and objectivity.  I've experienced the ultimate freedom that comes with a relationship with God and the clarity of purpose and understanding it brings.  I have objectivity grounded in a foundation of God.  You have no God so you're grounded in subjectivity of self.  Why should I value your opinion over God's ultimate authority?

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2015, 02:13:13 PM »
probably because you haven't really bothered to look or listen. I AM that guy... you now have met one

I knew you were a former believer and that you lost your faith and are now a soft atheist.  I was aware of that.  I did not know the specifics of your personal situation in regards to the current topic of the Holy Spirit.  

"probably because you haven't really bothered to look or listen"

You do realize that in the last 3 years I've probably answered your same questions 20 different times, right?  I even respond to answers with quotes from the previous instance in which you've asked the question and I've answered.  Seeing a touch of irony here?  

Further, do you know how often my questions to atheists and agnostics go unanswered or dodged completely?  Almost 100% of the time....with the exception of maybe 3 folks (yourself included in that 3).

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2015, 02:16:14 PM »
Well, if that's your conclusion then so be it.  

Despite the fact I've had the same repeat discussions since about 2011 with avxo doing the tit for tat, line by line, phrase by phrase, quote for quote discussion he prefers.   I don't hate the guy....I don't even dislike the guy.  Thing is I like avxo and if he needed my help he'd get it.  He isn't blocked on my PMs.  I don't ignore him.  Further, I respect his opinions and read what he has to say on other topics on the board.  

I've just already done all of the back and forth on the vast majority of these topics.....repeatedly.   I have enough experience and know that despite his intelligence he likes to have the last word and respond to anything and everything....fine, last word is his.  I've even previously and purposefully responded in the "quote for quote" fashion with a response of nothing or a "." to see if he would reply to even that and he did just because I responded.  Even with literally no words or images to discuss he still had a written reply.  

I just decided enough is enough for me and I'm called "childish" for it.  Ok.

Further, as I've also noted if someone is generally interested in pursuing God beyond "board debate" I'm available via PM.....door's open.

too lengthy, didn't read it

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2015, 02:18:00 PM »
I knew you were a former believer and that you lost your faith and are now a soft atheist.  I was aware of that.  I did not know the specifics of your personal situation in regards to the current topic of the Holy Spirit.  

"probably because you haven't really bothered to look or listen"

You do realize that in the last 3 years I've probably answered your same questions 20 different times, right?  I even respond to answers with quotes from the previous instance in which you've asked the question and I've answered.  Seeing a touch of irony here?  

Further, do you know how often my questions to atheists and agnostics go unanswered or dodged completely?  Almost 100% of the time....with the exception of maybe 3 folks (yourself included in that 3).

That's a pretty high percentage. You literally get no answers from atheists and agnostics when you ask questions.... :o

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2015, 02:19:02 PM »
too lengthy, didn't read it

big shocker there

Man of Steel

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2015, 02:20:58 PM »
That's a pretty high percentage. You literally get no answers from atheists and agnostics when you ask questions.... :o

Almost 100% of the time I get nothing in return.  Oh I answer almost all of their questions (sometimes multiple times), but when the table is turned they either run for the hills, switch to mockery, tell me they're "too busy right now", tell me it "isn't worth their time" or give me one last "hit and run".

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2015, 02:21:37 PM »
Almost 100% of the time I get nothing in return.  Oh I answer almost all of their questions (sometimes multiple times), but when the table is turned they either run for the hills, switch to mockery, tell me they're "too busy right now" or give me one last "hit and run".

Can you give me a couple examples?

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2015, 03:07:25 PM »
Can you give me a couple examples?

Here's a few over the course of the last few months:

Asked deadz a follow-up question after I answered his questions….no response:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=585872.0

Asked Josh follow-ups and he wouldn’t answer.  He then PM’d me to criticize me privately and I responded and told me never to PM him again LOL....that I’m the only board member that actually scares him LOL.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=580431.msg8240594#msg8240594

In this thread I ask paradoxno1 some follow-up questions….no response…hit and run:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=582732.msg8239413#msg8239413

In this thread phreak comes into an attack and I respond with a question….no response….hit and run:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=580186.100

In this thread I respond to TA’s comments and ask a question….no response:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=578383.50

In this thread I respond to fortress’ comment with a simple question….no response:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=578383.50

In this thread I respond to Bigro (not an atheist but not Christian) and ask questions….he responds with a dodge and no answers:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=578270.50

In this thread I give a thorough reply to Darren Avey’s questions and although I don’t ask any questions there’s no response:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=576418.100

I used to do a lot of 5-on-1 or even 8-on-1 back and forths with folks in years past and got no answers to questions.  

Folks just don't go after me like that anymore.

Agnostic007

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Re: Atheists: Did Something Come From Nothing?
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2015, 03:33:01 PM »
first example, you asked "what are sins?" and then added some more comments. He had already answered your original question, so it wasn't about not wanting to respond to questions. I think your follow up question really didn't warrant a response. It would be like asking "What are apples"? Everyone pretty much understands what apples are.


2nd example it appears he actually did respond, as you said he contacted you via PM about it

In your Fortress example (#6), he answers with

   
It promotes people into a type of gradual brainwashing that leads to delusion and eventual chronic mental illness.

That's just a random sampling.. the Avery example you said you didn't ask a question, he just didn't respond to your post, we can't count that in your percentage estimate.

I have to say, I think you have selective memory when trying to recall the responses you get just based on a couple of your own examples.