Re: having kids....

[OB1]

Well, you could use any number of definitions of duality to describe.

Maybe dominant/submissive is less harsh a description. 

 
Ok.

[Man of Steel]

It's disappointing that you say that, since I thought you weren't a God fearing Christian..

Interesting.  No, I fear and respect God completely.  

The gospel message has two parts and the majority of the time only the first part is preached....that's the message of grace.  The second half is the portion Jesus Christ spoke of more than any other....that's the message of the wrath of God's judgment.  There was no greater hellfire preacher than Jesus Christ and his message was grace and wrath.  

[Man of Steel]

This is bunk! A God who can see the past,present and future, why then would he create an unfaithful sinner that he knows will disappoint him all so he can punish him.  It's absurd in the extreme.

And there are no decent men, we are made indecent.  I think that's what disturbs me the most about the God Botherers, there sense of self righteousness.  I have a brother who married a religious whackjob, they look down their nose at everyone and they are complete cun+s, they behave terribly, they are extremely judgemental, they are typical hypocrites and yet they think they are highly decent people.  They pretend to CARE but when people need help they abandon them justifying it with some religious nonsense.  They avoid me like the plague because they know I will call them out on their bullshit and remind them that their SHIT stinks just like everyone else's.

Answers to all objections in this post are in my post history.

[Man of Steel]

He "doesn't even read my posts" lol..  because I ask the "wrong" questions. I've had quite some religious debates in real life too. Needless to say every single one of these who tried arguing with me experienced a total nervous meltdown, sooner or later. And I do it in a very respectful manner (when irl), no ad hominem, no inappropriate remarks. I never do it with my newer friends who happen to be religious, even if they try (and they try pretty often. Probably feel that I have "something" that enables me to stay sober, and subconsciously they want to shake off that addiction too, so start discussions in hopes that someone will prove them wrong) because it's a straight way to get them avoid me, even if I do it in a very very respectful manner, the threat to a belief system presented by a pure critical thinking is way too much to handle.

I shared the gospel message with you and you rejected it completely.  You've persisted with some other mockery and stuff after the fact....so be it.  I haven't even begun to debate with you.....we haven't done that....trust me I can debate you from sunup to sundown and defend my faith.   You're a "black and white atheist" that will never be reasoned with as it pertains to theists....I know the type.  You've confirmed here what I already sniffed out.  You can consult my post history for answers to things if you want....there's also google.

[Man of Steel]

Funny you should say this.  From your perspective, I lost my way.

They'll abandon you.  And if not, then their children will abandon them.

You're sowing the seeds of familial discord, and your descendants will reap them.

You can prepare all you want, but you won't stem the tide.  And the harder you struggle, the more damage your children will take.

The reward for their piety, sadly, lies in this world, not the next.  And a dead God has little left to spare them.

I'll take my chances, but thanks for the guidance.

[Raymondo]

No concepts are as ludicrous as heaven and hell. I wonder how it is possible for modern men to believe in such fairy tales.

Everyone is going to hell according to someone else's religion. Even different denominations in the same religion believe each other is going to hell. This alone reveals the extremely contradictory nature of religion. It is contradictory because it was made by men and men are contradictory. In reality there is no heaven and hell and when you die, you die. Dying is a terrifying concept. In my opinion, one of the reasons religions were created was to offer some kind of hope to people who spent their entire lives in terrible conditions. And if you study the environments where religions originally flourished, especially the Abrahamic tradition, it makes sense. To a peasant living in Roman Palestine, toiling under conditions we would find brutal, it must have been especially sweet to hear that they will be rewarded with eternal happiness in death and their oppressors with eternal damnation.

[Raymondo]

You can prepare all you want, but you won't stem the tide.  And the harder you struggle, the more damage your children will take.

The reward for their piety, sadly, lies in this world, not the next.  And a dead God has little left to spare them.

This, I truly believe. Leaving the personal tone aside, the closer one follows teachings from desert scribes from antiquity, the closer their lives become incompatible with the modern world. It is no surprise that believers are told to not live for the world. The world changes so fast that even individuals like myself, atheist technologists, struggle to understand the consequences of technological progress. How absurd it must all seem to a mind affected by religion!

[ritch]

No concepts are as ludicrous as heaven and hell. I wonder how is it possible that modern men can believe in such fairy tales.

Everyone is going to hell according to someone else's religion. This alone reveals the extremely contradictory nature of religion. It is contradictory because it was made by men. In reality there is no heaven and hell and when you die, you die. Dying is a terrible concept. In my opinion, one of the reasons religions were created was to offer some kind of hope to people who spend their entire lives in terrible conditions. And if you study the environments where religions originally flourised, it makes sense. To a peasant living in Roman Palestine it must have been especially sweet to hear that they will be rewarded with eternal happiness in death and their oppressors with eternal damnation.

that's really well said.

[Master Blaster]

No concepts are as ludicrous as heaven and hell. I wonder how it is possible for modern men to believe in such fairy tales.

Everyone is going to hell according to someone else's religion. Even different denominations in the same religion believe each other is going to hell. This alone reveals the extremely contradictory nature of religion. It is contradictory because it was made by men. In reality there is no heaven and hell and when you die, you die. Dying is a terrifying concept. In my opinion, one of the reasons religions were created was to offer some kind of hope to people who spend their entire lives in terrible conditions. And if you study the environments where religions originally flourised, it makes sense. To a peasant living in Roman Palestine, toiling under conditions we would find brutal, it must have been especially sweet to hear that they will be rewarded with eternal happiness in death and their oppressors with eternal damnation.

See, here's the thing. I don't believe we were sent here just to wait around until we die. We are supposed to transcend.

[Raymondo]

See, here's the thing. I don't believe we were sent here just to wait around until we die. We are supposed to transcend.

Transcedence has many meanings, why accept a religious one? You transcend every time you exceed your limits.

Having said that, the metaphysical needs of man will be with him for a long time to come, because they are linked with evolution. Religion is an evolutionary relict. But religion was not the only system of thought meant to quiet man's restlessness. Man was restless for as long as there was man.

Read Marcus Aurelius's Meditations, an easily understood, accessible book of philosophy, and tell me it is not more elegant than fairy tales about winged creatures and ancestral sins.

[Raymondo]

Well, I can present all kinds of evidence and resolve many, many, many biblical objections.

The evidence all starts from the same premise. There is a God and only one God. Everything else flows from there. It is a premise never challenged. But if an argument starts from the wrong premise, it is an invalid argument.

The Christian worldview is predicated on the existence of a being that cannot be proven without submitting to the worldview. This is 100% circular reasoning, it makes no sense whatsoever.

[OB1]

The Christian worldview is predicated on the existence of a being that cannot be proven without submitting to the worldview. This is 100% circular reasoning, it makes no sense whatsoever.

It's simple.
No offence...
BUT either you are using your brain or you are christian.
You can't have both.

This is also why they are able to recruit most at an early age.
Can't fool a grown-up that easy.
Or maybe you can.

[Radical Plato]

No concepts are as ludicrous as heaven and hell. I wonder how it is possible for modern men to believe in such fairy tales.

Everyone is going to hell according to someone else's religion. Even different denominations in the same religion believe each other is going to hell. This alone reveals the extremely contradictory nature of religion. It is contradictory because it was made by men and men are contradictory. In reality there is no heaven and hell and when you die, you die. Dying is a terrifying concept. In my opinion, one of the reasons religions were created was to offer some kind of hope to people who spend their entire lives in terrible conditions. And if you study the environments where religions originally flourised, especially the Abrahamic tradition, it makes sense. To a peasant living in Roman Palestine, toiling under conditions we would find brutal, it must have been especially sweet to hear that they will be rewarded with eternal happiness in death and their oppressors with eternal damnation.

That's poetry. And I am being entirely serious. It is so good in fact that I am even tempted to not point out your one spelling error. 

[Radical Plato]

It's simple.
No offence...
BUT either you are using your brain or you are christian.
You can't have both.

This is also why they are able to recruit most at an early age.
Can't fool a grown-up that easy.
Or maybe you can.

That's just it, just because you are an adult in years doesn't mean you are grown-up.

[OB1]

That's just it, just because you are an adult in years doesn't mean you are grown-up.

True.
Body age doesn't say much.

[Fortress]

Raymondo owning in the latter stages of this thread. He's seriously rational and intelligent.

...

Indoctrinating children with religion from birth is child abuse, plain and simple.

[Man of Steel]

No concepts are as ludicrous as heaven and hell. I wonder how it is possible for modern men to believe in such fairy tales.

Everyone is going to hell according to someone else's religion. Even different denominations in the same religion believe each other is going to hell. This alone reveals the extremely contradictory nature of religion. It is contradictory because it was made by men and men are contradictory. In reality there is no heaven and hell and when you die, you die. Dying is a terrifying concept. In my opinion, one of the reasons religions were created was to offer some kind of hope to people who spend their entire lives in terrible conditions. And if you study the environments where religions originally flourised, especially the Abrahamic tradition, it makes sense. To a peasant living in Roman Palestine, toiling under conditions we would find brutal, it must have been especially sweet to hear that they will be rewarded with eternal happiness in death and their oppressors with eternal damnation.

Well, I'm a person that has experienced both the divine and the demonic so the concepts hold definite truth and meaning for me.  I could give you story after story from those that have also experienced similar encounters with heaven and hell.  Many believers also never have such encounters.  Although, sometimes God touches some unbelievers with a glimpse of heaven and/or hell.  These personal testimonies reach across thousands of years of history and are even more prevalent today given our technology.  My assumption is that an individual such as yourself who is firmly grounded in their presuppositions and subjectivity (and has admitted no knowledge or experience of God) doesn't even consider said testimonies as anything more than garbage.  You simply dismiss the evidence without investigation because it doesn’t comport with your presuppositions on a topic with which you are admittedly ignorant....so be it.

So, based upon your logic, given that there are competing theories on heaven and hell (ex: Judaism, Islam, Christianity, etc) that this alone reveals that the theories are ludicrous (or fallacious).  This fallaciousness supported by the idea that the concepts are created by men and men contradict one another.  Taken one step further, you qualify your logic with an absolute statement, derived from your subjective opinion,  that “the reality is when you die you die and that's it”.  This absolute statement of ironic subjectivity also grounded in the same subject matter ignorance we discussed previously.

On a sidenote, the vast majority of denominational differences are based in adiaphora (non essentials of the faith) and styles of worship.  Foundations of salvation and the gospel message are rarely comprised within Christianity.  I won't speak for other religions.

You also noted, that religion was invented to comfort folks because of death.  I don't argue this because for some religions this is true.  It isn't universally true and it isn't for Christianity, but certainly for some religions and cults it is.

Back to your original assertion that heaven and hell is ludicrous  because given competing theories created by men and given that men contradict one another the assertion is false.  Great.  This bit of logic can be applied to many things.  Let's take for example the proliferation of competing theories on the topics of the "origin of life" and the “origin of the universe”.  All are therefore deemed ludicrous and fallacious because they are created by men and men contradict one another.

[Man of Steel]

The evidence all starts from the same premise. There is a God and only one God. Everything else flows from there. It is a premise never challenged. But if an argument starts from the wrong premise, it is an invalid argument.

The Christian worldview is predicated on the existence of a being that cannot be proven without submitting to the worldview. This is 100% circular reasoning, it makes no sense whatsoever.

You are correct that there is God and only one God.    

Never challenged?   Well, we have atheism, agnosticism, any religion with a plurality of gods and any religion with a different singular god….it’s pretty well challenged.

An argument is a collection of premises that lead to a conclusion, but an invalid premise doesn’t universally invalidate an argument or a conclusion.   Further, the fallaciousness of your God premise is only deemed as such because of your subjectivity and presuppositions.  It isn’t an absolute truth statement.

Actually, my problem with nonbelievers that engage the Christian worldview is that they often refuse to allow God to be God.  They take a supernatural event presided over by God, deem it as false because it can’t be accomplished via naturalism and simply remove God from the equation altogether.  That’s a convenience in argumentation.   Want to make your argument work in a worldview you don’t support?  Just add and subtract things randomly from that foreign worldview to force it to conform to your own worldview and presuppositions (or invent a different, unrelated worldview).   That’s what I object to when people enter the Christian worldview…not allowing God to be God.

[Radical Plato]

 That’s what I object to when people enter the Christian worldview…not allowing God to be God.

Those dirty blasphemous sons of bitches.  God Damn them, damn them all to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Man of Steel]

Those dirty blasphemous sons of bitches.  God Damn them, damn them all to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand what you're doing here.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

[Radical Plato]

I understand what you're doing here.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

To be honest I get to a point where I just skim over it and internally I am saying to myself blah, blah, blah.  The whole debate just seems like an exercise in futility.  It's meaningless really, none of us know why we are here or what happens after we are gone, and everything else is just conjecture. You need a god and some others don't! That's the beauty of life, you can live for God, or you can live in spite of him. 

[Man of Steel]

To be honest I get to a point where I just skim over it and internally I am saying to myself blah, blah, blah.  The whole debate just seems like an exercise in futility.  It's meaningless really, none of us know why we are here or what happens after we are gone, and everything else is just conjecture. You need a god and some others don't! That's the beauty of life, you can live for God, or you can live in spite of him.  

I'll just take that as a "no".

The skimming and not reading my posts and "blah, blah, blah" mentality is a recurring theme.   Given your mind is made up and isn't changing, I just use objections of atheists as a platform to present the theist perspective and show others that those "scary, tough atheist questions" do have answers.  I try and love on everyone, but post primarily for the sake of others that haven't made up their minds.  Unfortunately it's the atheists (that don't care about my words at all   ) that do the majority of objecting and religious posting for 20+ pages in multiple threads year after year (you know, cause they don't care).    

Never once said you can't live every minute of your life without God and be happy as can be.....in fact I've stated that many, many times.

[OB1]

Religion is for people who need imaginary friends and places to cope with life.
Also religious people still don't get the reasoning behind religion which is to control people.
Well to each his/her own I guess.
But still...
use your brain.

[cephissus]

Let's take for example the proliferation of competing theories on the topics of the "origin of life" and the “origin of the universe”.  All are therefore deemed ludicrous and fallacious because they are created by men and men contradict one another.

You're right, but Raymondo isn't wrong.  All theories are ludicrous and fallacious, some moreso than others.  Christian theories are more ludicrous than "scientific" theories at this point in history, which explains why most people who still subscribe to the former are either uneducated or indoctrinated as children.

Unfortunately, the latter often suffer serious mental schisms as they attempt to reconcile the theories that they accepted as a child with the theories they learn as adults.

Some say you are "brainwashing" your kids because they do not have the education necessary to question what you teach them.  Unfortunately while you instill ancient morals into your children, you aren't teaching them ancient arithmetic, ancient physics, ancient biology, etc.  The rest of their rational faculties will develop under modern ("worldly") instruction, at which point they will begin to suffer cognitive dissonance in proportion to their intelligence.

At this point, two outcomes arise:

1.  Retain beliefs, continue to suffer.
2.  Abandon beliefs, try to reconstruct identity.

Unfortunately, should they choose the latter, they won't have their parents' help.  And faced with this challenge, they may take choose to retain their "faith" -- not really "believing", but afraid of the alternative.

[Tapeworm]

Ok, nobody impregnate anybody until we get to the bottom of this.