So why doesnt God appear every now and again?

[obsidian]

i have to say, you are one of my favorite Basement posters.. 

Fixed

[obsidian]

being moral is not dependent on belief in God.

https://carm.org/failure-of-atheism-to-account-for-morality

[Man of Steel]

Thanks, I considered 6th grade but I recall by the 6th grade their logic and reason is further developed ;-)

So close to junior high reasoning abilties!  Guess we'll see how I do throughout the rest of 2016.

Although to be fair I have had to dumb down my responses so they are more brief and more direct and therefore actually read.

[Dave D]

Many good points are being made but no one is  convincing any one here.  It seems each side only grows stronger in their position.

I would like to point out the fact that despite whatever you believe, technically faith is a part of your everyday life. It's woven in your very being. You have faith that your job will pay you on the correct day, that money is deposited into your account, that you will be able to access that money from the account, that the money will pay for goods/services, and so on.

Again it's a technicality but everyone uses faith in everyday life and future planning.

[Kwon_2]

Where does Pulgasari fit in to the grand scheme of things?

Methinks North Korea

[avxo]

Why are you here?

I guess that "because God put me here" is supposed to be the meaningful answer to this deep and insighful question?

Why is there a Universe.

Is that supposed to be a question? If so, it's a poor one - it assumes that there is a why. Is there?

You don't have a clue so don't act like you do. Oh yes, you will probably counter that you never claimed to have a clue - lol! However you do know for a fact there can't be a Creator. How do you know this for a fact? Why do you believe this?

I said that your argument for a Creator is vacuous and logically flawed. You are claiming that everything requires a creator, but you then turn around and claim that the Creator doesn't. This is bullshit. Unless  you can definitively and concusively explain why the Universe requires a Creator but the Creator doesn't, you have no argument.

You ask me what I believe - and you highlight that term as if the word is supposed to offend me or prove something about me. I told you before, there's a difference between rational and irrational beliefs. You believe, irrationally, that a Creator is required and you have faith (whether in the absence of or contrary to evidence) in that Creator. I lack the capability to have faith like you do - I value my mind too much to forego its use.

And let's say hypothetically your parents had a flat tire or had a drink with friends and could not reach you on the phone, what happens to that belief of yours that they would be home in the evening? You believed your parents would be home as usual with you waiting eagerly in the Basement. You had faith that they would bring you food and video games as usual. But it did not happen as you dreamed. What then??

Yawn... ad hominem attacks. The last bastion of the defeated keyboard warriors. What's next? You'll call me a nerd and a pointdexter because I took part in mathematical olympiads instead of playing football when I was in highschool? Or maybe you'll call me a bald-pate because I've lost my hair? Do you really think that insults are effective and that you can come out on top of this conversation if you manage to hurt my feelings?

Believing, based on empirical evidence, that they'll be at their home doesn't mean that they will. And if they aren't, then my worldview doesn't collapse. This is in stark contrast to the belief that you have when it comes to the Creator.

You have faith that your parents would be home, however that might not always be the case.

No, I don't have faith that they will. I believe that they will be based on empirical evidence (they are usually at home on Sunday evenings). There's a difference. It's possible that they won't be home tonight; let's say they don't. So what?

But surely as an Atheist you know for certain a Creator did not create the Universe. That is the impression you are giving.

That's your interpretation. Here's what I've actually said instead: that you claim that everything requires a creator, and that since the Universe is something then then Universe requires a creator, before adding "oh and by the way, the Creator is exempt from this requirement that everything requires a creator." That this claim is logically irrational and inconsistent and the argument you're making is fundamentally flawed.

I also added that even if your argument was consistent and not irrational, it still doesn't help us understand anything. It merely adds another layer of complexity. You claim that, somehow, positing a Creator with unknown (and perhaps unknowable) attributes gives us answers. But it does not - it answers nothing and only brings up more questions.

What is you position then on the origins of the Universe? You just proposed that you make no claim on whether the Universe self started or not.

See Big Bang.

Do you agree that the Universe had a beginning?

Your question presupposes that the well-ordering principle applies to time.

I don't have to prove the Universe is fine tuned. This has already been proven by leading Scientists.

Appeal to authority, but let's let that slide for a second. Please tell us which leading scientists have proven that the Universe is fine-tuned.

And who said the Universe was designed with us in mind? Not me. The human species is only 200,000 years old. That's young compared to most species with some being a few million years old. Hostility could very well be part of the designer's plan and necessary so species can adapt via evolution. I see evolution as just part of the design.

In other words, "there's no evidence pointing towards design, and that implies a designer!"

The Universe was designed for everything. Galaxies, Stars, Solar Systems, Planets, Earth, Dinosaurs, Megalodons, Monkeys, Humans, Cars, Computers etc.

Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.

We are star dust. Your great great great..... parents were ancient stars that died before our Solar System was born.

Deep man... deep.

[avxo]

 

No offense at all meant towards avxo....I like him too!

Haha! Those are awesome! Although I must point out that posting PMs is a bannable offense on getbig!

[avxo]

Many good points are being made but no one is  convincing any one here.  It seems each side only grows stronger in their position.

I would like to point out the fact that despite whatever you believe, technically faith is a part of your everyday life. It's woven in your very being. You have faith that your job will pay you on the correct day, that money is deposited into your account, that you will be able to access that money from the account, that the money will pay for goods/services, and so on.

Again it's a technicality but everyone uses faith in everyday life and future planning.

To have faith is to believe something in the absence of or contrary to evidence... You have faith that your <INSERT DEITY HERE> will take the cancer away without radiation. Or that there's some cosmic supernatural justice underlying the Universe and that everyone will get their dues.

You have a rational belief that your job will pay you, based on a legally binding contract that can be enforced through a Court system. Of course, this doesn't mean you won't get the shaft from a bad employer who will refuse to pay. Only that your belief isn't faith-based.

There's a difference between rational belief and blind faith.


is based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

[Dave D]

To have faith is to believe something in the absence of or contrary to evidence... You have faith that your <INSERT DEITY HERE> will take the cancer away without radiation. Or that there's some cosmic supernatural justice underlying the Universe and that everyone will get their dues.

You have a rational belief that your job will pay you, based on a legally binding contract that can be enforced through a Court system. Of course, this doesn't mean you won't get the shaft from a bad employer who will refuse to pay. Only that your belief isn't faith-based.

There's a difference between rational belief and blind faith.


is based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Lol that's an extreme version of the definition of faith..... wasn't this Steve Jobs method of fighting cancer (and it had nothing to do with a belief in a deity, but a belief in holistic healing)?  The second part of your statement sounds more like the concept of karma or "reaping what one has sown."

I think we are agreeing though. I didn't mean faith as a spiritual aprehension without proof I meant it as a complete trust in. ...... whatever be it  daily routine or rational belief.

I think both sides are going to the extreme of their definition of one another, when their reality is somewhere in the middle.

Most Christians don't live in a "blind" faith other than they believe in "God" that loves them (and the occasional  get rich quick ponsi scheme). Those who would deny radiation treatment for cancer treatment  are either simpletons or someone who is in an advanced state and isn't willing to go through the trouble and pain of the treatments, the God will heal me line is likely more for their survivors who cant/dont/won't understand their position.

Many atheists wouldn't deny the possibility  of another advanced life form in the universe (which is what Christianity is really based in, a "higher power" or a more advanced life than ours).

Good points nonetheless.

[bigmc]

Here's the thing, the extreme example (that isn't based any real examples) and the conclusions reached are basically a fallacy of exaggeration.  Last second, deathbed conversions such as this do not occur for the fully twisted, evil folks.  Pol Pot, Mae Tse Tung, Hitler, Stalin, etc....did not convert from their evil, reprobate ways moments before death....simply false.  And to then conclude that given the possibility that this type of conversion is possible ("while my sweet, nonbelieving grandmother that never hurt a fly goes to hell") that Christ and Christianity is perverted and twisted.  It's an example purely for shock value, but grounded in nothing.  Scripture is full of examples of fully evil and reprobate folks going to their deaths fully evil and reprobate....these folks RARELY (if ever) change their ways.  Jeffrey Dahmer didn't murder some of his unbelieving victims and send them to hell and then convert to Christianity in his last breaths after being stabbed in prison and go to heaven with Jesus...it's nonsense.

you havent disagreed with me

just waffled a load of shit

you are basically saying that most evil people dont repent so the example has no merit

what a crock of shit

you lose tubby 

[10pints]

The thing I find ridiculous about the theist position is that: they are quite happy to accept that change is a fundamental constant of their day to day reality, yet they want to halt the change in their thinking to circa 2000 years ago. Those who are so deep into the delusion will go further, and deny that change / evolution even occurs. Next they will be telling us that the earth is flat....

[Necrosis]

Do you have a clue? Why are you here? Why is there a Universe. You don't have a clue so don't act like you do. Oh yes, you will probably counter that you never claimed to have a clue - lol! However you do know for a fact there can't be a Creator. How do you know this for a fact? Why do you believe this?
And let's say hypothetically your parents had a flat tire or had a drink with friends and could not reach you on the phone, what happens to that belief of yours that they would be home in the evening? You believed your parents would be home as usual with you waiting eagerly in the Basement. You had faith that they would bring you food and video games as usual. But it did not happen as you dreamed. What then??

You have faith that your parents would be home, however that might not always be the case.
But surely as an Atheist you know for certain a Creator did not create the Universe. That is the impression you are giving. What is you position then on the origins of the Universe? You just proposed that you make no claim on whether the Universe self started or not. Do you agree that the Universe had a beginning?

I don't have to prove the Universe is fine tuned. This has already been proven by leading Scientists.


The Universe was designed for everything. Galaxies, Stars, Solar Systems, Planets, Earth, Dinosaurs, Megalodons, Monkeys, Humans, Cars, Computers etc.

Faith is belief without evidence, if you were a smart human, you could deduce simply from that definition that belief with evidence must exist, that is the opposite of faith. You have to pick one, believing his parents are coming home is based on evidence and probability, this is not faith, you are amalgamating definitions to form an incoherent argument.n Something occurring other then what is expected does not make the belief a faith based one, how silly is that?

The universe is not fine tuned, we have nothing to compare it to, if you had one car and no others existed could you say it's fine tuned? how would you know? perhaps the values could only be what they are, some scientists make such a claim, likely religious ones, the thing by using the appeal to authority is that no one is an expert in this question, it's opinion as it cannot be tested.

If the force of gravity was weaker the planets would never form, and if my grandmother had wheels she would be a bicycle.

you must be pellius

[Necrosis]

Are you a scientist? Computers can simulate the development of Universe. And if any of the values are changed even slightly, boom no galaxies, planets or life on planets.

What a stupid question, are you a scientist LOL, you mean cosmologist? you see social scientists exist, you may want to be more specific if you are trying to sound smart.

Why would one presume the values could be anything other then they are? if they were we wouldn't be here to comment on how specific they are, perhaps they are not specific, nothing to compare it to.

[SupplementGuy]

Faith is belief without evidence, if you were a smart human, you could deduce simply from that definition that belief with evidence must exist, that is the opposite of faith.

you must be pellius

Wrong. Credulity is belief without evidence.

Faith is assured expectation of the things to come, realities though not yet beheld.

Or if you prefer secular definition: strong belief in someone or something.

[Necrosis]

Wrong. Credulity is belief without evidence.

Faith is assured expectation of the things to come, realities though not yet beheld.

Or if you prefer secular definition: strong belief in someone or something.

Credulity is a tendency to believe, a bias with slight or uncertain evidence, faith is belief in absence of evidence.

How could you fuck up the definitions that bad with google right there?

[10pints]

Credulity is a tendency to believe, a bias with slight or uncertain evidence, faith is belief in absence of evidence.

How could you fuck up the definitions that bad with google right there?

  That made me chuckle.

[rocket]

Wrong. Credulity is belief without evidence.

Faith is assured expectation of the things to come, realities though not yet beheld.

Or if you prefer secular definition: strong belief in someone or something.

Many secular circles seem to correlate faith as explicit knowledge and frown upon any suggestions of a lower quantity than the absolute.

..

It is plausible that in a "many worlds" situation, there might be "worlds" in which there really is a creator of this particular region with just the same predilection for having fuck all to do with us, yet judging us on our err.. "faith" in a whisper.

I haven't read this thread up until now because the fact is, nobody wants to be wrong.  Nobody will be convinced of anything.  It's a pointless exercise in which the faithful attempt to defend themselves and we, those who either do not believe or have no proof in which to believe with, look at you poor fools as deluded and of limited intelligence.

It's the same dance, over and over again.  Fact is, faith has a constructive and positive impact on many people's lives and being smarter than someone doesn't make life better - in many cases, it is the exact opposite.   

But it is clearly at the cost of being able to thinking critically - because the world we live in does not lend much credence to your faith actually being correct.

Choose your adventure, it's pointless trying to choose other people's.  They will believe in precisely what they want to believe in.

[BigRo]

too much ego and not enough meditation and mushrooms in this thread of peace.

[Man of Steel]

Haha! Those are awesome! Although I must point out that posting PMs is a bannable offense on getbig!

Ok, that makes me feel good cause it was all in fun! 

[Man of Steel]

The thing I find ridiculous about the theist position is that: they are quite happy to accept that change is a fundamental constant of their day to day reality, yet they want to halt the change in their thinking to circa 2000 years ago. Those who are so deep into the delusion will go further, and deny that change / evolution even occurs. Next they will be telling us that the earth is flat....

Well our thinking isn't about a 2000 year old idea....God never changes so the beliefs we hold to are as timeless as God is.

[Man of Steel]

Credulity is a tendency to believe, a bias with slight or uncertain evidence, faith is belief in absence of evidence.

How could you fuck up the definitions that bad with google right there?

No that whole "faith is belief without evidence" bit is completely incorrect, but I understand where the unbeliever is coming from.....it's a matter of ignorance and that's ok.

Hebrews 11:1
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

As believers in Christ we have assurance of who God is and his reality in our lives via the presence of the Holy Spirit.  My faith is rock solid via the repeat demonstration and testable presence of the Holy Spirit in my life.   Now we have faithful assurance of God's promises not yet fulfilled in our lives, but things of God revealed today we have absolute proof of and our changed lives are evidence of God's work and relationship with us.  We stand confidently and faithfully in his promises to come because of what is revealed of him today and in the past.  We have assurance of scriptural past because of indwelling, tangible spirit in the present.

[Wiggs]

Well our thinking isn't about a 2000 year old idea....God never changes so the beliefs we hold to are as timeless as God is.

You're right, The Most High never changes  so the idea that his laws have been done away with shows that modern Christianity doesn't follow the bible. My people's book was taken and religions were created from it. After the Hebrews were ran out of Israel by the Romans and they either fled into Africa or were taken as slaves elsewhere, our book was taken and twisted by Constintine to created the Christianity  you see today. Pre-Constintine Christianity is nothing like Christianity today. It's why it's so easy for me to skillfully  slay modern Christians with the Bible because they don't follow it. They follow doctrines.

[Kwon_2]

God will emerge as a Black James Bond, stirred and quite shaken from what is left of Nibiru after the impact.

[Wiggs]

God will emerge as a Black James Bond, stirred and quite shaken from what is left of Nibiru after the impact.

The Most High, aka The God of Abraham,  Isaac and Jacob is black. God created the original man in his image, the original man is so called black. God has a spiritual  body. He sits on his throne in heaven. Deal with it.

[Man of Steel]

You're right, The Most High never changes  so the idea that his laws have been done away with shows that modern Christianity doesn't follow the bible. My people's book was taken and religions were created from it. After the Hebrews were ran out of Israel by the Romans and they either fled into Africa or were taken as slaves elsewhere, our book was taken and twisted by Constintine to created the Christianity  you see today. Pre-Constintine Christianity is nothing like Christianity today. It's why it's so easy for me to skillfully  slay modern Christians with the Bible because they don't follow it. They follow doctrines.

You here to slay me Wiggs?  I'd rather just have civil discussions if that's alright.  We have a white devil on the board and it isn't me.  

You're welcome to dialogue though, but starting like that isn't necesary with me.    I'm not intimidated in the slightest with puffed up bravado...it's simply unnecessary.  

I've read a lot of BHI materials and watched HOURS of their doctrines online.  Lots of talented men diving into scripture...it's the motivation and predetermined conclusions that are unfortunate.

But you are welcome to say what you need to say.