Are people that brainwashed they dont even stop and question their religion?

[Man of Steel]

Why do you feel "not secure" to begin with?

That's in my testimony that I linked you to earlier today.

In short I did not surrender to God when I had doubts about who he was.  I lived on my terms and lived for the world.  When I finally came humbly to God in surrender my insecurities vanished because of exactly what I stated in my testimony.

My confidence in the truth of God is unsettling to some....I get that.  I don't make excuses for it either.

[Chidoman]

religious people and their BULLSHIT...It's Never Ending.....

[SF1900]

Cool, I have been investigating it, really resonating with where I am at in life currently.
I found this site, good info here. http://www.philosophytalk.org/community/blog/laura-maguire/2015/04/camus-and-absurdity

But I found a comment that claimed the consensus of his friends was that Camus, too, committed suicide.

This is the problem I found with digging deep into existential issues, finding out that it might be true that life is hopeless, meaningless and essentially not worth living.

I read that he died in a car accident. No mention of suicide.

Anyway, I think your conflating the terms hopeless, meaningless, and not worth living.  Life is inherently meaningless. I mean, I don't believe there is any inherent meaning that life has to offer. The universe, in and of itself, is devoid of meaning. There is no inherent purpose or plan to our lives. However, there is hope and there is reason for living. You just have to find that hope and reason for living to make your life meaningful.

Another author you may want to read is Viktor Frankl. Frankl wrote, "Mans Search for Meaning." He was an existential psychotherapy and survived the Holocaust.

“Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather must recognize that it is he who is asked. In a word, each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible.”
― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning

I think people pose the question in the wrong direction, as Frankl stated. Do not ask "What is the meaning of life?" By asking such a question, you will be left with no answer. The universe will not provide you with an answer. Who will?  Instead, realize that you're the one who is being asked, and you must respond to this question! Camus response would be a revolt against the absurd. Frankl would say we can find meaning in three ways: (1) by creating a work or doing a deed; (2) by experiencing something or encountering someone; and (3) by the attitude we take toward unavoidable suffering" and that "everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances.

[Man of Steel]

Silly. Why would you assume he doesn't? Dude knows the routine.

MoS, sort of an odd question. Christians believe the soul's eternal, right? We were all at God's side prior to our earthly birth. Ok, this is the awkward part: Why do you suppose God would take some already perfect soul, which has basked perfectly content in God's loving warmth for time immemorial, only to dump it in, say, some poor Sub-Saharan tribesman for the shortest of windows (eternally speaking), knowing full well this man will never hear the words "Jesus Christ" before the lions or cannibals send him back to the nonphysical, where he will henceforth be condemned to eternal suffering for never having the slightest access to the correct earthly gameplan?

Seems absolutely bizarre (and sadistically unfair) to f up what was already perfect, when that poor soul expressed no interest in ever leaving God's side. How does one reconcile this with Divine love and justice?

I believe when we exit this life we then enter eternity.  I don't believe any part of us existed prior to our births (body or soul).  I know that God is aware of our future existence, but nothing beyond that.

Folks that die without hearing the gospel, reading the scriptures or hearing the name Jesus Christ will be fairly judged based upon what has been revealed to them in their lives and their response to that revelation.   Scripture indicates everyone knows the reality of God via his creation so they are without excuse.   Again, I believe that God is a fair and righteous judge and that the more someone knows the more severe their judgment will be.

[Man of Steel]

So, do you believe God is a person?  Do you believe God has a plan for everyone, but intervenes from above?  Do you believe there is only one pathway to God, and the only true religion is yours?  Why does God let innocent babies, who have never 'sinned' die of horrible diseases, or birth defects?  Why doesn't he intervene to save people from dying in plane crashes or car wrecks?  Is he taking a nap when those things happen?  Why doesn't he intervene to stop natural disasters like the tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands in Indonesia years ago?  How can he be a loving God, yet let these horrible things happen all the time?   

I believe God is a divine being that expresses his divinity via three coequal, coeternal persons in Father, Son and Spirit.

I believe God has will, a plan and is sovereign.   I believe he can intervene based on his good will and purposes and as a demonstration of who he is.

There are many paths that lead to God.  There's only one way to salvation and that's Jesus Christ.  There is only one God and that's the triune God of the bible grounded in Jesus Christ.

He does intervene in some plane crashes and car wrecks.  I've heard and read many stories.  Why not all?  I don't know.

How do you know he never intervenes in natural disasters? 

The result of our sin is pain, disease, decay and death in the world.  The answer to sin is Jesus Christ.

[da_vinci]

Who cares why its all here. Who cares if this universe was made for a purpose. It most likely wasn't.

You should read about the philosophical doctrine of "Absurdism."

"The absurd is born out of this confrontation between the human need and the unreasonable silence of the world."

"But if life is absurd, what is the point of living on? Why shouldn’t we commit suicide and hasten our fate? Using the Greek myth of Sisyphus as a metaphor, Camus attempts to answer this question and present an alternative to suicide. How to live with the consciousness of this absurdity of life is the central question of Camus’s philosophy. “Does the absurd dictate death?”[4] Camus believes that the answer is no. The appropriate response to the experience of Absurd, Camus suggests, is to live in full consciousness of it. He rejects all those things which erase the consciousness of absurd, such as religious faith, suicide and Existentialism."

Great. I should read some of that, interesting. I've came to a similar conclusion on my own tho (to live with this awareness of absurdity and I just don't give a shit anymore).

[da_vinci]

My point is simple: organized religion is not necessary to follow Christ.   Following Christ is not about organized religion....it's about saving souls.   

Fellowship is a good thing and some do so in an organized church, some gather in a small group in someone's home.

Honestly, I learned the vast majority of what I know because of independent study.  I listen to a ton of debate.  I listen to lectures.  I read books.   I study online.

I understand what I do about sin because of many things:  reading scripture, reading books, listening to sermons, listening to lectures, fellowship with other believers, attending church, prayer and meditation......all this has contributed.

Once again - how would you know ANYTHING at all about Jesus if not RELIGION that made him known? Or are you twisting the faith as it suits you better? Do you realize that "believeing in god"  without clear guidelines of HOW to do that means just that - believing that "he"  exists? What's the point then? You are either following a religious doctrine or you are simply believing that something exists, but that's it, makes no sense.

[da_vinci]

I suggested that you believe in Santa?  I asked you to become an alcoholic?  Huh?

So as teen you believed in God.  Tell me about your experience with the Holy Spirit or when you gave your live in humble surrender to the Lord Jesus Christ.  Tell me about your relationship with God.  Tell me about your prayer life.  Tell me then how you found out it was for weak people.

Yes, that's exactly what you suggest me - to stop taking charge in my life and start "buzzing" myself with faith (which is equal to the effect of being drunk). The thing is - I'm succesfully navigating through life and I don't need any "god", faith or anything else, I simply do not care, if I die - I die, if I win I win, if I suffer I suffer, I'm ready to take anything that comes my way with a head up high, and I've done that many times already. That's the difference betweet strong and weak. Weak indulge in various ways to numb their frustrations of not being a le to deal with life, that is exactly: either alcohol, drugs OR religion. A false/artificial sense of "all is good". All is good when you effectively survive on this planet, because that's really the only point of life at all. You clearly weren't able to achieve that, just like many other weak animals, so you became angry and depressed and the relief that was suitable for you came out to be religion, that is of course better that being on antidepressants.
I don't have much to tell you about my "experience". My grandparents were somewhat religious and I just like many kids believed in the authority of theirs and followed what they told me, not like you have much choice as a kid. It's exactly just like with santa - you believe it because yoyr parents say it's true (and it's a nice/appealing idea, just like god), but there comes an age of reason and you figure out it's all bullshit. My intellect has been way too high to believe in god for any longer than that and I have been way too strong minded individual to relie on an imaginary friend. I've always took charge in my life and blamed only myself if something went wrong, congradulated myself too if I succeeded. Weak people doesn't act like that, that's how I found out that god is for weak, who can't manage to deal with life with a sober mind, they need some kind of artificial "joy" to keep them going. And I'm fully aware that the "joy" comes when my life is balanced and I'm making a progress in it.

[da_vinci]

That's in my testimony that I linked you to earlier today.

In short I did not surrender to God when I had doubts about who he was.  I lived on my terms and lived for the world.  When I finally came humbly to God in surrender my insecurities vanished because of exactly what I stated in my testimony.

My confidence in the truth of God is unsettling to some....I get that.  I don't make excuses for it either.

I still can't understand why have you felt "not secure", what do you think were the exact mistakes of your parents/family who did not prapare you well for this life?

[SuperTed]

I think most religious people follow religion for cultural reasons more than anything. Your parents follow a religion, your family all practice that religion and your ancestors have been part of that religion for hundreds of years - therefore, you go along with it.
I'm not really a spiritual person but I still identify myself as a Catholic and occasionally go to church because of these cultural links.
I do think religion is a useful tool for survival and played an important role to helping build societies - since it create a bond between groups and people through having shared beliefs.
I also think the decline of Christianity could prove to be very damaging to the long term future of Western Europe but that's another debate altogether.

[Radical Plato]

I read that he died in a car accident. No mention of suicide.

Anyway, I think your conflating the terms hopeless, meaningless, and not worth living.  Life is inherently meaningless. I mean, I don't believe there is any inherent meaning that life has to offer. The universe, in and of itself, is devoid of meaning. There is no inherent purpose or plan to our lives. However, there is hope and there is reason for living. You just have to find that hope and reason for living to make your life meaningful.

Another author you may want to read is Viktor Frankl. Frankl wrote, "Mans Search for Meaning." He was an existential psychotherapy and survived the Holocaust.

“Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather must recognize that it is he who is asked. In a word, each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible.”
― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning

I think people pose the question in the wrong direction, as Frankl stated. Do not ask "What is the meaning of life?" By asking such a question, you will be left with no answer. The universe will not provide you with an answer. Who will?  Instead, realize that you're the one who is being asked, and you must respond to this question! Camus response would be a revolt against the absurd. Frankl would say we can find meaning in three ways: (1) by creating a work or doing a deed; (2) by experiencing something or encountering someone; and (3) by the attitude we take toward unavoidable suffering" and that "everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances.

Good Stuff Man. I am going to investigate this some more.  I feel I am at a crossroads in my life. I am just about to turn 43 and feel I have lived pretty much the way I want, I won't go into detail, but I have lived as a rebel on the fringes. I had a very abusive childhood that led me into an even more violent adult life. As you can imagine, such a life creates it's fair share of psychological and physical battle scars.  Now I find myself asking is this it and I get a sense that the rest of my life is kind of knowable and predictable and I wonder do I really want to ride that wave in.  I sometimes seriously consider jumping off the wave and waiting for the next one to come along (meaning the next life).  For some people life isn't a bed of roses, it is a daily grind, one that isn't always apparent to the outside observer, it's living with a tormented psyche.  For me I sometimes feel like a tortured soul and wonder how much more I can take.  It's like I need to find something, and God doesn't do it for me, I know that much.

[da_vinci]

Cool, I have been investigating it, really resonating with where I am at in life currently.
I found this site, good info here. http://www.philosophytalk.org/community/blog/laura-maguire/2015/04/camus-and-absurdity

But I found a comment that claimed the consensus of his friends was that Camus, too, committed suicide.

This is the problem I found with digging deep into existential issues, finding out that it might be true that life is hopeless, meaningless and essentially not worth living.

[da_vinci]

I think people pose the question in the wrong direction, as Frankl stated. Do not ask "What is the meaning of life?" By asking such a question, you will be left with no answer.

It's cliche, but I would dare to say... love. Have you ever been in love? Like reallly in love, when the birds sang and sun was shining so bright like never before? If you were (it is rare, but happens to some) and someone asked you "What's the meaning of life? I don't see any." during that time, you would've said "Wtf are you talking about?? Fuck off!!".
 

 Too bad it passes, but it's worth being alive just for that experience.

[Radical Plato]

Probably not a good idea to take advice on whether or not life is worth living from a man who spent over 37 years undergoing psychoanalysis and molested children.

And even after watching that short clip, it was like meh, still unsatisfying.  I want something with some staying power, real insight that penetrates to the core and satisfies the intellect.  Not this candy pop psychology bullshit that sells movies to the neurotic masses.

[da_vinci]

Probably not a good idea to take advice on whether or not life is worth living from a man who spent over 37 years undergoing psychoanalysis and molested children.

But his point of view regarding the lack of meaning in life has been widely known. And he has some great points, very intelligent fella, weird, but very intelligent.

Good Stuff Man. I am going to investigate this some more.  I feel I am at a crossroads in my life. I am just about to turn 43 and feel I have lived pretty much the way I want, I won't go into detail, but I have lived as a rebel on the fringes. I had a very abusive childhood that led me into an even more violent adult life. As you can imagine, such a life creates it's fair share of psychological and physical battle scars.  Now I find myself asking is this it and I get a sense that the rest of my life is kind of knowable and predictable and I wonder do I really want to ride that wave in.  I sometimes seriously consider jumping off the wave and waiting for the next one to come along (meaning the next life).  For some people life isn't a bed of roses, it is a daily grind, one that isn't always apparent to the outside observer, it's living with a tormented psyche.  For me I sometimes feel like a tortured soul and wonder how much more I can take.  It's like I need to find something, and God doesn't do it for me, I know that much.

What if there is no "other wave" as Allen says? You will still die, why not just try to enjoy the ride. I'll most certainly off myself if I ever live to a situation where I'm disabled (by age or by other circumstances), but till that - fukk it, there are good days, very good days. I'm tyring to keep myself constantly busy, "scoring" in various fields of life, progressing, "leveling" (like gamers in Lineage). QUite some options - you could come up with a new goal, maybe even a materialisic one, or to help someone who are even more unfortunate.. or you could start constantly doing blow, buying hookers and doing other stuff that gives you a physical pleasure and do that till you can't anymore then just do the last line with a bunch of pills.  It can even lead to some new revelations.
 I'll be honest - I'm a complete cynic, I do not believe in god, I do nto believe in humanity, I'm fully aware of the pointlessness of life, yet I don't give a fuck about all that. I used to, but stopped, cold turkey. I spit on this shit. Nietzche once said that for these who he cares at least a lil bit he wishes all the bad shit, negative thoughts and self loathing it coudl be possible to experience, because.......if you take that and still stand still - that's what shows who is who. And if you stand still - you know that you are strong afterall, and being strong is equal to being happy, because most fall, succumb and never ever experience what it is to be strong. As the saying goes - strong is not the one who beats, but the one who can take it all. Knowing that after all that you can stand up and take this experience till it lasts - is a meaning by itself, to fight, to revolt (as Camu says), to be in this battle till you can't breath no more, than you at least know that you never gave up and was defeated rightfully, not because you got scared and ran off.

[Radical Plato]

But his point of view regarding the lack of meaning in life has been widely known. And he has some great points, very intelligent fella, weird, but very intelligent.

What if there is no "other wave" as Allen says? You will still die, why not just try to enjoy the ride. I'll most certainly off myself if I ever live to a situation where I'm disabled (by age or by other circumstances), but till that - fukk it, there are good days, very good days. I'm tyring to keep myself constantly busy, "scoring" in various fields of life, progressing, "leveling" (like gamers in Lineage). QUite some options - you could come up with a new goal, maybe even a materialisic one, or to help someone who are even more unfortunate.. or you could start constantly doing blow, buying hookers and doing other stuff that gives you a physical pleasure and do that till you can't anymore then just do the last line with a bunch of pills.  It can even lead to some new revelations.
 I'll be honest - I'm a complete cynic, I do not believe in god, I do nto believe in humanity, I'm fully aware of the pointlessness of life, yet I don't give a fuck about all that. I used to, but stopped, cold turkey. I spit on this shit. Nietzche once said that for these who he cares at least a lil bit he wishes all the bad shit, negative thoughts and self loathing it coudl be possible to experience, because.......if you take that and still stand still - that's what shows who is who. And if you stand still - you know that you are strong afterall, and being strong is equal to being happy, because most fall, succumb and never ever experience what it is to be strong. As the saying goes - strong is not the one who beats, but the one who can take it all. Knowing that after all that you can stand up and take this experience till it lasts - is a meaning by itself, to fight, to revolt (as Camu says), to be in this battle till you can't breath no more, than you at least know that you never gave up and was defeated rightfully, not because you got scared and ran off.

For me it's not about being scared and turning tail, it's more a deeper philosophical questioning.  Can't a life ended in it's prime be just as meaningful and maybe even more so than living it through to the bitter end some demented old fool shitting in his pants unaware of his surroundings.  What's the point in that? Is that worth fighting for?  I kind of like looking at individual life as an artform, like a piece of music, you have to know when to end the song, if you just keep repeating the chorus it soon annoys and frustrates rather than pleases and soothes.  Or like the fighter who never knows when to retire only to become a sad caricature of his former self.

If I am honest the thought of killing myself is far more frightening than just seeing out my days, keeping on keeping on is easy, just keep doing what I am doing, wash, rinse, repeat.  No fight, no struggle, no fear.  But taking your life into your own hands takes courage and a strong sense of self determination, dying on my own terms, just like I have lived life.  I think I decided many years ago that barring accidental death or sudden tragedy I will be the one who decides how and when I die.  It's just a matter of determining when that will be.  I am in no hurry, but it is something I often think about.

[King Shizzo]

I hope I am not inferring to much into Radical Plato's posts, but suicide is never an option, my friend.

PM me, if you would like to discuss things privately.

[da_vinci]

For me it's not about being scared and turning tail, it's more a deeper philosophical questioning.  Can't a life ended in it's prime be just as meaningful and maybe even more so than living it through to the bitter end some demented old fool shitting in his pants unaware of his surroundings.  What's the point in that? Is that worth fighting for?  I kind of like looking at individual life as an artform, like a piece of music, you have to know when to end the song, if you just keep repeating the chorus it soon annoys and frustrates rather than pleases and soothes.  Or like the fighter who never knows when to retire only to become a sad caricature of his former self.

If I am honest the thought of killing myself is far more frightening than just seeing out my days, keeping on keeping on is easy, just keep doing what I am doing, wash, rinse, repeat.  No fight, no struggle, no fear.  But taking your life into your own hands takes courage and a strong sense of self determination, dying on my own terms, just like I have lived life.  I think I decided many years ago that barring accidental death or sudden tragedy I will be the one who decides how and when I die.  It's just a matter of determining when that will be.  I am in no hurry, but it is something I often think about.

 Good points. I can only say that I have some hope in technology. It may very well be that these who are 30-40 now will have a much more bearable experience at an old age than these who lived before. Think virtual reality, some advanced medical procedures. And at the very least - the same technology may bring a very interesting and almost "magical" (compared to now) life experience in a relatively near future (AIs unrecognizable from humans, brain upgrades, enabling to feel and experience on a whole different level, etc..). Just saying that it may be quite exciting time to still be alive. It may not, but you will never find out if you end it soon.

And Shizzo - suicide is an option, why not, it depends on how many other options a person has/sees.

[Radical Plato]

I hope I am not inferring to much into Radical Plato's posts, but suicide is never an option, my friend.

PM me, if you would like to discuss things privately.

I don't feel suicidal per se, just at a point in life where I am delving deep into existential issues and it has me questioning life long held values and meanings. I have never understood other people's concerns when others talk of suicide.  I mean, how do we know what another is experiencing and how do we know that suicide isn't the best option for that person.  I had a good friend commit suicide at 42, I know why he did it, I think for himself he probably did what he thought was best and who knows maybe it was.  I know what his circumstances were and the remainder of his life would have probably consisted of many years of torment and misery. Who am I to say he should stick around and learn to enjoy being a masochist.

This is why I like the euthanasia movement, they don't try and talk anybody out of suicide, they advocate harm minimisation and the most effective ways to end your life.  To be honest, I think if someone is determined to take their life, their isn't much you can say to prevent it.  Suicide is a deeply deeply personal issue that happens to have broad social ramifications unfortunately.  Like I said, not suicidal, just questioning the meaning of life, if there is such a thing.

[Necrosis]

Great. I should read some of that, interesting. I've came to a similar conclusion on my own tho (to live with this awareness of absurdity and I just don't give a shit anymore).

I really don't think that anyone's introspection should be taken seriously (mine or yours) we are completely and utterly unequipped to understand what is occurring. I don't mean this in a god from christianity nor am I arguing from ignorance, however, we very well could be a simulation, it's logically tenable.

ND Tyson, makes a very apt point regarding dna similarity between us and chimps, simply a 1% difference, within this difference lies our intelligence, that 1% sends us out of the trees and onto the moon. Imagine what 1% more difference would look like? the children would have intuitive understanding of quantum mechanics, they would explain dark matter simply and perhaps things that we cannot even fathom.

I also don't trust what I am saying for the same reason no humans inferences are truly helpful, it could all be pointless if that is even a thing. Which brings us back to the original point, eventually you realize, conjecture is as close as you could possibly come, inherent uncertainty is  reality.

[Radical Plato]

I also don't trust what I am saying for the same reason no humans inferences are truly helpful, it could all be pointless if that is even a thing. Which brings us back to the original point, eventually you realize, conjecture is as close as you could possibly come, inherent uncertainty is  reality.

Let's say you're conjecture is close to being right, don't you find that depressing.  I mean if we can't trust ourselves or others and pointlessness is a likely possibility, couple this with guaranteed uncertainty and persistent recurrent suffering, how can anything other than mental gymnastics and denial/repression etc get us through.  And what happens when you see through the whole charade and can no longer perform the psychological self trickery necessary to hold up this precarious deck of cards?

[da_vinci]

I really don't think that anyone's introspection should be taken seriously (mine or yours) we are completely and utterly unequipped to understand what is occurring. I don't mean this in a god from christianity nor am I arguing from ignorance, however, we very well could be a simulation, it's logically tenable.

ND Tyson, makes a very apt point regarding dna similarity between us and chimps, simply a 1% difference, within this difference lies our intelligence, that 1% sends us out of the trees and onto the moon. Imagine what 1% more difference would look like? the children would have intuitive understanding of quantum mechanics, they would explain dark matter simply and perhaps things that we cannot even fathom.

I also don't trust what I am saying for the same reason no humans inferences are truly helpful, it could all be pointless if that is even a thing. Which brings us back to the original point, eventually you realize, conjecture is as close as you could possibly come, inherent uncertainty is  reality.

I would say there is a finite math that's possible to calculate, maybe even use it however you want from then on, control, influence and shape, create new forms of being. The meaning itself may be in the being and experiencing. It's universe experiencing itself.

[Necrosis]

Good Stuff Man. I am going to investigate this some more.  I feel I am at a crossroads in my life. I am just about to turn 43 and feel I have lived pretty much the way I want, I won't go into detail, but I have lived as a rebel on the fringes. I had a very abusive childhood that led me into an even more violent adult life. As you can imagine, such a life creates it's fair share of psychological and physical battle scars.  Now I find myself asking is this it and I get a sense that the rest of my life is kind of knowable and predictable and I wonder do I really want to ride that wave in.  I sometimes seriously consider jumping off the wave and waiting for the next one to come along (meaning the next life).  For some people life isn't a bed of roses, it is a daily grind, one that isn't always apparent to the outside observer, it's living with a tormented psyche.  For me I sometimes feel like a tortured soul and wonder how much more I can take.  It's like I need to find something, and God doesn't do it for me, I know that much.

That's the point, it's pointless, you are nothing, we are all nothing, everything is nothing. That's the best thing you could ever hope for, imagine, you could go sky diving tomorrow, release your fear (you are already dead) and enter the moment (now, the only time there ever is). The childhood sense of awe is due to being in the moment, you are aware that life may be pointless, it is, you are going to die and cease to exist, what difference does it make?

all the daily fears, limitations etc are self induced, your concept that life is predictable is wrong, it's not, you are, I honestly think finding what absorbs you, in that state where time, the outside world and you drift away. People are living by others fears, conjectures and all around bullshit, Kant argued that enlightenment was simply one using his own reason, life regains that shimmer when you rely on yourself and discover again.

[King Shizzo]

I don't feel suicidal per se, just at a point in life where I am delving deep into existential issues and it has me questioning life long held values and meanings. I have never understood other people's concerns when others talk of suicide.  I mean, how do we know what another is experiencing and how do we know that suicide isn't the best option for that person.  I had a good friend commit suicide at 42, I know why he did it, I think for himself he probably did what he thought was best and who knows maybe it was.  I know what his circumstances were and the remainder of his life would have probably consisted of many years of torment and misery. Who am I to say he should stick around and learn to enjoy being a masochist.

This is why I like the euthanasia movement, they don't try and talk anybody out of suicide, they advocate harm minimisation and the most effective ways to end your life.  To be honest, I think if someone is determined to take their life, their isn't much you can say to prevent it.  Suicide is a deeply deeply personal issue that happens to have broad social ramifications unfortunately.  Like I said, not suicidal, just questioning the meaning of life, if there is such a thing.

Dude......

[Radical Plato]

I would say there is a finite math that's possible to calculate, maybe even use it however you want from then on, control, influence and shape, create new forms of being. The meaning itself may be in the being and experiencing. It's universe experiencing itself.

See when people say deep shit like that I feel I almost understand it on an unconscious level, but then I am like what the fuck, it borders on genius/insanity, but then I realise I have no conscious idea what you are saying.  Can you dumb that down for those of us who have probably knocked off more than their fair share of neurons.