So why doesnt God appear every now and again?

[The Ugly]

Actually it's directly from scripture in Romans and Psalms (New and Old Testaments).  All know God exists via his creation so that none are without excuse.

It's not my presupposition or opinion....scripture is the source.

Scriptural means it can't be presuppositional? Aren't you presupposing those words are true?

[Man of Steel]

Scriptural means it can't be presuppositional? Aren't you presupposing those words are true?

They've been demonstrated to be true in the lives of believers hence our witness to nonbelievers.

[The Ugly]

They've been demonstrated to be true in the lives of believers hence our witness to nonbelievers.

Guess we gotta take their word for it, too. Lots of strangers' words we're trusting here, solid stuff.

[Man of Steel]

Guess we gotta take their word for it, too. Lots of strangers' words we're trusting here, solid stuff.

Well Christ's disciples spread the gospel and did so under the constant threat of death and many were eventually beaten and killed brutally.  Long way to go for a lie.

I share my faith and typically all I receive in return from folks is ridicule and mockery.  Well, I do receive the blessings of my heavenly Father so it ain't all bad.  

But, it's why I share my faith so those that desire to know the Lord can do so and understand his divine revelation in their lives.  I care about everyone on this board so I persist.

[Agnostic007]

I think the great misconception of Christians is that they are "better" or "superior" morally.

Christians are not born into their faith, it's an acceptance of God's ways and plans. Christianity is a lifestyle.

When you ask where do Christians come from, what is there background you'll see that they're very diverse. However the common denominator for most is that they were hurt, broken people, in one way or another. These backgrounds and experiences then all fall under the larger umbrella of Christianity.  If you thought their were to many denominations think about each individual trying to adhere to a new lifestyle....

So when you have a large diverse group of people, many who don't initially know/agree, let alone practice them, with some of beliefs or morality standards, it's easy to understand why Christians are just as corrupt as the world.

The word Christian evokes many connotations. Even non Christians "know how real believers" should behave.

The truth is if most lived  how they thought "Christians" should live the world would be a better place.

But the allegation was, that non believers actually really believe, they just don't want to give up their sinful lives so they suppress the god belief. My point is.. no need....

[Man of Steel]

But the allegation was, that non believers actually really believe, they just don't want to give up their sinful lives so they suppress the god belief. My point is.. no need....

However God haters choose to phrase or rephrase their situation is fine....it doesn't change the reality of scripture. 

You're never going to state, "yep MOS, you're right".  It's within your quiet personal moments of reflection that this truth will be acknowledged....certainl y still suppressed tooth and nail, but acknowledged nonetheless.  Publically that will never be disclosed unless you have a change of heart....some do, most don't.  Jesus Christ calls men to repentance.  I'm here to spread the gospel as believers have been called.

[The Ugly]

Well Christ's disciples spread the gospel and did so under the constant threat of death and many were eventually beaten and killed brutally.  Long way to go for a lie.

I share my faith and typically all I receive in return from folks is ridicule and mockery.  Well, I do receive the blessings of my heavenly Father so it ain't all bad.  

But, it's why I share my faith so those that desire to know the Lord can do so and understand his divine revelation in their lives.  I care about everyone on this board so I persist.

We don't know this, any of it. All stories, spoken/translated/retranslated/transcribed/retranscribed over years and years, like history's silliest telephone game. All in hopes that some unseen, omniscient editor kept everyone honest. All we really know is Constantine made our ancestors Christians, and here we are.

Btw, I'm criticizing your claims, not you. Same as you clowning our intelligence with this "everyone knows" business. No hard feelings.

[Dave D]

But the allegation was, that non believers actually really believe, they just don't want to give up their sinful lives so they suppress the god belief. My point is.. no need....

Lol

Sorry bro I got caught up in your initial sentence, I could see why these conversations would be frustrating.

I get lost in a lot of the theology stuff .

My point was not everyone is at the same level, therefore not everyone can be held to the same standard. There's some black and white issues but more gray areas


My apologies.

[Man of Steel]

I understand that, MOS. And i think it is important for you to realise that in real life, it’s not like we would be forming a bully-circle around you, shoving you back and forth whilst pinching bits of flab and chanting "Christian homo". I am quite sure that we would all get on and be civil; i have a few friends who are religious and i don’t go around challenging them or debating all the time. You need to understand that you aren't being persecuted because people hate the religious - you are being challenged because you specifically post on this topic all the time, and have stated that your aim is to convert those who are undecided/agnostic.

What i take issue with is the fundamentalist mindset that you have. In my opinion, it is irrational and poisonous. When we strip away all the Orwellian doublespeak, pseudoscience and word-salad, what we are left with are the views of a man who supports genocide, slavery, human-sacrifice, coercion and eternal hell for anyone unfortunate enough to be born into a different culture. You may not like the summary of your views that i posted in this thread - but they are accurate, and your posts are there to be viewed as evidence. When fundamentalists obfuscate in the manner that you do, it is normally due to them trying to delude others or to simply delude themselves. I believe it is the latter in this instance but given that you want others to come round to your way of thinking, i feel it is important to continually question the justifications you have for your beliefs, as they are easily picked apart under scrutiny. A quick study of history reveals what happened when your views had the power of consensus; For those of us fortunate enough to be born into Western society, we should be extremely grateful that they no longer do.

Trust me, I know there wouldn't be a bully circle around me LOL.

I can't convert anyone....not up to me.  I'm here to share the gospel (as believers are called to do) and gives reasons for the hope within me so that others who haven't made a choice can make a more informed decision.

I do not support genocide, slavery, human-sacrifice, coercion and eternal hell for folks LOL, but I know you're content with your summarization so I'm not going to bother explaining and re-explaining what I already have.  My words are clearly and repeatedly written and others can read them.  Others don't agree with your synopsis....only the hardcores like Raymondo, SF, TA do.  It's real simple, I say up y'all say down.  I say left y'all say right.  I say good y'all say bad.   There's nothing of God or God's church you will accept......that's the way some folks are.  

[Man of Steel]

We don't know this, any of it. All stories, spoken/translated/retranslated/transcribed/retranscribed over years and years, like history's silliest telephone game. All in hopes that some unseen, omniscient editor kept everyone honest. All we really know is Constantine made our ancestors Christians, and here we are.

Btw, I'm criticizing your claims, not you. Same as you clowning our intelligence with this "everyone knows" business. No hard feelings.

Textual criticism of ancient documents and manuscripts is not the "telephone game".  The textual critic examines multiple routes of manuscript development across centuries to determine the original wording.  This isn't an oral communication of a singular route of communication transferred from one point to another and the end being a jumbled mess.  That's the errant understanding of the field.  Dan Wallace is one of today's preeminent textual critics and his books dedicate entire chapters to the "telephone game" claim that so many make.

Yes Constantine certainly helped pave the way for Christianity and the early organized church of Rome.   After centuries of persecution Christians finally had a advocate in him.   It was Constantine that was responsible for establishing the Council of Nicea so I would definitely agree he helped shape the predominance of Christianity in the West today.  That wasn't the focus of Nicea though....to make people Christians.  Constantine was primarily concerned about preserving the brief era of peace that was currently being observed.

I'm not making any claims about anyone's intelligence.  Y'all are all smart people....never called into question by me.   I'm reiterating scripture.

[Man of Steel]

"Trust me, I know there wouldn't be a bully circle around me LOL"

We could definatley get you in a bully-circle. I've seen grown men crumble in them. You'd fatigue quickly and end up praying for for God to remove your Worldly existence!

You said you wouldn't put me in a bully circle and come after me and I agreed that y'all wouldn't do something like that.  

Now you would? 

What's all the tough guy stuff?  

[Man of Steel]

Lol, chill out MOS...I'm quite clearly joking.

Ok, my bad...thought was odd LOL.  

fyi.....y'all sound absolutely terrifying.

[Rascal full]

Interesting for me that two obviously highly intelligent guys like MOS and Captain Freedom could have such a difference of opinion. Still, it makes for lively debate and excellent reading here on Getbig.

[Dave D]

"Trust me, I know there wouldn't be a bully circle around me LOL"

We could definatley get you in a bully-circle. I've seen grown men crumble in them. You'd fatigue quickly and end up praying for for God to remove your Worldly existence!

Hahaha haha

 

[Necrosis]

Excellent points.

The bible talks about God as a king and His kingdom. So the structure would be that of a monarchy as opposed to a dictator.  And again slavery is a theme throughout the bible, the idea that you're either a slave to God or a slave to satan, so you're correct with your assessment.

Again your points are spot on. However from the Christian perspective the sufferings, pains and troubles of this life are expected. The bible is a recording of sufferings, where God ultimately shows up as the hero, the christian world view is that we are passing through this life, we weren't meant to live here forever.  

Again your points are well thought.

your like the getbig whisperer, where is the hate brah?

If this life is but a finite blip in eternity, what does it matter? Eternity eliminates purpose, being punished for finite things which ultimately have no real consequence (this is eternity) is twisted.

I think suggesting a hypercomplex entity that existed before anything as a way to explain the complexity we see is logically void. If complexity begets explanation, surely an even more complex thing then the universe, GOD, requires one? It would make sense that thinking about god ultimately ends in illogical fallacies and paradoxical situations, in makes sense that it makes no sense, so telling others anything you think you know about such a thing is absurd, such a person is not to be trusted, they have left reality.

[Man of Steel]

Exodus 34King James Version (KJV)

34 And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the Lord: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

23 Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel.

24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the Lord thy God thrice in the year.

25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

27 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

28 And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

You understand that by highlighting the last verse it further serves my explanation.

As with all scripture it is inspired by God.  Man is the agent of God by which scripture is written, but ultimately the words penned are those of God.

In this case we have two separate writings, but yet all of God and still one and the same.  The rewriting of the original commandments and the covenant decree and stipulations.  Like the divine nature of God and his expression of that nature in Father, Son and Spirit we have 3 persons differently purposed yet all coequal and coeternal and all one God.  

We see some commandments mentioned in the discussion of the covenant, but that's why I asked if buildings are constructed "top down" or "bottom up"?  They're built from the bottom up because the foundation is required and upon that foundation everything is constructed.  The commandments are the foundational, moral code and upon them other decrees are derived and established.  Even within the 10 commandments itself exists a foundation of "loving God" and "loving one another".   All of God's objective moral values rest confidently upon this firm foundation, but even more foundational than "loving God" and "loving one another" is the basest of principles upon which everything is established and that's Jesus Christ.

[BigRo]

Do you believe any scripture outside of Judaism and Christianity is inspired by God?

[Man of Steel]

Do you believe any scripture outside of Judaism and Christianity is inspired by God?

No I do not.

[BigRo]

Very narrow world-view.

Are the Jewish saved then as they have inspired scripture, even if they reject Christ?

[Man of Steel]

Very narrow world-view.

Are the Jewish saved then as they have inspired scripture, even if they reject Christ?

All scripture both new and old testament points to Jesus Christ.

There are jewish folks that belief in Christ and are saved.

Why narrow world view?  There's only one God and one inspired word and that's Jesus Christ.....the logos.

Men have penned some beautiful works and ideas of peace, but there's only one inspired word.

[BigRo]

All scripture both new and old testament points to Jesus Christ.

There are jewish folks that belief in Christ and are saved.

Why narrow world view?  There's only one God and one inspired word and that's Jesus Christ.....the logos.

Men have penned some beautiful works and ideas of peace, but there's only one inspired word.

Really that is a stretch to say all of Judaism and the Old Testament points to Jesus Christ. The majority of Jews reject Jesus. I have seen people interviewed on the streets of Israel and most make a clear distinction between Judaism and Christianity, and most reject Jesus as the Messiah.

If there is only one God then he is infinite and manifest as the whole universe otherwise he would not be God, he is not holed up within the pages of one holy book like a Genie.

Peace.

[Man of Steel]

Really that is a stretch to say all of Judaism and the Old Testament points to Jesus Christ. The majority of Jews reject Jesus. I have seen people interviewed on the streets of Israel and most make a clear distinction between Judaism and Christianity, and most reject Jesus as the Messiah.

If there is only one God then he is infinite and manifest as the whole universe otherwise he would not be God, he is not holed up within the pages of one holy book like a Genie.

Peace.

Not a stretch at all.  The OT and NT point to the Messiah.  The Jews envisioned a mighty, conquering king on a white horse and carrying a sword leading an army to destroy their enemies.  Instead arrived Jesus Christ.  A man with humble beginnings, nothing in his pockets and desire to teach, relay prophecy, perform miracles and die brutally at the hands of the Romans coaxed by the Sanhedrin.

The majority of the world rejects Jesus Christ...the jews are just a portion of that.  I've seen jews, muslims, hindus, unitarians, scientologists, atheists and even some "Christians" reject Jesus Christ.

Exactly he's evident through all of his creation, through his body of believers, through the pages of history and through scripture.  

[BigRo]

Not a stretch at all.  The OT and NT point to the Messiah.  The Jews envisioned a mighty, conquering king on a white horse and carrying a sword leading an army to destroy their enemies.  Instead arrived Jesus Christ.  A man with humble beginnings, nothing in his pockets and desire to teach, relay prophecy, perform miracles and die brutally at the hands of the Romans coaxed by the Sanhedrin.

The majority of the world rejects Jesus Christ...the jews are just a portion of that.  I've seen jews, muslims, hindus, unitarians, scientologists, atheists and even some "Christians" reject Jesus Christ.

Exactly he's evident through all of his creation, through his body of believers, through the pages of history and through scripture.  

Of course the new testament points to the Messiah. As far as I know only a few passages of Jewish scripture talks about the Messiah, certainly not all of the Old Testament...and when he came they rejected him for the most part and still do today as they feel there religion is complete in and of itself and has no need to be redeemed by Jesus. The Messiah for them will always be in the future. Moses and his Torah are enough for them, plus the Talmud.

A Hindu perspective would be that Jesus was an enlightened being come to lift people out of bondage in to the light of their own awakening, but they would reject the idea that he is the one and only ticket to salvation for all beings of the whole universe for all time. I would tend to agree with that view. Are aliens from other planets going to go to hell because they are not saved by Jesus. I remember a Vatican priest mentioning that if Aliens came to earth he would be glad to baptise them, how ridiculous is that.

[10pints]

Of course the new testament points to the Messiah. As far as I know only a few passages of Jewish scripture talks about the Messiah, certainly not all of the Old Testament...and when he came they rejected him for the most part and still do today as they feel there religion is complete in and of itself and has no need to be redeemed by Jesus. The Messiah for them will always be in the future. Moses and his Torah are enough for them, plus the Talmud.

A Hindu perspective would be that Jesus was an enlightened being come to lift people out of bondage in to the light of their own awakening, but they would reject the idea that he is the one and only ticket to salvation for all beings of the whole universe for all time. I would tend to agree with that view. Are aliens from other planets going to go to hell because they are not saved by Jesus. I remember a Vatican priest mentioning that if Aliens came to earth he would be glad to baptise them, how ridiculous is that.

It is in keeping with the utter stupidity of christ-i-insanity and the paedo catholic church.

[Immortal_Technique]

Like in the sky or on tv or anything? Like to say do this and don't do that, im happy with this, im not happy with that.

He doesn't.

Because hes not real.

Now grow up.

Weird that something so obviously made up has entranced the whole Middle 50% of backward America into thinking he's real enough to bother hating on other religions who believe in different made up Gods. What a world we live in.