didnt catch the debate

[pellius]

well the serious people accept that there's been little to no growth in wages for 40 years.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

here's what an expert says about the bush years.

I don't know about the growth of wages in the last 40 years but I do know the tremendous increase in quality of life in the last 40 years. I was there.

People today have no idea, no conception, no clue, as to how much better today, in regard to economic prosperity and lifestyle. This has nothing to do with whether or not we are better people or a better society but what a teenager has today compared to what I had as a teenager is not comparable. Just something like eating out. In my day, eating out was an event and a luxury. Our family got dressed up to go to Zippy's drive in for a plate lunch and we planned weeks in advance to go to McDonald's when one opened in our neighborhood to get their much touted Big Macs. I remember as we piled into the station wagon my neighborhood friends were telling each other that we were going out to get Big Macs. Seems like most people eat out practically everyday now.

And the idea of a parent buying their kid a car just was not even a consideration. The ambitious ones worked and got a jalopy that they worked on every weekend to keep it running. I see kids with their cell phones, lap tops, fashionable shoes and clothes. They seem to always have extra money for fancy haircuts, hair color, tattoos. I remember asking my friend what he got for his birthday and he said, "One shirt and one 'nother one." Not having to wear hand me downs and having your own shirt bought just for you was a  bit of treat.

And to keep it bbing related no parent would pay for their kid to go to a gym. There were gyms and I save up all year so I could afford 3 months (the whole summer) to train at Mit's gym (Mit was Arnold's go to guy here in Hawaii and was part of his entourage at his wedding). It was an hour and a half bus ride and I was the only kid there. I remember Mit making fun of me for doing cable crossovers which suddenly became very popular because Pumping Iron was out at the time. He said that a skinny kid like me should  stick to the bench and squats and if I ever got any muscle then I can go "finishing" exercises. He'd be sued today for hurting my feelings.

Now kids today have access to state of the art equipment which they use mostly to sit and watch TV or text on their cells. The rest of us saved up for a Sear's 110 lb barbell set and trained at home with a couple of buddies and actually used that one barbell we saved up for. 

Economic prosperity is much greater today than decades past in virtually every aspect of life. Only the very rich 40 years ago had more than one car. Nowadays driveways are routinely packed with 3-4 cars as their kids today don't move out on their own until their thirties. For the first time in history there are now more TVs per household and people living there. And we're no talking the old antennae Philco TVs that we had.

[mr.turbo]

I don't know about the growth of wages in the last 40 years but I do know the tremendous increase in quality of life in the last 40 years. I was there.

People today have no idea, no conception, no clue, as to how much better today, in regard to economic prosperity and lifestyle. This has nothing to do with whether or not we are better people or a better society but what a teenager has today compared to what I had as a teenager is not comparable. Just something like eating out. In my day, eating out was an event and a luxury. Our family got dressed up to go to Zippy's drive in for a plate lunch and we planned weeks in advance to go to McDonald's when one opened in our neighborhood to get their much touted Big Macs. I remember as we piled into the station wagon my neighborhood friends were telling each other that we were going out to get Big Macs. Seems like most people eat out practically everyday now.

And the idea of a parent buying their kid a car just was not even a consideration. The ambitious ones worked and got a jalopy that they worked on every weekend to keep it running. I see kids with their cell phones, lap tops, fashionable shoes and clothes. They seem to always have extra money for fancy haircuts, hair color, tattoos. I remember asking my friend what he got for his birthday and he said, "One shirt and one 'nother one." Not having to wear hand me downs and having your own shirt bought just for you was a  bit of treat.

And to keep it bbing related no parent would pay for their kid to go to a gym. There were gyms and I save up all year so I could afford 3 months (the whole summer) to train at Mit's gym (Mit was Arnold's go to guy here in Hawaii and was part of his entourage at his wedding). It was an hour and a half bus ride and I was the only kid there. I remember Mit making fun of me for doing cable crossovers which suddenly became very popular because Pumping Iron was out at the time. He said that a skinny kid like me should  stick to the bench and squats and if I ever got any muscle then I can go "finishing" exercises. He'd be sued today for hurting my feelings.

Now kids today have access to state of the art equipment which they use mostly to sit and watch TV or text on their cells. The rest of us saved up for a Sear's 110 lb barbell set and trained at home with a couple of buddies and actually used that one barbell we saved up for. 

Economic prosperity is much greater today than decades past in virtually every aspect of life. Only the very rich 40 years ago had more than one car. Nowadays driveways are routinely packed with 3-4 cars as their kids today don't move out on their own until their thirties. For the first time in history there are now more TVs per household and people living there. And we're no talking the old antennae Philco TVs that we had.

Certainly the domestic situation improved following the war.  The baby boomers did much better than their parents but the improvements you describe all went to the baby boomers. There's a reason why the generation of kids that followed still depend on their parents. You can't think 30 year olds living with their parents are doing that out of choice when their parents had 3 kids, a car, a house and a dog at the same age. More tv's? Cable crossovers? a cellphone? The kids don't own those cars in the driveway. Nobody goes to the US with the hopes of getting decent health care either (except rich folks). That's not progress. It's a mixed picture.

Was there a period of growth  after the war? Yes, but it's been over for a long time.

Looking forward to rebutting more of your outrageous claims about the benign nature of US foreign policy.  Please bring more of these outbursts. I recall you went into an extreme tizzy about the how the US defeated fascism hahah or the noble battle against communism waged by the great ronald reagan.

Are you ready to reexamine these positions or will you remain steadfast against the torrent of contrary evidence?

[pellius]

Certainly the domestic situation improved following the war.  The baby boomers did much better than their parents but the improvements you describe all went to the baby boomers. There's a reason why the generation of kids that followed still depend on their parents. You can't think 30 year olds living with their parents are doing that out of choice when their parents had 3 kids, a car, a house and a dog at the same age. More tv's? Cable crossovers? a cellphone? The kids don't own those cars in the driveway. Nobody goes to the US with the hopes of getting decent health care either (except rich folks). That's not progress. It's a mixed picture.

Was there a period of growth  after the war? Yes, but it's been over for a long time.

Looking forward to rebutting more of your outrageous claims about the benign nature of US foreign policy.  Please bring more of these outbursts. I recall you went into an extreme tizzy about the how the US defeated fascism hahah or the noble battle against communism waged by the great ronald reagan.

Are you ready to reexamine these positions or will you remain steadfast against the torrent of contrary evidence?

Yes they do live with their parents by choice. They do it because it's easier and they can keep more of their money. How do I know? I ask them. They say "Why should I pay rent when I can live at home for free?" The idea of being an adult and making it on your own doesn't even dawn on them. None are willing to scrap it nowadays and get that tiny studio apartment and have a go at your own. And whether they own their luxuries is not the point. It's that it is provided for them.

(If there are any readers left on this thread, putting personalities and personal feelings to the side, does anybody agree with Turbo?)

[tom joad]

(from the posts i've read) Turbo brings the truth without any ingrained bias for or against the United States of America.

[pellius]

(from the posts i've read) Turbo brings the truth without any ingrained bias for or against the United States of America.

So America has never done any good  at all in this world?

[tom joad]

So America has never done any good  at all in this world?

I haven't read every word of every post, but is he saying that?

Most of the time, it acts in (what it thinks is) its self-interest ... sometimes that's good ... sometimes that's bad.

(As a Canadian, i'm happy to have the U.S. as our neighbour.)

[The Ugly]

I haven't read every word of every post, but is he saying that?

Most of the time, it acts in (what it thinks is) its self-interest ... sometimes that's good ... sometimes that's bad.

(As a Canadian, i'm happy to have the U.S. as our neighbour.)

Seems you maybe haven't read any word of any post. Very anti-Yank.