Author Topic: PDI and IFBB athletes switching contests?  (Read 21428 times)

Al-Gebra

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2006, 10:38:16 PM »

Another possibility here could be that the IFBB and the PDI would mutually co-exist and hold the "Inter-Steller Championships" between IFBB and PDI champions each year at the Mandalay
Bay.



seems like all industries tend towards consolidation if unregulated . . . only one NBA, NFL, MLB . . . they don't need to acknowledge arena football and the like.

stuntmovie

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2006, 10:41:15 PM »
This is moving too fast to comment in logical order, but if the situation ever arose where Lee wanted to re-enter the IFBB; I don't think it would be disallowed, but I would sure be surprised if the judges or the organization  were thoroughly impartial to anyone who "jumped ship" while it was running aground or appeared to be doing so.

(Notice I did not say, "sinking" because I don't think that is the actual case here.)


240 is Back

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2006, 10:43:02 PM »
The IFBB isn't sinking.

However, Wayne DeMilia did see there was a growing market of disenfranchised fans who were unhappy with the guts, the fix being in, etc. All those fans from the early 90s were just in hibernation, waiting.

Wayne's giving them a reason so come back.

Disgusted

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2006, 10:43:41 PM »
This is moving too fast to comment in logical order, but if the situation ever arose where Lee wanted to re-enter the IFBB; I don't think it would be disallowed, but I would sure be surprised if the judges or the organization  were thoroughly impartial to anyone who "jumped ship" while it was running aground or appeared to be doing so.

(Notice I did not say, "sinking" because I don't think that is the actual case here.)



IMO he would be allowed back in after paying a fine and then placed a few places too low for a while. Hasn't this been done before?  ;D

stuntmovie

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2006, 10:44:30 PM »
Disgusted - Good "winning the lottery" statement as short as it was, BUT ....... somebody always wins it.

Disgusted

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2006, 10:47:21 PM »
Disgusted - Good "winning the lottery" statement as short as it was, BUT ....... somebody always wins it.

You got a point bro.  ;D

stuntmovie

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2006, 10:55:27 PM »
Any lawyers in this group who can enlighten us on this subject?

Does any organization have the right to control the actions of its members if they are not under a contractual arrangement?

If not,why not?

If so,why so?


TK

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2006, 10:56:16 PM »
On 21 January 1983, in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Tennessee, a judgment order was entered that prohibited a physique federation, from penalizing, punishing, or “interfering in any way” with any member who participates in another federation's physique contest. Such participation includes entry into, promotion of such a contest, or officiating at a contest. In addition, that federal court order stated that the federation may not “condone, ratify or facilitate, or permit such actions by any member or affiliate of the federation . . .” It also required the federation to “take all steps reasonably necessary to remedy any” such prohibited conduct. The right of all athletes to participate in competition without fear of interference from other organizations has thus been reaffirmed in federal court.

LuciusFox

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2006, 10:57:53 PM »
On 21 January 1983, in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Tennessee, a judgment order was entered that prohibited a physique federation, from penalizing, punishing, or “interfering in any way” with any member who participates in another federation's physique contest. Such participation includes entry into, promotion of such a contest, or officiating at a contest. In addition, that federal court order stated that the federation may not “condone, ratify or facilitate, or permit such actions by any member or affiliate of the federation . . .” It also required the federation to “take all steps reasonably necessary to remedy any” such prohibited conduct. The right of all athletes to participate in competition without fear of interference from other organizations has thus been reaffirmed in federal court.


 Was this for amatuers only?

kmhphoto

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2006, 11:02:33 PM »


 the fix being in, etc.

Is Wayne saying that these alleged "fixes" have only been happening since he left the IFBB or was he part of them while he was in charge?

stuntmovie

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2006, 11:09:36 PM »
TK, thank you! That is exactly the case I was thinking of in an earlier post. I did receive such a letter back then informing me of that court decision.

BUT......

I seem to recall that that court decision pertained to amateur events only and had no bearing on the IFBB Pros whatsoever.

That could have been due to the fact that the court assumed that Professional Bodybuilders were working within the consentual constraints of a legal contract, which is definitely NOT the case in most situations today (nor even back then).

More likely - the IFBB subject was not even brought up in the subject court.

And I don't recall the IFBB ever being legally challanged in that regards but I could be wrong.

Thanks for your clarifying input but I still feel that it applied to amateur organizations only.

Ron

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2006, 11:12:38 PM »
First of all, the IFBB isn't going anywhere. The situation is that the PDI has a number of announcements and people are talking about it, giving the illusion that the PDI is a powerful force against the IFBB. That is not the case. The PDI is a few press releases, and some athletes that, until we actually see a contest and them actually competing in it, is just a bunch of words. To that extent, I wish the PDI the best in trying to become an alternate for the IFBB.  I don't think Wayne nor others want the fact to use the PDI to attack the IFBB. That isn't fair.

For many of us, the IFBB represents a way of generating income and supporting bodybuilding. The shows, whether the Arnold, the Olympia, and others bring fans, vendors, gym owners, trainers, store owners and much more into an area to socialize and build up. Many companies owe and respect what the IFBB has brought to us all.

We can complain about it, it is a free speech to do so, but we must acknowledge that it too has brought us some of the best contests under that organization. Still, we can debate that in another thread.

Now, in terms of the previous statement, I beleive that it applies only to 'amatuer' organizations that do not give any money to their athlete.  If an athlete from the NPC wants to compete in another Amatuer contest like the PDI qualifiers, I beleive they can without any problems based on that ruling above. However, that is not for me to decide, ask someone who really knows the rules.

Now, pros are an entirely different manner. Once you get money from an organization, and you agree to be a part of that organization, by signing your IFBB pro card, you agree to a number of rules and distinctions. Albiet, they have to be fair, and not hurt your chances of making a living. If you, as a pro, decide to compete in the PDI, then you are not following the IFBB rules, and you can be suspended and not be allowed in any IFBB event. And that is for. You have made your choice to compete in the IFBB Pro League, or the PDI Pro Division.

Now if an athlete decides to go to an event that is by the PDI, there should be no problems, provided that he represents the IFBB, and makes no distinction that he is there to represent the PDI. The same way that an Arena Football player can go an check out an NFL football game. In fact, an IFBB athlete should go to the PDI and wear an IFBB shirt.

Obviously, this is the single most talked about topic this week, because of the press releases out there, and the curiousity of this. Even the Pro Bodybuilding Radio show talked about it.  

As for Bob Chick, I will say it again, he does have a good opinion and has fine points regarding the PDI, and has always proven to be one who cares about bodybuilding.

Disgusted

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2006, 11:13:06 PM »
Actaully I don't recall the IFBB ever being challenged with legal action except this one time (at band camp) and it had to do with diuretic testing. They backed down pretty quick from what I hear.  ;D

Disgusted

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2006, 11:14:44 PM »
The PDI is a few press releases, and some athletes that, until we actually see a contest and them actually competing in it, is just a bunch of words.

You're starting to sound like someone we all know.  ;)

Ron

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2006, 11:18:53 PM »

Disgusted,

You are right. Even you can acknowledge that statement.  When there is more, then there is more. When I see someone get a PDI Pro card, when I see a contest being done - then there is news to cover.  Not someone saying I choose to get a PDI Pro Card. So me a list - an official list. Then it is news.

Once again, I am not saying the PDI is not going to have it's contests, or that the athletes will be pros there, I am just saying that lets see when things actually come to frutation. I wish the PDI the best. But in order for it to be news - there has to be an official web site, official promoters, official sponsors, official pro list, ec.


LuciusFox

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2006, 11:19:55 PM »
Disgusted,

You are right. Even you can acknowledge that statement.  When there is more, then there is more. When I see someone get a PDI Pro card, when I see a contest being done - then there is news to cover.  Not someone saying I choose to get a PDI Pro Card. So me a list - an official list. Then it is news.

Once again, I am not saying the PDI is not going to have it's contests, or that the athletes will be pros there, I am just saying that lets see when things actually come to frutation. I wish the PDI the best. But in order for it to be news - there has to be an official web site, official promoters, official sponsors, official pro list, ec.



 I'm pretty sure that Bob wrote this.

Disgusted

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2006, 11:27:14 PM »
Disgusted,

You are right. Even you can acknowledge that statement.  When there is more, then there is more. When I see someone get a PDI Pro card, when I see a contest being done - then there is news to cover.  Not someone saying I choose to get a PDI Pro Card. So me a list - an official list. Then it is news.

Once again, I am not saying the PDI is not going to have it's contests, or that the athletes will be pros there, I am just saying that lets see when things actually come to frutation. I wish the PDI the best. But in order for it to be news - there has to be an official web site, official promoters, official sponsors, official pro list, ec.



I disagree Ron, it is news and they don't have to have a website. How many here ever go the the IFBB's website? I'm not saying that a website will not help, but so far they have managed to cause quite a stir with just a few announcments and have at least one pro make an official announcement. I'm sure that Lee has been talking to Wayne for a long time and that he is secure in the fact that it will and is becoming a reality. Wayne has been very busy the past year planning all these shows. He is doing what really counts and not building a pretty website that would mean nothing for now. As far as promoters and sponsers go, you secure them first and announce then later. I'm sure wWayne will announce them when he sees fit. Like I said before, just becasue "we" don't know doesn't mean it isn't happening.

stuntmovie

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2006, 11:30:03 PM »
ROn, I agree with your recent post but have to question one thing that you stated for clarification purposes.

I can fully understand a man's loyalty to an organization if he has a contract with that organization. No question about that.

But my question here is ...... is that same individual obligated to show complete loyalty to that organization  and no others once he signs on to become a member of that organization?

Is there a statement on that membership application which obligates the athlete solely to that organization?

Wouldn't that "member" have to be compensated in some manner for surrendering his loyalty to that organization.

Is a membership form some type of enforceable contract?

To me a membership within an organization simply asks me to abide by the rules while I am participating in the functions promoted by that organization. Once I leave that competitive venue, that membership has no control over my actions.

That is where I am confused. I take no sides here, but am interested in foreseeing all the eventualities and forecasting./identifying future problems.

Thanks


stuntmovie

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2006, 11:34:22 PM »
Hey! Great to have an intelligent conversation here with no flair-ups and anger statements.

Hope it continues in that manner.

Ron

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2006, 11:54:18 PM »
Quote
To me a membership within an organization simply asks me to abide by the rules while I am participating in the functions promoted by that organization. Once I leave that competitive venue, that membership has no control over my actions.

Good points..

Yes - a membership within an organization does abide you by their rules, competitive or non competitive. As in being in a fraternity, you abide by certain rules, pay dues, and argree to a code of conduct. I don't have to stay in that organization, but as long as I do, I abide by their rules. I cannot for instance, join two different fraternities - that isn't allowed.  And if you are part of that organization, you cannot do certain things or get kicked out. I remember one year, we put up a party flyer saying "See Jane. See Dick join AEPi. See Jane want Dick" and actually got in trouble with the university. We were warned.  Now, If I chose to leave, I can do what ever I want. And there was a code of conduct there.
 
Quote
Wouldn't that "member" have to be compensated in some manner for surrendering his loyalty to that organization. Is a membership form some type of enforceable contract?


Ford employee is Detroit are encouraged to have Ford cards. If you have a diferent car, aka a Honda or Toyota, you are frowned upon, and even made to park in a different lot far away. Is that fair? Loyalty to a brand, whether it is a company, brand, or federation does matter.


In many groups, federations, cllubs, sports entities, there are rules. Whether it is Bowling, Badmitten, Surfing, Pro Volleyball, Handball, Table Tennis or any other non-major sport (I love it when they compare bodybuilding to some huge sport), there are rules. None of the players are paid by these organizations, but they are members.







stuntmovie

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2006, 12:16:11 AM »
Yes, Ron, I see your point, but those rules only apply while you are playing that particular sport. Those rules do not apply when you shower up and leave the stadium and go play another game on another court.

And I bet ya a first year lawyer would have a field day with Ford Motors.

I can see your point regarding fraternity membership but if I join Gold's, what would be their legal right to prevent me from joining 24 Hours too?

Sorry to be so long winded on this subject matter, but I find it pretty interesting and have a feeling that improper decisions could be pushed into a court of law which is simply a major expense for all parties.   "Good night and good luck!" (Just saw that movie.)

Chick

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2006, 12:28:46 AM »
stuntmovie-

The answer you're looking for is "yes".

...much like the NFL, MLB, etc. you cannot just go play for another league when the season is over. Yes, I realize that they are getting paid by the team itself, not neccessarily the NFL per se...but the general concept is the same and they don't even own the rights to their own likeness/ team number, etc. Those are licensing rights retained by the team and NFL, MLB, etc.

As an amatuer, no, there are no restrictions as many athletes jump from one federation to another...as amatuers, there is nothing to hold them to....as a professional athlete- part of a league, group, federation, club...whatever the semantic calls for, you are bound by their rules and reg...thats what you agree to when you sign the dotted line to be part of the program, and recognized as a professional.


onlyme

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2006, 12:49:23 AM »
I'm still reading but the official website in prodivisioninc.com  It is being developed as we type.  It is not done yet.  That is also one reason I'm sure Wayne does not have an wayne@prodivisioninc.com email.  The site is being developed by a very large web developer and it will be very nice.  They have changed it a few times since starting to make sure its right. 

And to even say that because they don't have an official website they basically don't exist was wrong.  Like someone said have you seen the IFBB website.  They definitely do not take the internet seriously.  That is defintiely a site $300 could easily have paid for.

onlyme

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2006, 12:59:50 AM »
I like it when Chic is nice.  Anyway, the major sports do pay the players.  MLB, NFL, NBA, pay the players through a revenue sharing agreement.  The money that is made from licensed goods and other forms of income that is paid to the leagues are divided between teams and players. 

gordiano

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Re: Is it legal to evict an "athlete" if .....
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2006, 01:42:43 AM »
Sorry guys, you just cannot compare the IFBB to other legitimate sport leagues. No offense, but turning pro in the "mainstream sports" actually means something. You're likely to at least get a spot on the bench or a practice squad and earn something. In the IFBB who makes money from turning pro? NOBODY. There are no benefits whatsoever.

I am all for loyalty. But if the IFBB doesn't give a shit about me.....I'm out. Afterall, one has to look out for itself. I don't get why some people here won't even acknowledge that there just may be some competition soon. This is better for bbing. Better for the competitors. More opportunities for the pros.

The IFBB is a joke. I am glad we will soon have an alternative.
HAHA, RON.....