Mike Mentzer - Discussion

[FREAKgeek]

Those idiotic mentzer/hardgainer/Stuart mcrobert routines built their reputation on the fact that many of the people trying them out are chronically overtrained on the high volume routines touted in all the magazines, it's the defatiguing from the volume routine that causes the great initial gains, after that it becomes a constant struggle to gain size but they are decent for strength but there are far better methods of training for both size and strength

Beyond Brawn starts off as a good read. Then it's like Stuart taking 20 pages on what can be said on a paragraph or two. The guy just doesn't know when to stop.

His quest to do, I forgot the details, deadlift 400+ for 20 reps is telling. Gotta keep pushing the weight, even micro load. All about intensity, anything else is futile. Blame the injuries for non stellar form. Too stubborn.

[FREAKgeek]

i still do not get how zane won that show

i bet he sucked and fucked all the judges

You're up against the chemist conditioning

[drmarkp]

.. I am a proponent of high intensity, but in my opinion the best version of Mentzer's physique was not achieved as a result of 'heavy duty' training - but in spite of it

Mentzer was a genetic phenom who at 19 looked phenomenal and had already placed top 10 at the 71' 'Mr. America' contest

While true that he may have 'chronically over trained' at some point in his pre nautilus days, with his genetics all he would have had to do is tone his volume down a bit and he could have achieved a physique at least equal to his best ever on the Olympia stage

He may have learned a lot from Art Jones in terms of putting things in perspective, but even with conventional training and with some insight and perspective; he would have been a top champion with or without his extreme approach to heavy duty

He took merely took one dogma and replaced it with his own

[Simple Simon]

.. I am a proponent of high intensity, but in my opinion the best version of Mentzer's physique was not achieved as a result of 'heavy duty' training - but in spite of it

Mentzer was a genetic phenom who at 19 looked phenomenal and had already placed top 10 at the 71' 'Mr. America' contest

While true that he may have 'chronically over trained' at some point in his pre nautilus days, with his genetics all he would have had to do is tone his volume down a bit and he could have achieved a physique at least equal to his best ever on the Olympia stage

He may have learned a lot from Art Jones in terms of putting things in perspective, but even with conventional training and with some insight and perspective; he would have been a top champion with or without his extreme approach to heavy duty

He took merely took one dogma and replaced it with his own

we are all limited by genetics, doesnt matter what you do to lift, as long as you stress a muscle it will respond with growth, or not depending on your genetic make up.

[NarcissisticDeity]

 

[nukkaready]

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[dj181]

^^^ he's got the biggest arms in that line up

[NarcissisticDeity]

 

[jollygiant]

Beyond Brawn starts off as a good read. Then it's like Stuart taking 20 pages on what can be said on a paragraph or two. The guy just doesn't know when to stop.

His quest to do, I forgot the details, deadlift 400+ for 20 reps is telling. Gotta keep pushing the weight, even micro load. All about intensity, anything else is futile. Blame the injuries for non stellar form. Too stubborn.

I think the book is good. talks a lot of sense.

[PJim]

240 ks for 15 is very good impressive

what was you starting weight and reps,  and how long did it take you to get there? 

And how often did you dead?

I'm a bit pissed at myself as kept a record of everything in various notepads over the years, but don't know where they all are so couldn't give you a full record. 

I'm going to attempt to start the consolidated routine again as soon as I've found a new training partner in line with my schedule. I will let you know if and when I do.

[nukkaready]

.

[oldschoolfan]

the thing with mike is you could read an article of his and it got you to think

beside arnold, i cant think of one bodybuilder that wrote interesting articles,about training. 

[dj181]

I'm a bit pissed at myself as kept a record of everything in various notepads over the years, but don't know where they all are so couldn't give you a full record. 

I'm going to attempt to start the consolidated routine again as soon as I've found a new training partner in line with my schedule. I will let you know if and when I do.

good stuff

do you happen to remember how much you pulled the 1st time you did it?

lifting 550 for 15 could possibly put  you at a 700 pound single

[Never1AShow]

the thing with mike is you could read an article of his and it got you to think

beside arnold, i cant think of one bodybuilder that wrote interesting articles,about training. 

Athletes aren't authors.  And were the Mentzer articles from the period in the 70s when his mind was sacked out on amphetamines?  Frankly the lesson from Mentzer is that speed affects your mind and fucks you up much worse than steroids.

[_bruce_]

.

Awesome!

[dseiler]

Athletes aren't authors.  And were the Mentzer articles from the period in the 70s when his mind was sacked out on amphetamines?  Frankly the lesson from Mentzer is that speed affects your mind and fucks you up much worse than steroids.

Most of his articles were like that. Wordy, yes, but they got you to think beyond the convention.

[PJim]

good stuff

do you happen to remember how much you pulled the 1st time you did it?

lifting 550 for 15 could possibly put  you at a 700 pound single

Somewhere around 160kg for a set was where I started off at from what I can remember. Done in the same fashion, super slow negatives, so a whole different exercise done in that fashion.

I'm really big on rest pause at the moment, really useful whilst I'm training on my own.

[Henda]

Beyond Brawn starts off as a good read. Then it's like Stuart taking 20 pages on what can be said on a paragraph or two. The guy just doesn't know when to stop.

His quest to do, I forgot the details, deadlift 400+ for 20 reps is telling. Gotta keep pushing the weight, even micro load. All about intensity, anything else is futile. Blame the injuries for non stellar form. Too stubborn.

I agree, there's Some good info/principles in the book it does hammer home the importance of progressive workouts but it's routines are far too conservative, especially the lack of direct arm work which I took as gospel along with all his other advices when I followed his routines in late teenage years which resulted in barely 15 inch arms at 225 bodyweight which looked ridiculous.

[dj181]

Somewhere around 160kg for a set was where I started off at from what I can remember. Done in the same fashion, super slow negatives, so a whole different exercise done in that fashion.

I'm really big on rest pause at the moment, really useful whilst I'm training on my own.

slow negatives on deads must be a real bitch

I believe Mentzer stated somewhere that rest pause is best with push exercises,  mainly chest and delt work

[SilverSpoon]

slow negatives on deads must be a real bitch

I believe Mentzer stated somewhere that rest pause is best with push exercises,  mainly chest and delt work

I used to consult with Mentzer.  I truly don't think he had any better routines than Heavy Duty II.  The consolidation routine was too little in the way of exercise, and would lead to deconditioning.  I remember one guy on the boards (Jammin' Jake Sands) used to train once every 5 weeks with this routine.  No, I am not joking.
 

I had figured out doing slow negatives on deads was a great way to train for quite some time prior to my consults.  Turns out Vince Anello was training a 6 second negative for many years.  There is nothing new under the sun.  The answer is to train briefly, intensely, progressively and consistently if you are natural.  Your results will speak for themselves.  And if you are something short of a genetic marvel, you will be better than most of your friends, but will not look like Mike O'Hearn, Skip LaCour or Jeff Willet.

I had one friend who had the genetics of a Casey Viator (huge forearms and calves) who remained natural.  Very impressive, but was never cut or stage ready.  Me, I vastly improved from where I started, so I was/am happy.

[Zillotch]

.

bodybuilding doesnt get much better

[dj181]

I used to consult with Mentzer.  I truly don't think he had any better routines than Heavy Duty II.  The consolidation routine was too little in the way of exercise, and would lead to deconditioning.  I remember one guy on the boards (Jammin' Jake Sands) used to train once every 5 weeks with this routine.  No, I am not joking.
 

I had figured out doing slow negatives on deads was a great way to train for quite some time prior to my consults.  Turns out Vince Anello was training a 6 second negative for many years.  There is nothing new under the sun.  The answer is to train briefly, intensely, progressively and consistently if you are natural.  Your results will speak for themselves.  And if you are something short of a genetic marvel, you will be better than most of your friends, but will not look like Mike O'Hearn, Skip LaCour or Jeff Willet.

I had one friend who had the genetics of a Casey Viator (huge forearms and calves) who remained natural.  Very impressive, but was never cut or stage ready.  Me, I vastly improved from where I started, so I was/am happy.

thanks for the feedback

do you mean the routine where one trains once very 4-7 days or the one that starts off with training 3 days a week?

[NarcissisticDeity]

 

[Straw Man]

Mentzer trained the entire body 3x a week at the time he won Mr America and I think Ray did the same thing as well (fully body 3x a week) when he won in 1979

Some recent studies have shown that muscle protein synthesis only takes 24 to 48 hours (Jerry Brainum wrote about this in his newsletter earlier this year and had cited the studies. He also said that more experienced trainers tend to be closer to 24 hours.) 

Mentzer's later concepts of very short and very infrequent workouts seemed a bit loony to me even at the time he was promoting them. 

I think the low volume of true working sets per muscle group (~ 4 to 8 depending on the body party and frequency) makes a lot of sense and working each bodypart at least 2 x a week and 3 x if you can handle it.

This is the summary of the article from Brainums site (appliedmetabolics.com)

I won't post the entire article since it is long and it's also a subcription site

  It's a common observation that the more advanced you are in your training, the slower the gains. Those who are new to training make the most rapid gains for a number of reasons, with a primary reason being greater neuromuscular efficiency, or communication between the brain and the muscles. But after about a year or so, muscle gains come far and few between. Some scientists looked at all the factors that underlie muscular hypertrophy or growth and concluded that perhaps the age-old advice of providing adequate rest between workout sessions may not completely apply to advanced trainees. The reason why you need to rest for 24 to 48 hours between workouts is related to factors such as the muscle protein synthesis process. But MPS peaks in 48 hours in beginners, but only 24 hours in those with more training experience. Much of the reason why you need that much rest relates to the higher training volume that most trainees use in their training, such as 16 sets or more per muscle group. But according to a new hypothesis, those with more training experience can likely build more muscle by training more frequently, training each muscle two or even three times a week, but use a lower volume of training, such as 4 sets per muscle group with a higher level of training intensity (to complete muscular failure). This style of training would allow complete recovery, but not lead to overtraining. After about 16 weeks of this more frequent training, a trainee would then switch to a more conventional style featuring less frequency for 24 weeks.

[NarcissisticDeity]