IFBB pro Beau Baisden - kidney failure

[pellius]

great morals there

wouldn't expect any less from a half mongoloid or whatever you are

You think saving lives and ending suffering is an immoral thing.

It's funny, people think it would be a good thing if more people donated a kidney to help others. Just as long as they do it for free.

As I said before, your tune would change very fast if you or a loved one needed a kidney to live. Imagine if your daughter or niece needed a kidney within months or she will die and the only way you could get it was to buy it on the black market. Would you? Or would you let her die?

[drkaje]

Why not change US laws so organs could be harvested from prisoners and $50K given to crime victims? If the practice is good enough for the third world....

[Victor VonDoom]

If you think an influx of 50 grand to the average destitute person will "lift" them out of poverty then I'm going to be forthright and admit we just can't even get started discussing things.

Beyond that, how would a kidney sale be taxed?

Doom agrees.  Hard to believe anyone can think like this.  That money will be gone in less a year.  What do you sell next?  Bah!

[Coffeed]

Why not change US laws so organs could be harvested from prisoners and $50K given to crime victims? If the practice is good enough for the third world....

Who is going to take a sex offenders kidney?!

Worthless!

[pellius]

If you think an influx of 50 grand to the average destitute person will "lift" them out of poverty then I'm going to be forthright and admit we just can't even get started discussing things.

Beyond that, how would a kidney sale be taxed?

Many successful businesses has been started by less. But that argument is irrelevant. The more relevant point is who are you to decided for others what they can and cannot do with their money and body.

You think it's OK to donate a kidney for free but heaven forbid the donor should get anything in return.

Now I ask you, if you or a loved one needed a kidney to survive and the only way you could get one in time is to buy it, would you?

[pellius]

I'm unworthy of such careful wording, LOL!

Someone in a third world country is never going to be going to make an informed decision on their health when looking at what $50K can do for their family in the long run. According to the WEF (World Economic Forum) the average Indian woman earns $1,185/year.

Ah, so you know better what the average person living in a third world country should do to improve their lives then they do. So you believe you should be the one making decisions about their lives than they should. The fact that you state the low yearly income only makes my case. Fifty grand would indeed change their lives. Besides, you over look the fact that if it were legal kidney donation would no longer be limited to the third world and their exploiters.

Now I pose you the same question, and everyone who disagrees with me for that matter, if you could save yourself or a loved one only by buying a kidney because of time constraints, would you?

[pellius]

Why not change US laws so organs could be harvested from prisoners and $50K given to crime victims? If the practice is good enough for the third world....

I thought you would be smarter than that.

I feel almost embarrassed for you that I have to explain this. I carry a card indicating that upon my death I freely consent to have any of my organs or any of my body parts taken and used to help others.

I'm going to give you a hint and say that the operative word here is "freely". I'll let you figure out the rest.

You haven't answered my question?

[mr.turbo]

Hey Pelius, we missed your input on the free market thinker thread.

I will leave yall to decide weather a human is ideally reduced to a set of components to be bought and sold.

The wonders of the free market!

 

[pellius]

Doom agrees.  Hard to believe anyone can think like this.  That money will be gone in less a year.  What do you sell next?  Bah!

Again it doesn't matter. The issue is why do you think it's OK for someone to donate their kidney for free but not OK for them to give a kidney for any amount of money they decide on whether 50 grand or 50 dollars?

Answer my blanket question: would you save yourself or a lover one if the only way you can do it in time was to buy a kidney from the black market or would you rather die or let someone you  love die?

[pellius]

Hey Pelius, we missed your input on the free market thinker thread.

I will leave yall to decide weather a human is ideally reduced to a set of components to be bought and sold.

The wonders of the free market!

 

Not aware of the thread.

And we are in a sense bought on sold on what we bring to the labor marker. Whether it's with our brain or with our sweat. The issue is always not whether you or me think it is good or bad but rather who should decide.

We all know abusing steroids, over eating or smoking is bad but who should ultimately decided? I tend to lean on the side of personal freedom.

[Disgusted]

You may donate freely, but right now it is illegal to sell a kidney.  There is talk about lifting this restriction and allowing kidneys to be sold (we already allow paid plasma, sperm, and egg donation).  If kidneys could be sold, it is estimated that one would sell for $50-$80k.  We all have two kidneys, but most healthy people can live a normal life with just one.  So, if you could donate one kidney and live with just one… would you sell and pocket the coin?

Guy I know got one donated to him and in return donated the other guy 15K.

[The_Punisher]

oh no, I'm shocked, not another Kidney failure.. ...who's next?

[pellius]

Guy I know got one donated to him and in return donated the other guy 15K.

LOL! Now that is Pellius approved!

It's OK with the Nanny State government as long as you say it's donated and the pretense of morality is preserved.

Both parties benefit as it should be.

[drkaje]

Ah, so you know better what the average person living in a third world country should do to improve their lives then they do. So you believe you should be the one making decisions about their lives than they should. The fact that you state the low yearly income only makes my case. Fifty grand would indeed change their lives. Besides, you over look the fact that if it were legal kidney donation would no longer be limited to the third world and their exploiters.

Now I pose you the same question, and everyone who disagrees with me for that matter, if you could save yourself or a loved one only by buying a kidney because of time constraints, would you?

The power imbalance between someone with $50K (or more) needing a kidney and some schlub in Bangladesh is too great.

If it's morally fine, allow selling organs here and see how many poor people who sell their kidneys end up on lifetime dialysis or dead.

[pellius]

The power imbalance between someone with $50K (or more) needing a kidney and some schlub in Bangladesh is too great.

If it's morally fine, allow selling organs here and see how many poor people who sell their kidneys end up on lifetime dialysis or dead.

There's always a power imbalance between the rich and the poor. It doesn't nothing to even that balance by limiting what a rich  person can buy and what a poor person can sell.

How many people donating their kidneys for free end up on lifetime dialysis or dead?

And why are you avoiding my simple but very relevant question?

Do you oppose and disagree with the situation that Disgusted just related?

[nicorulez]

Why not change US laws so organs could be harvested from prisoners and $50K given to crime victims? If the practice is good enough for the third world....

Dr. J, I think that is a great idea except for one issue. The rate of chronic Hepatitis C approaches 50% in the prisoner population. When I was a resident in Internal Medicine in Texas,  I worked at the state prison hospital in Galveston (TDCJ affiliated with UTMB), over 50% had Hep C in early 2002 along with a high percentage of HIV. That I believe is one reason why more prisoners are not kidney transplant candidates. Moreover, we have a pussy in office who would never allow such a thing. Now if crazy Donald is elected, who the fuck knows what will come about.

[pellius]

I was in Madagascar a few years ago, and remember getting back home and hearing of an incident happening not long after, where three European men were suspected of mutilating some local children for organ harvesting. The locals tracked the men down, tortured them, then burned them alive.  

Another reason why the black market should be eliminated.

[The Abdominal Snoman]

One of the must unjust policies ever.

Everybody in the transplant process makes money. Everybody except the actual donor.

I wouldn't donate a kidney but I can see someone in such a desperate situation that they would. But it doesn't matter if they are desperate for cash or just want a fancy car. It's none of my business. It's their body and they can do whatever they want with it.

It might be their body but when the person with just one kidney gets older, it becomes societies problem when that person is in and out of the hospital. And like someone mentioned, donor problems are very common and that alone puts a strain on the health care system. So instead of a sick person and a healthy person, many times society has two sick people who probably aren't working and paying into the tax system. Bottom line is everyone is going to die someday. Deal the hand your dealt and move on.

[drkaje]

There's always a power imbalance between the rich and the poor. It doesn't nothing to even that balance by limiting what a rich  person can buy and what a poor person can sell.

How many people donating their kidneys for free end up on lifetime dialysis or dead?

And why are you avoiding my simple but very relevant question?

Do you oppose and disagree with the situation that Disgusted just related?

Don't take my word for it:

Survival in the US http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3559132/

Survival in third world countries. Please note where they track economic improvement in donor lives. http://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/128606

Third world countries shouldn't be organ farms for the wealthy.

Nico, the prison thing was sarcasm.

[pellius]

It might be their body but when the person with just one kidney gets older, it becomes societies problem when that person is in and out of the hospital. And like someone mentioned, donor problems are very common and that alone puts a strain on the health care system. So instead of a sick person and a healthy person, many times society has two sick people who probably aren't working and paying into the tax system. Bottom line is everyone is going to die someday. Deal the hand your dealt and move on.

Do you have any reference to back up your claim that those who donate a kidney having problems due to donating their kidney is very common.

As far as a burden to the health care system this applies to a multitude of behaviors. Do you want to limit what foods people can eat as heart disease is the number one killer and almost entirely diet related? Should we outlaw motorcycles, mountain climbing, tobacco and liquor and other risky behavior that effects your health and burdens the health care system? Do you value health and safety above personal freedom?

When you say "Bottom line is everyone is going to die someday. Deal the hand your dealt and move on." are you implying that you are against donating kidneys across the board?

If one of your children needed a kidney and you could buy one, would you?  Or would you let your child die? After all, we are all going to die someday and maybe your child should just "deal with it".

Edit:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3559132/

The overall evidence suggests that living kidney donors have survival similar to that of nondonors and that their risk of end-stage renal disease (ESRD) is not increased.

CONCLUSIONS

Survival and the risk of ESRD in carefully screened kidney donors appear to be similar to those in the general population. Most donors who were studied had a preserved GFR, normal albumin excretion, and an excellent quality of life.

[pellius]

Don't take my word for it:

Survival in the US http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3559132/

Survival in third world countries. Please note where they track economic improvement in donor lives. http://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/128606

Third world countries shouldn't be organ farms for the wealthy.

Nico, the prison thing was sarcasm.

The third world wouldn't be exploited as organ farms if it were legal.

And again, sometimes it's not whether something is good or bad for you but rather who should decide?

Why do you continue to avoid my very relevant and straight forward question?

[Nether Animal]

I thought God cured him?

What was wrong with him?

Nvm, thought it was B-Pak.

[The Abdominal Snoman]

Do you have any reference to back up your claim that those who donate a kidney having problems due to donating their kidney is very common.

As far as a burden to the health care system this applies to a multitude of behaviors. Do you want to limit what foods people can eat as heart disease is the number one killer and almost entirely diet related? Should we outlaw motorcycles, mountain climbing, tobacco and liquor and other risky behavior that effects your health and burdens the health care system? Do you value health and safety above personal freedom?

When you say "Bottom line is everyone is going to die someday. Deal the hand your dealt and move on." are you implying that you are against donating kidneys across the board?

If one of your children needed a kidney and you could buy one, would you?  Or would you let your child die? After all, we are all going to die someday and maybe your child should just "deal with it".

Edit:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3559132/

The overall evidence suggests that living kidney donors have survival similar to that of nondonors and that their risk of end-stage renal disease (ESRD) is not increased.

CONCLUSIONS

Survival and the risk of ESRD in carefully screened kidney donors appear to be similar to those in the general population. Most donors who were studied had a preserved GFR, normal albumin excretion, and an excellent quality of life.

Here's an interesting article on the subject. On one hand the author is saying that problems in donors are not common. And then it's says that hospitals loose track of 2/3 of all donors. They move away to another area and use other hospitals etc. You basically sign your life away as a human guinea pig when you become a donor. And problems you may have may go unreported by the donor community unless is very serious.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/07/02/155979681/organ-donation-has-consequences-some-donors-arent-prepared-for

[pellius]

DrKaje, do you believe that more good would be done if more people donated kidneys for free? If so, why? If not, why not?

And also please answer my original blanket question about what you would do if one of children needed a kidney? Would you pay for it if that was the only way to get on in time?

I am always up for a honest and open debate and address all the questions directed at me. Unless you have an agenda and not interested in trying to determine what's best by considering different view points, please show me equal consideration and answer my questions open and honestly.

[pellius]

Here's an interesting article on the subject. On one hand the author is saying that problems in donors are not common. And then it's says that hospitals loose track of 2/3 of all donors. They move away to another area and use other hospitals etc.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/07/02/155979681/organ-donation-has-consequences-some-donors-arent-prepared-for

You ignore two very straight forward and relevant questions.

OK, so you are not interested in an honest debate just promoting your agenda and preconceived point of view.