Author Topic: Mike Mentzer - Discussion  (Read 418594 times)

NotMrAverage

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #900 on: September 13, 2017, 03:34:23 AM »
Well if you meet some blacks they are often extremlly well built from start and look like they can be awesome bbs. But most bodybuilders were not this way. There is something else. That extreme drive from a person is not something you are born with. It commes from within. If you have that + genetics + drugs we have a champ. But we can discuss this all day i think and i dont want the thread to get off topic.
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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #901 on: September 13, 2017, 05:52:37 AM »
I did (and still do) the whole body in one workout. Pretty basic routine- about 10-12 exercises, one or two warmups, 1 strict heavy set of 8-12 reps or so, till positive failure, periodically altering the movements when I'm getting stale. I found that anything beyond that didn't work; I would just get tired and have joint pains. This works perfectly.

My current routine:

Over head press/pulldowns/incline bench/row/decline bench/incline row/leg press/leg curl/calf raise/curl/triceps pressdown.

I did the single body part routine 1x a week, such as chest day 1, back day 2, legs day 3 but I found I ended up easily over training because I kept  adding extra movements in. Plus I travel a bit on business so I wanted to consolidate gym time.

I'm 5'9" 200 pounds when living the easy life :). When I get super lean (I bicycle a lot), I am about 180 with abs, veins. On the Mentzer routine I was stuck at about 160 forever. I was very much an ectomorph. I then read an article about Dorian doing one day a week heavy and tried it. Boom- I grew so quickly I was amazed. It eventually slowed when I reached the mid 180's  and lean but that is quite a dramatic gain in about 2 years. Now I just maintain my strength.

Leans toward the adage that all the growth happens outside the gym. Recovery is just as important as the lifting itself, if not more so.

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #902 on: September 13, 2017, 06:41:06 AM »
It's a person's response to training and supplements that is a key component to the genetically gifted.
Two people can do the exact same thing but one is going to respond better. Same with talent. It's not like Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan trained harder than their competition. They just had the God given talent that most don't have.

Of course hard work and discipline is required when you are talking about the best of the best but as much as people don't like to hear it, champions are BORN not made, which is the opposite of what we are taught.

Talent is table salt. It's everywhere. Hard work is what turns talent into success.

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #903 on: September 13, 2017, 06:57:35 AM »
curious, did your strength increase on that routine?

If yes, give examples of the increases for example curl went up from 80x6 to 115x9

On the one day a week routine? Absolutely. And it seems to be permanent, if there is such a thing with training.

An example- with the early Mentzer training (2-3x a week)  I increased my strength on dumbbell rows from a weak  50 pounds to 85 pounds for reps (I generally stick to the 8-12 range or so). Then I was stuck. I'd take a week or two off and then come back again but seemed to be stuck in the 80's.  When I switched to one day a week I worked up to 120's for the same rep range, with good form. This took about a year but I never felt dead like I did with 2 or 3x a week training. I actually went above 120 at times but started to reach the point where I felt like i was chasing the numbers and form started getting sloppy.

Same thing happened with dead lifts, although I only did those for triples. I went from 295  to 405 with one day a week training. I could have gone higher over time but I really don't like dead lifting- it feels like I'm ripping something, lol. The increase in dead lift strength came quickly - well under 6 months. I think something like dead lifting could be done every two weeks and you'd still get stronger.

All training reaches plateaus and you have to change things up. But with this routine I was able to reach a point where I simply felt strong enough. I really don't want to get bigger than 200 at my height, and feel the best around 185. So you could say mission accomplished. I actually got up to 215 (obviously there was extra fat there) when I was at my very strongest but it just didn't feel right. I participate in a number of endurance sports (cycling, nordic skiing, running) and there is a limit to how much weight you can carry and still feel good.

All said and done, my weight training adventure saw my body weight go from 155 to 185, lean, in a span of 2-3 years - after I switched to one day a week training.

I actually was weighed hydrostatically when I was 155 as part of a study at a local university and they said I was 10% body fat. At that level you could see veins everywhere, so I have no idea how people get to numbers like 5%. That's unreal.  But regardless, I  gained  about 30 pounds of muscle, and from what I have read, that's pretty good for natural lifters.

I think Mike Mentzer was definitely correct in his training ideas, but the natural  rate of recovery does vary in individuals quite a bit. This has been proven in countless research studies. I take a week to recover and super-compensate from hard weight training. Others may take only 3 days. A drug user might be able to recover in 24 hours. That is the biggest factor in exercise- how quickly your body rebuilds.


Hypertrophy

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #904 on: September 13, 2017, 07:04:02 AM »
Leans toward the adage that all the growth happens outside the gym. Recovery is just as important as the lifting itself, if not more so.

Totally agree! Like Dorian and Lee Haney have said, you grow outside the gym.

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #905 on: September 13, 2017, 07:24:24 AM »
On the one day a week routine? Absolutely. And it seems to be permanent, if there is such a thing with training.

An example- with the early Mentzer training (2-3x a week)  I increased my strength on dumbbell rows from a weak  50 pounds to 85 pounds for reps (I generally stick to the 8-12 range or so). Then I was stuck. I'd take a week or two off and then come back again but seemed to be stuck in the 80's.  When I switched to one day a week I worked up to 120's for the same rep range, with good form. This took about a year but I never felt dead like I did with 2 or 3x a week training. I actually went above 120 at times but started to reach the point where I felt like i was chasing the numbers and form started getting sloppy.

Same thing happened with dead lifts, although I only did those for triples. I went from 295  to 405 with one day a week training. I could have gone higher over time but I really don't like dead lifting- it feels like I'm ripping something, lol. The increase in dead lift strength came quickly - well under 6 months. I think something like dead lifting could be done every two weeks and you'd still get stronger.

All training reaches plateaus and you have to change things up. But with this routine I was able to reach a point where I simply felt strong enough. I really don't want to get bigger than 200 at my height, and feel the best around 185. So you could say mission accomplished. I actually got up to 215 (obviously there was extra fat there) when I was at my very strongest but it just didn't feel right. I participate in a number of endurance sports (cycling, nordic skiing, running) and there is a limit to how much weight you can carry and still feel good.

All said and done, my weight training adventure saw my body weight go from 155 to 185, lean, in a span of 2-3 years - after I switched to one day a week training.

I actually was weighed hydrostatically when I was 155 as part of a study at a local university and they said I was 10% body fat. At that level you could see veins everywhere, so I have no idea how people get to numbers like 5%. That's unreal.  But regardless, I  gained  about 30 pounds of muscle, and from what I have read, that's pretty good for natural lifters.

I think Mike Mentzer was definitely correct in his training ideas, but the natural  rate of recovery does vary in individuals quite a bit. This has been proven in countless research studies. I take a week to recover and super-compensate from hard weight training. Others may take only 3 days. A drug user might be able to recover in 24 hours. That is the biggest factor in exercise- how quickly your body rebuilds.



thanks for the report bro

much appreciated

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #906 on: September 13, 2017, 04:06:06 PM »
 :)

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #907 on: September 13, 2017, 04:45:17 PM »
Was MM a little better in 79 vs. 80 ?

Everything was better in '79 than in '80 for him.

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #908 on: September 14, 2017, 01:10:48 AM »
Talent is table salt. It's everywhere. Hard work is what turns talent into success.

So Phil is better and beats everyone else on the O stage because he works harder than the rest? Platz lost to Franco because he didn't work hard enough. BJ Penn won the Mundials (World Championship) training less than five years beating those who grew up training BJJ with the founders. And this was in the most competitive weight division stacked with the best in the world. Not many achieve a black belt in BJJ in less than five years let alone compete at a world class level and win. Tiger Woods at 19 beat out those who were golfing on a top level while he was just a baby. LeBorn James was still a teenager when he was drafted into the pros out performing an already gifted group of athletes that were playing b-ball before he was even born. James hadn't been alive long enough to "train harder" than his competition. And it wasn't his "hard training" alone that made him so much better than other talented athletes. He was gifted. Something you are born with.

Talent is rare. Very rare. You're living proof of that.

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #909 on: September 14, 2017, 06:03:24 AM »
So Phil is better and beats everyone else on the O stage because he works harder than the rest? Platz lost to Franco because he didn't work hard enough. BJ Penn won the Mundials (World Championship) training less than five years beating those who grew up training BJJ with the founders. And this was in the most competitive weight division stacked with the best in the world. Not many achieve a black belt in BJJ in less than five years let alone compete at a world class level and win. Tiger Woods at 19 beat out those who were golfing on a top level while he was just a baby. LeBorn James was still a teenager when he was drafted into the pros out performing an already gifted group of athletes that were playing b-ball before he was even born. James hadn't been alive long enough to "train harder" than his competition. And it wasn't his "hard training" alone that made him so much better than other talented athletes. He was gifted. Something you are born with.

Talent is rare. Very rare. You're living proof of that.

So take all these guys you just mentioned and remove the practice element. Hours in the gym, the court, the mat, whatever. Take away the constant study and these guys don't get to that elite level. These guys may  have come out of the womb with the natural ability but without honing it and crafting it they would be just another guy at the Triple AAA level.

Talent isn't rare. The combination of work ethic, drive and talent is very rare.

I am living proof of what? You can judge a person based on some words on a forum?

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #910 on: September 14, 2017, 06:10:21 AM »
So take all these guys you just mentioned and remove the practice element. Hours in the gym, the court, the mat, whatever. Take away the constant study and these guys don't get to that elite level. These guys didn't come out of the womb with the ability. It was honed and crafted.

Talent isn't rare. The combination of work ethic, drive and talent is very rare.

I am living proof of what? You can judge a person based on some words on a forum?


theres a fuckload of factors involved in real sports

drive, skill, natural talent, courage, willingness to practice endlessly, ect

dseiler

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #911 on: September 14, 2017, 06:15:41 AM »
theres a fuckload of factors involved in real sports

drive, skill, natural talent, courage, willingness to practice endlessly, ect

Exactly. It's not just innate abilities.

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #912 on: September 14, 2017, 07:47:04 AM »
Is that George Snyders daughter with Mentzer in that picture?

Yes, it is.

oldtimer1

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #913 on: September 14, 2017, 09:23:42 AM »
Yes, it is.

Always thought it was weird how they had his daughter "draped" all over these bodybuilders for a picture when she was in her early teens.

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #914 on: September 14, 2017, 11:07:53 AM »
Always thought it was weird how they had his daughter "draped" all over these bodybuilders for a picture when she was in her early teens.

From what I recall, Mentzer said her scent was the best Schmoe repellent around (it was like garlic to a vampire).  The guys all paid to have her hug them and it worked out great for her as she was able to put herself through college later on with the money she saved up.

 ;D

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #915 on: September 15, 2017, 12:57:01 AM »
So take all these guys you just mentioned and remove the practice element. Hours in the gym, the court, the mat, whatever. Take away the constant study and these guys don't get to that elite level. These guys may  have come out of the womb with the natural ability but without honing it and crafting it they would be just another guy at the Triple AAA level.

Talent isn't rare. The combination of work ethic, drive and talent is very rare.

I am living proof of what? You can judge a person based on some words on a forum?


Millions upon millions work hard. Very few make it to the top of the top. Did Jon "Bones" Jones train harder than Cormier? Jones was destroying the top of the top at a very young age. Why?

Talent. Just like Jordan, Ali, Phelps, Bolt, Armstrong, Coleman and others who were head and tails above the rest. Many very talented and discipline people have tried to beat them but they were special -- even among the chosen few. It's not that they trained harder or took some magic potion. They all do at that level. They had what Quentin Tarantino once described as that certain "something, something."

It may be a bit difficult when it comes to skills but in bbing it's blatantly obvious. Some people train like animals and juice for years and never really become freaks. Others start growing muscles on day one.
Many train just as hard and juice just as much as Coleman, but nobody got to Coleman's level.

I remember JJ Marsh telling me that when he first started weight training he couldn't believe how quickly it changed him. He said it was like time lapse photography. He would get up in the morning and look in the mirror and seemed to grow overnight. Within six months he was already more advanced than other guys in the gym who were training and juicing for over a decade. His response was extraordinary and he did nothing special. But though he competed at a world class level he still didn't have the ultimate gift that put him at the very top. And he devoted his life to bbing and there is nothing he wouldn't have done to make it to the top.

And, yes, I can make some informed judgements about people based on their posts on this board. In your case, either you have some rare talent and are just lazy, a hard worker but no talent, or neither. If you were part of the rarified elite you wouldn't have time for this board. No one knows who you are because you are just like the rest of us. Nothing special. Just ordinary folk doing the best (except shizzo and Josh) with what they have and what they were born with. But I would love it if you could prove me wrong.

Nasser once commented that it is a uniquely American ideal that you can be anything you want if you just want it bad enough. But it was just utter nonsense. I mean there can only be one Mr. O a year, one president every four years, one gold medal... mathematically it was simply impossible for everyone "who really wants it" no matter how bad and how much they sacrifice, for everyone to be number one.

It only goes to those who were born with that "something, something".

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #916 on: September 19, 2017, 12:04:10 AM »
On the one day a week routine? Absolutely. And it seems to be permanent, if there is such a thing with training.

An example- with the early Mentzer training (2-3x a week)  I increased my strength on dumbbell rows from a weak  50 pounds to 85 pounds for reps (I generally stick to the 8-12 range or so). Then I was stuck. I'd take a week or two off and then come back again but seemed to be stuck in the 80's.  When I switched to one day a week I worked up to 120's for the same rep range, with good form. This took about a year but I never felt dead like I did with 2 or 3x a week training. I actually went above 120 at times but started to reach the point where I felt like i was chasing the numbers and form started getting sloppy.

Same thing happened with dead lifts, although I only did those for triples. I went from 295  to 405 with one day a week training. I could have gone higher over time but I really don't like dead lifting- it feels like I'm ripping something, lol. The increase in dead lift strength came quickly - well under 6 months. I think something like dead lifting could be done every two weeks and you'd still get stronger.

All training reaches plateaus and you have to change things up. But with this routine I was able to reach a point where I simply felt strong enough. I really don't want to get bigger than 200 at my height, and feel the best around 185. So you could say mission accomplished. I actually got up to 215 (obviously there was extra fat there) when I was at my very strongest but it just didn't feel right. I participate in a number of endurance sports (cycling, nordic skiing, running) and there is a limit to how much weight you can carry and still feel good.

All said and done, my weight training adventure saw my body weight go from 155 to 185, lean, in a span of 2-3 years - after I switched to one day a week training.

I actually was weighed hydrostatically when I was 155 as part of a study at a local university and they said I was 10% body fat. At that level you could see veins everywhere, so I have no idea how people get to numbers like 5%. That's unreal.  But regardless, I  gained  about 30 pounds of muscle, and from what I have read, that's pretty good for natural lifters.

I think Mike Mentzer was definitely correct in his training ideas, but the natural  rate of recovery does vary in individuals quite a bit. This has been proven in countless research studies. I take a week to recover and super-compensate from hard weight training. Others may take only 3 days. A drug user might be able to recover in 24 hours. That is the biggest factor in exercise- how quickly your body rebuilds.


i used to work at a gym when I was a student and I did the Sunday shift. There was a guy who used to come in every single Sunday and do a very thorough full body workout (not mentzer style but heavy weights for lots of sets). It took him 2-2.5 hours and he was spent at the end of it. As the months progressed he seemed to be the only one there who was growing so I asked him about his routine. It turned out that Sunday workout was his only workout of the week since he was self employed with 3 little kids. Once a week training can work for sure.

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #917 on: September 19, 2017, 12:44:12 AM »

DooM_

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #918 on: September 19, 2017, 09:14:55 AM »
best thread on getbig , quality posts and pics , keep up the great work guys

dj181

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #919 on: September 19, 2017, 09:16:44 AM »
some of the best tris ever  8)

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #920 on: September 20, 2017, 01:43:41 PM »
 :)

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #921 on: September 20, 2017, 02:56:06 PM »
 :)

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #922 on: September 20, 2017, 03:02:00 PM »
81?

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #923 on: September 20, 2017, 03:12:34 PM »

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Re: Mike Mentzer - Discussion
« Reply #924 on: September 20, 2017, 06:04:59 PM »
So take all these guys you just mentioned and remove the practice element. Hours in the gym, the court, the mat, whatever. Take away the constant study and these guys don't get to that elite level. These guys may  have come out of the womb with the natural ability but without honing it and crafting it they would be just another guy at the Triple AAA level.

Talent isn't rare. The combination of work ethic, drive and talent is very rare.

I am living proof of what? You can judge a person based on some words on a forum?


It's understood that you have to put in the work. But it's equally vital that you have the genetics. Dorian Yates said himself that if he wasn't cut out for bodybuilding, he wouldn't have pursued it. It's the fact he noticed he he was improving much mire than his peers.