UK referendum on EU membership June 23rd

[OB1]

Fixed.

LOL.
Since when?

[Conker]

Muslim countries have been fighting each other over religion for centuries...1000yrs+ actually.  No, the US and UK are not PRIMARILY responsible for their continued wars.  They need to change their countries from within.  US and UK can support as a coalition of countries to promote peace...perhaps safe havens.  Relocating millions of muslims to UK, US and Western Europe that don't want to assimilate and have very different laws and culture is not best for anyone.  We are also responsible for our people first.

people in general have being finding reasons to fight each other for thousands of years not just muslims. europeans are responsible for starting the war with the highest death toll in history. so what?

none of that changes the fact that our deposition of the iraqi regime and backing of moderates jihadis to fight the syrian regime, is greatly responsible for isis getting a stranglehold there and the general mess those countries are in.

here's a thought, if you don't want to take any responsibility for middle eastern refugees, stop creating them with unprovoked wars and stirring up sht.

[HonestBob]

people in general have being finding reasons to fight each other for thousands of years not just muslims. europeans are responsible for starting the war with the highest death toll in history. so what?

none of that changes the fact that our deposition of the iraqi regime and backing of moderates jihadis to fight the syrian regime, is greatly responsible for isis getting a stranglehold there and the general mess those countries are in.

here's a thought, if you don't want to take any responsibility for middle eastern refugees, stop creating them with unprovoked wars and stirring up sht.

You make some valid points about responsibility, but it's not too much of a tautological twist to suggest that you're flying in the face of "two wrongs don't make a right".

The West has screwed up in the ME, that's obvious. America especially just doesn't do foreign policy all that well. But to suggest that we should screw up our own countries by welcoming in a bunch of medieval goat fcukers is beyond mental.

On the night of September 11th 2001  I saw carnival time in East London. There is no such thing as multi-culturalism for many of these Muslims. Bear in mind that a large % of them are the dregs of their own society.  We are not taking about shipping in a bunch of Iranian emigres. Moroccan, Algerian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Somalian vermin who will do nothing but drag our countries down to the level of the shitholes that they left.

[Conker]

here you go. even the great revered leader barrack hussein obama admits the rise of isis is down to US and co

"Mr Obama said: "Two things: one is, Isis is a direct outgrowth of al-Qaeda in Iraq that grew out of our invasion. Which is an example of unintended consequences. Which is why we should generally aim before we shoot."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/president-obama-claims-rise-of-isis-is-unintended-consequence-of-george-w-bush-s-invasion-in-iraq-10115243.html

[Conker]

You make some valid points about responsibility, but it's not too much of a tautological twist to suggest that you're flying in the face of "two wrongs don't make a right".

The West has screwed up in the ME, that's obvious. America especially just doesn't do foreign policy all that well. But to suggest that we should screw up our own countries by welcoming in a bunch of medieval goat fcukers is beyond mental.

On the night of September 11th 2001  I saw carnival time in East London. There is no such thing as multi-culturalism for many of these Muslims. Bear in mind that a large % of them are the dregs of their own society.  We are not taking about shipping in a bunch of Iranian emigres. Moroccan, Algerian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Somalian vermin who will do nothing but drag our countries down to the level of the shitholes that they left.

tbf syrians are probably more similar culturally to turks than they are the group of nationalities you've listed. and i'm sure the number being talked about europe taking is something like a million, that absorbed into a population of 500 million really isn't such a big deal.

regardless of any of that i'm of the belief that if you cause a mess you do your bit to clean it up even if it means some hardship on your part.

 

[SuperTed]

If we take in large amounts of Middle Eastern refugees, than the ones belonging to the religious minorities in the area should be given preference. Any migration of Sunni Muslims should be closely monitored. Migrants from places such as Somalia are of a bigger concern than Syrians/Lebanese/Persians etc.

[_aj_]

here you go. even the great revered leader barrack hussein obama admits the rise of isis is down to US and co

"Mr Obama said: "Two things: one is, Isis is a direct outgrowth of al-Qaeda in Iraq that grew out of our invasion. Which is an example of unintended consequences. Which is why we should generally aim before we shoot."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/president-obama-claims-rise-of-isis-is-unintended-consequence-of-george-w-bush-s-invasion-in-iraq-10115243.html

Quoting Obama blaming Bush for anything is a bit of a joke over here. He does it for everything. It's not dispositive.

[Conker]

Quoting Obama blaming Bush for anything is a bit of a joke over here. He does it for everything. It's not dispositive.

it was meant tongue in cheek really. of course one great leader may have some personal incentive to tarnish the legacy of the highly esteemed leader that went before him.

but i think anyone reasonably well informed would agree with obama's assertion nonetheless.

[bigmc]

so to sum up every time we do anything over seas

we should allow the whole population of that country to move here 

[Thin Lizzy]

so to sum up every time we do anything over seas

we should allow the whole population of that country to move here 

Yes, that's Moral Relativism.

The Middle East Population should be held to no standards, at all.

And you should be held to impossible standards.

[bigmc]

Yes, that's Moral Relativism.

The Middle East Population should be held to no standards, at all.

And you should be held to impossible standards.

its easy to make the moral argument while at dinner parties eating vegan food

different case if you have terrorists running round your streets trying to kill everyone

we cant afford to let these lunatics in its that simple

fuck them

[Thin Lizzy]

its easy to make the moral argument while at dinner parties eating vegan food

different case if you have terrorists running round your streets trying to kill everyone

we cant afford to let these lunatics in its that simple

fuck them

Those making the argument believe they will be spared because they understand the plight of the oppressed.

[Yamcha]

Those refugees should be thankful that the U.S. never truly unleashed hell upon them and their homeland.
 

I never supported intervening in the Middle East, especially without any clear cut goals/agenda, but once we did get involved we should have never pussyfooted around. I want my tax dollars put to good use goddamnit!

[Tapeworm]

The UK and every country that caved in to George Bush's overbearing ultimatum should take a long look in the mirror.

"Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists."

To which the correct response was: "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  Who the hell do you think you are?  Go fuck yourself."

So 15 years later here you are debating whether you have a moral obligation to share your neighbourhood with refugees because of a war which your politicians chose and you fought, although none of the politicians fought it and none of them live in your neighbourhood.  Is that about it?

[Conker]

The UK and every country that caved in to George Bush's overbearing ultimatum should take a long look in the mirror.

"Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists."

To which the correct response was: "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  Who the hell do you think you are?  Go fuck yourself."

So 15 years later here you are debating whether you have a moral obligation to share your neighbourhood with refugees because of a war which your politicians chose and you fought, although none of the politicians fought it and none of them live in your neighbourhood.  Is that about it?

that seems about the long and short of it.

[Tapeworm]

Yeah but that's not the joke.  Nor is the fact that Europe (in which I include you guys, of course) seems to be getting the brunt of the blowback.

The punchline: That 'start mopping up' whistle isn't the final one.  That'd be the sound of 1/4 time.

[Irongrip400]

Those making the argument believe they will be spared because they understand the plight of the oppressed.

And this is where the romantic views things headed. That people will forgive and forget because they were nice. It reminds me of the old cartoons where there is an angry lion, and some small mouse. The lion has a splinter in his paw, and when the mouse pulls it out for him, they become friends. In real life, the lion eats the mouse without a second thought.

[Conker]

Yeah but that's not the joke.  Nor is the fact that Europe (in which I include you guys, of course) seems to be getting the brunt of the blowback.

The punchline: That 'start mopping up' whistle isn't the final one.  That'd be the sound of 1/4 time.

1/4 time? hmmm could be a good bet with the exalted statesman trump on course for the white house.

p.s thank for the inclusion into europe "we" were somewhat in limbo until that point 

[Tapeworm]

Lol, it's dumbocracy in action!

[obsidian]

people in general have being finding reasons to fight each other for thousands of years not just muslims. europeans are responsible for starting the war with the highest death toll in history. so what?

none of that changes the fact that our deposition of the iraqi regime and backing of moderates jihadis to fight the syrian regime, is greatly responsible for isis getting a stranglehold there and the general mess those countries are in.

here's a thought, if you don't want to take any responsibility for middle eastern refugees, stop creating them with unprovoked wars and stirring up sht.

You're a fucking moron. Do you think the average European or American citizen starts wars? Politicians and elites start wars for various reasons. Did German citizens vote to finance rebels in Syria? No. Europeans are not obligated to do anything but preserve their cultures and countries. They are also obligated to impale the traitorous politicians. That's it.

[Voice of Doom]

Diebold voting machines.

[Griffith]

You're a fucking moron. Do you think the average European or American citizen starts wars? Politicians and elites start wars for various reasons. Did German citizens vote to finance rebels in Syria? No. Europeans are not obligated to do anything but preserve their cultures and countries. They are also obligated to impale the traitorous politicians. That's it.

I think if he had direct democracy and people voting for wars or not, the vast majority of people would vote NO.

The problem with modern democracy is that it's usually just two or maybe three groups you can realistically choose who are basically the same, one a little more pro-business and other a bit pro-worker but otherwise not really different especially in terms of foreign policy.

[Conker]

You're a fucking moron. Do you think the average European or American citizen starts wars? Politicians and elites start wars for various reasons. Did German citizens vote to finance rebels in Syria? No. Europeans are not obligated to do anything but preserve their cultures and countries. They are also obligated to impale the traitorous politicians. That's it.

calm down tough guy. the closest you'll get to any "impaling" is if your bf decides to sticks his fist through your ring piece.

unfortunately we are ultimately responsible for the decisions our politicians make. you think if our politicians decide to bomb russia or china that they will refrain from raining bombs down on our heads because "it wasn't us.... it was only our politicians"

[Tapeworm]

I think if he had direct democracy and people voting for wars or not, the vast majority of people would vote NO.

The problem with modern democracy is that it's usually just two or maybe three groups you can realistically choose who are basically the same, one a little more pro-business and other a bit pro-worker but otherwise not just different especially in terms of foreign policy.

Fuckin-A right.  Any politician who says he supports a war should prove it - resign and go sign up with the infantry.

There are no logistical roadblocks remaining to direct democracy with current technology.  The only argument against it, and possibly a good one, is that people are idiots and can't be trusted to make the right call.  Which isn't much of an endorsement of any kind of democracy to begin with.

Yep, 'foreign policy' is gayer than precisely as gay as representative democracy.

[shootfighter1]

people in general have being finding reasons to fight each other for thousands of years not just muslims. europeans are responsible for starting the war with the highest death toll in history. so what?

none of that changes the fact that our deposition of the iraqi regime and backing of moderates jihadis to fight the syrian regime, is greatly responsible for isis getting a stranglehold there and the general mess those countries are in.

here's a thought, if you don't want to take any responsibility for middle eastern refugees, stop creating them with unprovoked wars and stirring up sht.

I agree with you on some points, at times we back factions that later cause problems and have extremist elements but the most important point that you don't seem to understand is these people are constantly fighting each other, this is the history of the middle east with respect to wars.  They fight over subtle differences in religion, over land, and regimes.  That is why dictators are successful, they rule by harsh force and suppress the warring factions. Whether we are there or not, they are already fighting each other.  It is a liberal talking point to say we caused groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda by intervention in the Gulf war and after, that is false...we have influenced different factions, agree but these extremists in some form were already there.  In fact, when we left Iraq, Isis filled the voids, that is a fact listening to people that know far more than you and I.  I have listened to quite a few military leaders in their description of what is happening in the middle east.  I have cleared military members to go to the middle east for yrs.  They describe how bad it is in many regions there.  How backward and blinded the general population is, for the most part, with their lives being ruled by their religion.  Most people in the middle east want to live under Islamic law, they choose it, it is a part of their daily life and routine.  That is incompatible with western culture, entirely.  We cannot just relocate these people and think they will blend with Western culture and law.  The only way this will change is for younger generations to rise up and change their own countries.  We cannot force change and cannot nation build.  I agree, we should not leave large #s of troops there indefinitely and should only engage when it is in our best interest or to prevent genocide.