Mike Mentzer - Discussion

[SGT BARNES]

Couldnt even beat twink Zane.  Some legend.

smart? he created exactly nothing new or useful, his one rep "hit" bullshit has long since been laughed out of existence.

hes nothing but a failed BB who was too butthurt to compete and not smart enough to make a living selling his bullshit training plan. So he chose to die a junkie.

[pellius]

Couldnt even beat twink Zane.  Some legend.

smart? he created exactly nothing new or useful, his one rep "hit" bullshit has long since been laughed out of existence.

hes nothing but a failed BB who was too butthurt to compete and not smart enough to make a living selling his bullshit training plan. So he chose to die a junkie.

"Created nothing new or useful"? True, most of his ideas originated from Arthur Jones but to say he added nothing new or useful is beyond ludicrous. I wonder how old you were or if you were even born during Mentzer's hey day. Back then no one was talking about recovery ability and distinguishing between localized and systemic recovery. It was all more, more, more. "Specialization" routines to "bring up weak body parts" always entire more frequency, more duration. The concept of intensity was rarely if ever brought up. There was no pre exhaust concepts, emphasis and the importance of eccentric contraction -- Mentzer talked about rest pause training when Danta and sons were still in diapers.

Six day a week training, body part 2-3 times a week was the rule before Mentzer arrived on the scene. Even relating the correlation between size and strength and training for progression took a far, far back seat to getting "the pump" and volume. Set after set after set. To be so breathtakingly ignorant and claim that HIT has long since been laughed out of existence. What planet are you living on? Various forms of high intensity training is being practiced by millions throughout the world. Ever heard of Dorian Yates? And never did Mentzer talk or promote "one rep bull shit." In fact, Jones specifically cautioned against such practice unless you were a power lifter. He was adamant in the difference between demonstrating strength and developing it. He believed that one rep training did nothing to stimulate size and strength.

And again your ignorance is beyond staggering. Mentzer was very successful selling and promoting his theories and travelled around the world doing so. He's been to places, experienced other cultures, met people throughout the world at a level that you will never even remotely come close to. And it was due solely to his huge fan base that still exist to this day.

Yes, he was a flawed man like all of us and it was his undoing but his impact in bbing will be long remember and discussed just like we are doing now. Just like people around the world are doing now.

Many disagree with Mentzer and vehemently dispute his claims and beliefs, but it's rare to see someone like you take such a personal offense to the point of losing all sense of reason and rationality making accusations and claims that are demonstrably false. It seems Mentzer had a lot more influence on your psyche than you are willing to admit or are even aware of. You act like he personally hurt your feelings and it seems to have scared you for life.

[Van_Bilderass]

And never did Mentzer talk or promote "one rep bull shit." In fact, Jones specifically cautioned against such practice unless you were a power lifter. He was adamant in the difference between demonstrating strength and developing it. He believed that one rep training did nothing to stimulate size and strength.

I seem to remember his last evolution in training theory where you only held a weight for like 15 seconds. Say a leg extension, you held the weight at the contracted position to failure and that was it. I'm not sure but I think you then rested for 2 or 3 weeks until you did the same thing again. Do you remember this? It was in his last articles for "all natural" MD as I recall.

Mentzer was a huge influence on me wrt training, thinking critically about all the different theories. Now I think his thinking was deeply flawed on several things but he got me thinking at least.

[PJim]

I seem to remember his last evolution in training theory where you only held a weight for like 15 seconds. Say a leg extension, you held the weight at the contracted position to failure and that was it. I'm not sure but I think you then rested for 2 or 3 weeks until you did the same thing again. Do you remember this? It was in his last articles for "all natural" MD as I recall.

Mentzer was a huge influence on me wrt training, thinking critically about all the different theories. Now I think his thinking was deeply flawed on several things but he got me thinking at least.

I reckon if you are performing static holds followed by super slow negatives, in terms of time under tension and units of work, you can count it as a set simply due to the intensity and duration of the exercise.

I must say though I never do 1 rep maxes, simply because in my experience the closer you get to going all out on a single rep the more you increase the risk of injury. I will do the occasional set of 3-4 reps in rest pause fashion with super slow negs.

[PJim]

"Created nothing new or useful"? True, most of his ideas originated from Arthur Jones but to say he added nothing new or useful is beyond ludicrous. I wonder how old you were or if you were even born during Mentzer's hey day. Back then no one was talking about recovery ability and distinguishing between localized and systemic recovery. It was all more, more, more. "Specialization" routines to "bring up weak body parts" always entire more frequency, more duration. The concept of intensity was rarely if ever brought up. There was no pre exhaust concepts, emphasis and the importance of eccentric contraction -- Mentzer talked about rest pause training when Danta and sons were still in diapers.

Six day a week training, body part 2-3 times a week was the rule before Mentzer arrived on the scene. Even relating the correlation between size and strength and training for progression took a far, far back seat to getting "the pump" and volume. Set after set after set. To be so breathtakingly ignorant and claim that HIT has long since been laughed out of existence. What planet are you living on? Various forms of high intensity training is being practiced by millions throughout the world. Ever heard of Dorian Yates? And never did Mentzer talk or promote "one rep bull shit." In fact, Jones specifically cautioned against such practice unless you were a power lifter. He was adamant in the difference between demonstrating strength and developing it. He believed that one rep training did nothing to stimulate size and strength.

And again your ignorance is beyond staggering. Mentzer was very successful selling and promoting his theories and travelled around the world doing so. He's been to places, experienced other cultures, met people throughout the world at a level that you will never even remotely come close to. And it was due solely to his huge fan base that still exist to this day.

Yes, he was a flawed man like all of us and it was his undoing but his impact in bbing will be long remember and discussed just like we are doing now. Just like people around the world are doing now.

Many disagree with Mentzer and vehemently dispute his claims and beliefs, but it's rare to see someone like you take such a personal offense to the point of losing all sense of reason and rationality making accusations and claims that are demonstrably false. It seems Mentzer had a lot more influence on your psyche than you are willing to admit or are even aware of. You act like he personally hurt your feelings and it seems to have scared you for life.

Mike has done more for training philosophy than the vast majority that's for sure.

[dseiler]

"Created nothing new or useful"? True, most of his ideas originated from Arthur Jones but to say he added nothing new or useful is beyond ludicrous. I wonder how old you were or if you were even born during Mentzer's hey day. Back then no one was talking about recovery ability and distinguishing between localized and systemic recovery. It was all more, more, more. "Specialization" routines to "bring up weak body parts" always entire more frequency, more duration. The concept of intensity was rarely if ever brought up. There was no pre exhaust concepts, emphasis and the importance of eccentric contraction -- Mentzer talked about rest pause training when Danta and sons were still in diapers.

Six day a week training, body part 2-3 times a week was the rule before Mentzer arrived on the scene. Even relating the correlation between size and strength and training for progression took a far, far back seat to getting "the pump" and volume. Set after set after set. To be so breathtakingly ignorant and claim that HIT has long since been laughed out of existence. What planet are you living on? Various forms of high intensity training is being practiced by millions throughout the world. Ever heard of Dorian Yates? And never did Mentzer talk or promote "one rep bull shit." In fact, Jones specifically cautioned against such practice unless you were a power lifter. He was adamant in the difference between demonstrating strength and developing it. He believed that one rep training did nothing to stimulate size and strength.

And again your ignorance is beyond staggering. Mentzer was very successful selling and promoting his theories and travelled around the world doing so. He's been to places, experienced other cultures, met people throughout the world at a level that you will never even remotely come close to. And it was due solely to his huge fan base that still exist to this day.

Yes, he was a flawed man like all of us and it was his undoing but his impact in bbing will be long remember and discussed just like we are doing now. Just like people around the world are doing now.

Many disagree with Mentzer and vehemently dispute his claims and beliefs, but it's rare to see someone like you take such a personal offense to the point of losing all sense of reason and rationality making accusations and claims that are demonstrably false. It seems Mentzer had a lot more influence on your psyche than you are willing to admit or are even aware of. You act like he personally hurt your feelings and it seems to have scared you for life.

Excellent stuff.

[bigbychoices]

mike did get people thinking about recovery and stuff. however mike didnt train the way he preached. he did fewer sets than most but he still did the basic pyrimad system. even dorian yates did too.  on paper arthur jones ideas sound solid. and to a point they are/were. mike tried to "tweak" them a bit. pre exhaustion , rest pause etc are all solid training advice BUT only on occasion. the guys in the mags didnt always train 6 days 2 times a day 2 hours each hetc. they took days off when they were exhausted. and they only trained that way prior to a big show. most of the time it was 3 or 4 days a week heavy weights low reps etc. even on drugs they knew they couldnt beat their bodies for months. the mags always wanted you to believe the guys were "super" human or something. mike kinda went against what the mags was trying to push . he wasnt so much "smart" as he was honest. mike didnt believe in protein supplements and always said so. in fact his diet was low protein and higher carbs when getting ready for a show. ( but he was using amphetimines then too) i didnt see mike much after in his later years as i had moved away and visted calif seldom. bodybuilding isnt hard to figure out. lift as much as you want listen to your body eat food sleep take drugs repeat. to keep from getting bored mix up your routines and never stay on one for months and months unless you are growing.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Young Ray

[NarcissisticDeity]

 

[OLKE_TEXAS]

[/quote
Dirty trainers of peas

[NarcissisticDeity]

 

[pellius]

I seem to remember his last evolution in training theory where you only held a weight for like 15 seconds. Say a leg extension, you held the weight at the contracted position to failure and that was it. I'm not sure but I think you then rested for 2 or 3 weeks until you did the same thing again. Do you remember this? It was in his last articles for "all natural" MD as I recall.

Mentzer was a huge influence on me wrt training, thinking critically about all the different theories. Now I think his thinking was deeply flawed on several things but he got me thinking at least.

Yes, he did consider and experiment with static holds. But that's a far cry from ORM max as a training tool.

We can speculate Mentzer's latest training evolution by simply watching the video tape series he was working on just before he died. The training protocol he put Markus Reinhardt through was pretty much what I remember him outlining in his articles and "Heavy Duty" training courses he wrote during the seventies. Pre exhaust, force reps, controlled negatives, one set per exercise (not per muscle group), a lot of grunting and grimacing....

[pellius]

 I also want to echo some of the comments others have made regarding Mentzer's influence on them.
Perhaps the main influence. He made you think. He made you reconsider the Weider dogma of the day. To not just blindly follow the routines outlines in the muscle rags of the time. I remember as a teen literally devoting my life hitting the weights six days a week always worn out, always skinny, always full of hope. Arthur Jones and Mentzer were like a breath of fresh air.

[NarcissisticDeity]

 

[Simple Simon]

I remember reading an article by Mentzer regarding calorific intake and building muscle.
It was something along the lines of eating around 20 cals a day over maintenance was  the difference between gaining 10lbs of muscle in a year and not gaining it.

He referred to is as the difference of a bite of an apple.

His theory was it was the training that built the muscle not calorific increase

[dj181]

I remember reading an article by Mentzer regarding calorific intake and building muscle.
It was something along the lines of eating around 20 cals a day over maintenance was  the difference between gaining 10lbs of muscle in a year and not gaining it.

He referred to is as the difference of a bite of an apple.

His theory was it was the training that built the muscle not calorific increase

true dat!

and he also said that strength increases precede size increases and that he would gain in strength for weeks with no size increase and then.... BOOM! he would add a few pounds of muscle in a day or two

AJ also said that muscle growth occurs very rapidly,  whenever it occurs

[PJim]

To me, more than anything, if people actually read/listen to Mike's words and speak to those who knew him (like Joanne Sharkey who runs his Website) you'll realise he was a really kind spirit. My training partner and I have had lengthy chats with Samir about him too and he echoed this and said he was one of the nicest, most helpful guys in the business. He honestly couldn't praise his character enough.

Mike wasn't squeaky clean though and had his fair share of problems, but I think that makes him more likeable, not less, contrary to what some of you say. He was human after all.

[bigbychoices]

mike was wrong about getting stronger before the muscle got bigger. he didnt take into account that you learn to do the exercise better therefore resulting in a strength increase. for example. if someone never ever lifted they would be awkward in lifts so as they got used to the exercise they could do more reps and add weight  thats NOT  strength increase thats just learning the exercise. he also never considered the power of the mind. somedays you dont feel like lifting and your not into your workout other days your excited and lift more. did you get stronger? no.  maybe your tired  from not enough rest and then the next time your refreshed and get more reps. did you get stronger? no.  or maybe your trying to lift and cant do it and suddenly a hot chick walks in and now you can lift the weight for more reps. did you get stronger? no.  mike was smart about not needing longer workouts and more days but again he didnt do what he preached either. he also forgot to mention that most guys didnt follow the 6 days 2 hours a diy routine all the time. only pre contest.

[dj181]

mike was wrong about getting stronger before the muscle got bigger. he didnt take into account that you learn to do the exercise better therefore resulting in a strength increase. for example. if someone never ever lifted they would be awkward in lifts so as they got used to the exercise they could do more reps and add weight  thats NOT  strength increase thats just learning the exercise. he also never considered the power of the mind. somedays you dont feel like lifting and your not into your workout other days your excited and lift more. did you get stronger? no.  maybe your tired  from not enough rest and then the next time your refreshed and get more reps. did you get stronger? no.  or maybe your trying to lift and cant do it and suddenly a hot chick walks in and now you can lift the weight for more reps. did you get stronger? no.  mike was smart about not needing longer workouts and more days but again he didnt do what he preached either. he also forgot to mention that most guys didnt follow the 6 days 2 hours a diy routine all the time. only pre contest.

that's true what you write bout newbie strength gains

it also happens when you do a new exercise of if you return to an old one that you hhaven't done in awhile (and this is true for.advanced lifters)

but..... This strength before size was mike's own personal experience and it happened when he was at a very advanced stage ie.circa 78-79 and it happened on exercises he had already been doing for a long time

[Taffin]

I worked out with mike and ray in rehab.
Ended up training them for a couple of years. Good times.

You must have some good stories...

Not really. OLKE told me they were arrogant and dicks to everyone, especially family

[pellius]

One thing that made an impression on me is that after Don Ross introduced me to Mike at Gold's during the late 1980s was that he always greeted me first when he saw me and always called me by my name. Because he was working we never got into any long discussions but he was always exceedingly polite and good humored.

Another thing that made an impression was his voice. It didn't match as how I would imagine. It was kind of squeaky and nerdy.

[SGT BARNES]

"Created nothing new or useful"? True, most of his ideas originated from Arthur Jones but to say he added nothing new or useful is beyond ludicrous. I wonder how old you were or if you were even born during Mentzer's hey day. Back then no one was talking about recovery ability and distinguishing between localized and systemic recovery. It was all more, more, more. "Specialization" routines to "bring up weak body parts" always entire more frequency, more duration. The concept of intensity was rarely if ever brought up. There was no pre exhaust concepts, emphasis and the importance of eccentric contraction -- Mentzer talked about rest pause training when Danta and sons were still in diapers.

Six day a week training, body part 2-3 times a week was the rule before Mentzer arrived on the scene. Even relating the correlation between size and strength and training for progression took a far, far back seat to getting "the pump" and volume. Set after set after set. To be so breathtakingly ignorant and claim that HIT has long since been laughed out of existence. What planet are you living on? Various forms of high intensity training is being practiced by millions throughout the world. Ever heard of Dorian Yates? And never did Mentzer talk or promote "one rep bull shit." In fact, Jones specifically cautioned against such practice unless you were a power lifter. He was adamant in the difference between demonstrating strength and developing it. He believed that one rep training did nothing to stimulate size and strength.

And again your ignorance is beyond staggering. Mentzer was very successful selling and promoting his theories and travelled around the world doing so. He's been to places, experienced other cultures, met people throughout the world at a level that you will never even remotely come close to. And it was due solely to his huge fan base that still exist to this day.

Yes, he was a flawed man like all of us and it was his undoing but his impact in bbing will be long remember and discussed just like we are doing now. Just like people around the world are doing now.

Many disagree with Mentzer and vehemently dispute his claims and beliefs, but it's rare to see someone like you take such a personal offense to the point of losing all sense of reason and rationality making accusations and claims that are demonstrably false. It seems Mentzer had a lot more influence on your psyche than you are willing to admit or are even aware of. You act like he personally hurt your feelings and it seems to have scared you for life.

LoL didnt read your essay twinkie. Full of bullshit.

Again. He did nothing and died a junkie. Not a loss.

PS - couldnt even beat Zane. LoL

[The Scott]

Given that the vast majority of today's bodybuilders are total lazy retards, it would take only a room temperature IQ to be considered a genius among them.

But Mike Mentzer was above average even among the average outside  bodybuilding. I think Mike was correct in his line of thinking.   It is true that drugs are the thing that separates us from the schmoebait, but either with or with out them, Mentzers philosophy of training will get you there and help to keep you there.

And you will have time for a real life instead of the usual imitation of one.

[oldtimer1]

"Created nothing new or useful"? True, most of his ideas originated from Arthur Jones but to say he added nothing new or useful is beyond ludicrous. I wonder how old you were or if you were even born during Mentzer's hey day. Back then no one was talking about recovery ability and distinguishing between localized and systemic recovery. It was all more, more, more. "Specialization" routines to "bring up weak body parts" always entire more frequency, more duration. The concept of intensity was rarely if ever brought up. There was no pre exhaust concepts, emphasis and the importance of eccentric contraction -- Mentzer talked about rest pause training when Danta and sons were still in diapers.

Six day a week training, body part 2-3 times a week was the rule before Mentzer arrived on the scene. Even relating the correlation between size and strength and training for progression took a far, far back seat to getting "the pump" and volume. Set after set after set. To be so breathtakingly ignorant and claim that HIT has long since been laughed out of existence. What planet are you living on? Various forms of high intensity training is being practiced by millions throughout the world. Ever heard of Dorian Yates? And never did Mentzer talk or promote "one rep bull shit." In fact, Jones specifically cautioned against such practice unless you were a power lifter. He was adamant in the difference between demonstrating strength and developing it. He believed that one rep training did nothing to stimulate size and strength.

And again your ignorance is beyond staggering. Mentzer was very successful selling and promoting his theories and travelled around the world doing so. He's been to places, experienced other cultures, met people throughout the world at a level that you will never even remotely come close to. And it was due solely to his huge fan base that still exist to this day.

Yes, he was a flawed man like all of us and it was his undoing but his impact in bbing will be long remember and discussed just like we are doing now. Just like people around the world are doing now.

Many disagree with Mentzer and vehemently dispute his claims and beliefs, but it's rare to see someone like you take such a personal offense to the point of losing all sense of reason and rationality making accusations and claims that are demonstrably false. It seems Mentzer had a lot more influence on your psyche than you are willing to admit or are even aware of. You act like he personally hurt your feelings and it seems to have scared you for life.

An intelligent, rational, and logical post.

[The Scott]

An intelligent, rational, and logical post.

You sir, are correct.