Author Topic: Does God Have Free Will?  (Read 17196 times)

The Ugly

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Does God Have Free Will?
« on: October 20, 2015, 10:16:26 PM »
Or is He omniscient?

Can't be both, as they're mutually exclusive.

tbombz

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2015, 11:03:26 PM »
God's free will is limited to deeds of love, righteousness, mercy, etc.

God is not free to do evil.

Beefjake

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2015, 11:06:30 PM »
Whoa!
It would suck to be a God and still somebody tells you what you can and cannot do.

Primemuscle

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2015, 11:17:23 PM »
Or is He omniscient?

Can't be both, as they're mutually exclusive.

He or she is omniscient. Many people cannot imagine God doing anything evil, including me. This depends on one's concept of God, however. Some believe God punishes sinners while other folks see God as hopeful, loving and forgiving.

The Ugly

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2015, 11:19:48 PM »
God's free will is limited to deeds of love, righteousness, mercy, etc.

God is not free to do evil.

So not omniscient, then?

The Ugly

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2015, 11:21:47 PM »
He or she is omniscient. Many people cannot imagine God doing anything evil, including me. This depends on one's concept of God, however. Some believe God punishes sinners while other folks see God as hopeful, loving and forgiving.


Really? Interested to hear your definition of evil, then, unless you're just unfamiliar with the book. Great Flood, for instance, no evil there? All those innocent children and infants; the thousands, perhaps, in utero ...

Reminds me, most Pro-Lifers worship the biggest abortionist in history. Lost irony, I imagine. Anyway, examples of evil are endless, Google it.

avxo

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2015, 12:05:02 AM »
God's free will is limited to deeds of love, righteousness, mercy, etc.

God is not free to do evil.

So yours is a limited God? What good is that?

Agnostic007

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2015, 07:37:34 AM »
He or she is omniscient. Many people cannot imagine God doing anything evil, including me. This depends on one's concept of God, however. Some believe God punishes sinners while other folks see God as hopeful, loving and forgiving.

God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.
GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."

EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
 to show that he is Lord;
 to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
 to show his great power;
 to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
 to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
 to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.
EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.
EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten close to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.
NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and show "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."

JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho--men, women, and children--with the edge of the sword.

JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."

JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."

JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.

JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."

JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.

JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.

JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.

JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.

1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.

1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.

1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."


1SA 27:8-11 "David left neither man nor woman alive ....". (Note: This implies that children and infants were included in the slaughter.)

2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."

2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.
2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.


2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.
1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.

1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.

1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.

1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.


I would say you have a pretty high tolerance of evil

The Ugly

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2015, 08:43:04 AM »
Yeah, just seemed unnecessary. Uninformed comment is all.

Man of Steel

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2015, 09:58:54 AM »
God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.
GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."

EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
 to show that he is Lord;
 to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
 to show his great power;
 to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
 to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
 to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.
EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.
EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten close to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.
NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and show "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."

JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho--men, women, and children--with the edge of the sword.

JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."

JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."

JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.

JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."

JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.

JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.

JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.

JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.

1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.

1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.

1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."


1SA 27:8-11 "David left neither man nor woman alive ....". (Note: This implies that children and infants were included in the slaughter.)

2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."

2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.
2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.


2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.
1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.

1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.

1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.

1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.


I would say you have a pretty high tolerance of evil

Here you go folks....this will save you time:

http://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

Agnostic007

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2015, 01:58:33 PM »
What does Paul temporarily blinding someone have to do with Gods atrocities? The original list contains some stretches...

avxo

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2015, 02:22:02 PM »
He or she is omniscient.

Is he now? Is that why he laments that the Israelites "have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not" in  (Hosea 8:4)? Because he's omniscient?

Others have already addressed the "cannot imagine God doing anything evil" bit.

The Ugly

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2015, 02:49:10 PM »
Point being, ya can't freely choose if you already know the outcome. Another contradiction the authors didn't think through.

Primemuscle

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2015, 10:56:31 PM »

Really? Interested to hear your definition of evil, then, unless you're just unfamiliar with the book. Great Flood, for instance, no evil there? All those innocent children and infants; the thousands, perhaps, in utero ...

Reminds me, most Pro-Lifers worship the biggest abortionist in history. Lost irony, I imagine. Anyway, examples of evil are endless, Google it.


Just so you're clear on this matter, I believe the bible is nothing more than folklore. If any of it is based on facts, those facts were long ago convoluted to suit the whims and ulterior motives of various religions.

tbombz

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2015, 10:57:37 PM »
Part of the problem many people have when trying to understand the Bible is, number one, they don't believe the Bible.

Number two: they only do superficial research.



The first problem, that a lack of belief necessarily causes a lack of understanding, should be evident to everyone who has read the Bible (even those who dont believe). Thats because the Bible says this plainly:

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 1 Corinthians 2:14



The second problem, a lack of deep study, is even an issue with believers. Because the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, much of the style, language, syntax, etc from the original text does not translate perfectly. You all are well aware of the fact that there are some words, and some ways of expressing certain ideas, that are exclusive to particular cultures, languages, etc; and do not have perfect parallels in other languages and cultures. This is why most Pastors and nearly all Bible scholars are required to study basic Hebrew and Greek, and are trained n the field of 'exegesis' as well.



MOS and I will do our best to provide you all with responses to your questions, but these are some of the issues that must be kept in mind.





Is he now? Is that why he laments that the Israelites "have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not" in  (Hosea 8:4)? Because he's omniscient?

Others have already addressed the "cannot imagine God doing anything evil" bit.

That was a good translation of Hosea 8:4 back in 1600 when the King James Bible was written, however it is not a good translation any longer because our understanding of the phrase "I knew it not" is different than it was then.

Here is how modern translators write that verse:

They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval.   Hosea 8:4 NIV  


Regards,
-Taylor




Primemuscle

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2015, 11:05:40 PM »
Part of the problem many people have when trying to understand the Bible is, number one, they don't believe the Bible.

Number two: they only do superficial research.



The first problem, that a lack of belief necessarily causes a lack of understanding, should be evident to everyone who has read the Bible (even those who dont believe). Thats because the Bible says this plainly:

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 1 Corinthians 2:14



The second problem, a lack of deep study, is even an issue with believers. Because the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, much of the style, language, syntax, etc from the original text does not translate perfectly. You all are well aware of the fact that there are some words, and some ways of expressing certain ideas, that are exclusive to particular cultures, languages, etc; and do not have perfect parallels in other languages and cultures. This is why most Pastors and nearly all Bible scholars are required to study basic Hebrew and Greek, and are trained n the field of 'exegesis' as well.



MOS and I will do our best to provide you all with responses to your questions, but these are some of the issues that must be kept in mind.





That was a good translation of Hosea 8:4 back in 1600 when the King James Bible was written, however it is not a good translation any longer because our understanding of the phrase "I knew it not" is different than it was then.

Here is how modern translators write that verse:

They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval.   Hosea 8:4 NIV  


Regards,
-Taylor





Tbombz,

I am really happy for you that you've found God. It seems to have made you a better person. That being said, what I believe or don't is a personal matter.


tbombz

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2015, 11:13:29 PM »
Tbombz,

I am really happy for you that you've found God. It seems to have made you a better person. That being said, what I believe or don't is a personal matter.



Hey Prime,

Thanks for the kind words.

I agree with you: personal beliefs are indeed personal.

Not sure why you took the time to make that comment, though.

Regards,

-Taylor



The Ugly

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2015, 11:14:38 PM »
Just so you're clear on this matter, I believe the bible is nothing more than folklore. If any of it is based on facts, those facts were long ago convoluted to suit the whims and ulterior motives of various religions.

Of course, totally agree. But your "cannot imagine" malarkey tells me you've never read the book; in which case, how did you decide?

Primemuscle

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2015, 11:32:06 PM »
Of course, totally agree. But your "cannot imagine" malarkey tells me you've never read the book; in which case, how did you decide?

How I decided to believe as I do is a good question. You are quite right, I have not read the bible. -Guess I have no business commenting on it.

If I were to choose one religion to follow, I'd pick Religious Science. http://religiousscience.us. As my late wife, a devout Catholic, defined it, it is more a philosophy than a religion in any traditional sense. It's been many years since I have been an active participant. Perhaps it is time for me to get involved again.

In no way do I claim to have "found the way" much less the only way. People should believe as they choose and in what works for them in their lives, assuming their beliefs wish no harm to others who believe differently.

I have zero tolerance when it comes to other people/religions endeavoring to convert people to their beliefs, particularly when I'm the one to whom they are preaching.


The Ugly

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2015, 12:14:09 AM »
Part of the problem many people have when trying to understand the Bible is, number one, they don't believe the Bible.

Number two: they only do superficial research.



The first problem, that a lack of belief necessarily causes a lack of understanding, should be evident to everyone who has read the Bible (even those who dont believe). Thats because the Bible says this plainly:

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 1 Corinthians 2:14



The second problem, a lack of deep study, is even an issue with believers. Because the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, much of the style, language, syntax, etc from the original text does not translate perfectly. You all are well aware of the fact that there are some words, and some ways of expressing certain ideas, that are exclusive to particular cultures, languages, etc; and do not have perfect parallels in other languages and cultures. This is why most Pastors and nearly all Bible scholars are required to study basic Hebrew and Greek, and are trained n the field of 'exegesis' as well.



MOS and I will do our best to provide you all with responses to your questions, but these are some of the issues that must be kept in mind.





That was a good translation of Hosea 8:4 back in 1600 when the King James Bible was written, however it is not a good translation any longer because our understanding of the phrase "I knew it not" is different than it was then.

Here is how modern translators write that verse:

They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval.   Hosea 8:4 NIV  


Regards,
-Taylor





Oh, goodness. So you can't really understand the Word until you accept the Word. Very Nancy Pelosi, don't ya think? And, again, you see no problem with this.

Honestly, He should've just given us half a brain or condemned critical thinkers before the bullshit charade. Think it's merely coincidence they put such a premium on FAITH? Belief without evidence, right? Because this is important?

Ridiculous to think an all-everything God would so cherish ignorance, but it makes perfect sense when you consider the actual authors.


The Ugly

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2015, 12:38:10 AM »
How I decided to believe as I do is a good question. You are quite right, I have not read the bible. -Guess I have no business commenting on it.

If I were to chose one religion to follow, I'd chose Religious Science. http://religiousscience.us. As my late wife, a devout Catholic, defined it, it is more a philosophy than a religion in any traditional sense. It's been many years since I have been an active participant. Perhaps it is time for me to get involved again.

In no way do I claim to have "found the way" much less the only way. People should believe as they choose and in what works for them in their lives, assuming their beliefs wish no harm to others who believe differently.

I have zero tolerance when it comes to other people/religions endeavoring to convert people to their beliefs, particularly when I'm the one to whom they are preaching.

Stick with "Science," drop "Religion," and enjoy yourself. Find meaning in the people you see, places you go, things you learn, and music you hear. All ya need, Pops.

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2015, 01:01:34 AM »
That was a good translation of Hosea 8:4 back in 1600 when the King James Bible was written, however it is not a good translation any longer because our understanding of the phrase "I knew it not" is different than it was then.

Amazing... the immutable, inspired word of God depends on translations and our understanding. Why couldn't God have phrased things unambiguously to begin with?


Here is how modern translators write that verse:

Oh well, if that's how they write it... Just one question: how do you know the modern translators aren't wrong?

The Ugly

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2015, 10:30:03 AM »
Amazing... the immutable, inspired word of God depends on translations and our understanding. Why couldn't God have phrased things unambiguously to begin with?


Oh well, if that's how they write it... Just one question: how do you know the modern translators aren't wrong?

Divine guidance, bro. He certainly wouldn't allow anyone to fumble His opus.

Agnostic007

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2015, 07:46:53 PM »
Divine guidance, bro. He certainly wouldn't allow anyone to fumble His opus.

again.....

tbombz

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Re: Does God Have Free Will?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2015, 11:15:02 PM »
There's a couple thoughts here I would like to address, but I think if you guys really want to understand the Bible, it would help to frsti understand that we are truly depraved creatures, victims of our own rebellion,  separated from a holy God who will not force the disobedient to behave.   Faith is central because thats how we reconnect with the invisible God. Without faith God does not exist, with faith He does exist (I am speaking in human terms). Faith is absolutely necessary because it gives us the proper attitude and perspective.  There are also other legal matters... God cannot bless the guilty with understanding and etc  unless their sins have been covered, through faith, by the cross of Jesus.