Author Topic: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?  (Read 22198 times)

Vince B

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12985
  • What you!
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #150 on: May 15, 2017, 10:12:21 PM »
Big calves look like shit though, at least from an aesthetic/artistic perspective.  Should aim for mid-size balanced with a larger focus on arms.

Depends. I have always been impressed with great calves whether on a male or female.

pellius

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22827
  • RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #151 on: May 15, 2017, 10:17:46 PM »
Can you summarize the training routine without the lengthy bullshit?  Just sets, reps, time etc... I don`t want to plow through all of that above.

No.

Vince B

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12985
  • What you!
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2017, 10:26:32 PM »
No.

I am going to have another go at both arms and calves to see what happens. Have plenty of great equipment to use.

I made a special block for donkey raises. I can use it in a doorway! Will rename it the Pellius block.

Maybe you can try to get them over 17 again...but train every 3rd day and see.

The Ugly

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21287
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2017, 11:13:34 PM »
Can you summarize the training routine without the lengthy bullshit?  Just sets, reps, time etc... I don`t want to plow through all of that above.

Pretty funny.

Pellius, amazing calves - any before pics? (Or are they already up and I'm just not seeing?)

ratherbebig

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9997
  • if you got more than 10k you're gay
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #154 on: May 16, 2017, 12:29:00 AM »

cephissus

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7599
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #155 on: May 16, 2017, 01:08:18 AM »
Results?

my calves are just as pathetic as ever

but like i said, i could only ever do his program for 3-4 consecutive sessions before i'd have to give up.  no muscle sensation, joint pain, etc.

pellius

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22827
  • RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #156 on: May 16, 2017, 01:37:40 AM »
Pretty funny.

Pellius, amazing calves - any before pics? (Or are they already up and I'm just not seeing?)

Obviously being so self-conscious about my skinny calves I have very few pictures. In fact, I only have one. It wasn't suppose to include my legs but it did. I posted it on IronAge but can't locate it now. I had to take a picture of the picture to down load on my computer and post it on the site.

pellius

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22827
  • RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #157 on: May 16, 2017, 01:41:28 AM »
Big calves look like shit though, at least from an aesthetic/artistic perspective.  Should aim for mid-size balanced with a larger focus on arms.

Only if they are out of proportion or seem too thick like the Franken-something guy with the f-up teeth. Arnold's looked perfect. Mine really aren't that big circumference wise but they are still out of proportion to my quads. I actually would rather they be say a half an inch smaller.


ratherbebig

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9997
  • if you got more than 10k you're gay
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #158 on: May 16, 2017, 01:54:59 AM »

dj181

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 27878
  • Dog sees 🐿️
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #159 on: May 16, 2017, 02:18:54 AM »
Just body weight. People think that's odd but I weighed 195 lbs at the time. That's a lot of weight to do on one calf. It cracks me up when I see people use the stack and then pile plates all over the machine and do these lame calf raises with knees bent and pushing off with the quads. The fact that they have stick calfs should tell them it's not working. Try doing them bare feet and with your knees locked straight. Reminds me of those tools that also pile plates all over the leg press and just do quarter inch reps.

I did push on the door frame for negatives.

i wouldn't do it on calves coz quite frankly I don't give a fuck aboit em

maybe ill give it a try on side laterals but it would b difficult to figure out how to work that particular exercise as hard as you did the 1 legged calf

The True Adonis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 50229
  • Fear is proof of a degenerate mind.
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #160 on: May 16, 2017, 01:28:39 PM »
my calves are just as pathetic as ever

but like i said, i could only ever do his program for 3-4 consecutive sessions before i'd have to give up.  no muscle sensation, joint pain, etc.
Pellius is avoiding a summary on the program.

Is this correct:  Do one set for 10-30 minutes, reps until burn and repeat until you can no longer even move.

That it?

The True Adonis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 50229
  • Fear is proof of a degenerate mind.
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #161 on: May 16, 2017, 01:36:48 PM »
Only if they are out of proportion or seem too thick like the Franken-something guy with the f-up teeth. Arnold's looked perfect. Mine really aren't that big circumference wise but they are still out of proportion to my quads. I actually would rather they be say a half an inch smaller.


I`d say yours are in proportion and very good.  I like how you also see it the way I do when it comes to calves.  It really looks doofussy to walk around with large calves like a fat person.

The True Adonis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 50229
  • Fear is proof of a degenerate mind.
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #162 on: May 16, 2017, 01:38:01 PM »
i wouldn't do it on calves coz quite frankly I don't give a fuck aboit em

maybe ill give it a try on side laterals but it would b difficult to figure out how to work that particular exercise as hard as you did the 1 legged calf

Can you maybe give me a brief summary on what or how to do it? 

dj181

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 27878
  • Dog sees 🐿️
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #163 on: May 16, 2017, 02:03:36 PM »
Can you maybe give me a brief summary on what or how to do it?  

with side laterals I'm not really sure

I would guess that you'd do it 1 arm at a time with a moderately heavy db in hand and go to failure and then once you hit failure use yout other hand to get out some forced reps with slow negatives but I really can't see being able to keep that up for 10 min

the other way would be to use your free hand for manual resistance to fail after around 20 reps and then just use your free hand to give negative resistance only, with this you'd also work your free hand quite hard with what I would guess would be hardcore work for your pec and front delt work on the free hand

lastly you could get a partner to manually apply the resistance but I'd say it wouldn't be so easy to find somebody to do that

Simple Simon

  • Guest
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #164 on: May 16, 2017, 02:13:54 PM »
with side laterals I'm not really sure

I would guess that you'd do it 1 arm at a time with a moderately heavy db in hand and go to failure and then once you hit failure use yout other hand to get out some forced reps with slow negatives but I really can't see being able to keep that up for 10 min

the other way would be to use your free hand for manual resistance to fail after around 20 reps and then just use your free hand to give negative resistance only, with this you'd also work your free hand quite hard with what I would guess would be hardcore work for your pec and front delt work on the free hand

lastly you could get a partner to manually apply the resistance but I'd say it wouldn't be so easy to find somebody to do that

I would go as far as to say in your case it would be impossible.

The Ugly

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21287
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #165 on: May 16, 2017, 07:21:00 PM »
Obviously being so self-conscious about my skinny calves I have very few pictures. In fact, I only have one. It wasn't suppose to include my legs but it did. I posted it on IronAge but can't locate it now. I had to take a picture of the picture to down load on my computer and post it on the site.

Ok, then.

Rarely see such a thing - with calves, I mean. Impressive.

pellius

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22827
  • RIP Keith Jones aka OnlyMe/NoWorries. 1/10/2011
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #166 on: May 17, 2017, 01:27:24 AM »
Pellius is avoiding a summary on the program.

Is this correct:  Do one set for 10-30 minutes, reps until burn and repeat until you can no longer even move.

That it?

Not avoiding just not able to describe because there was a strong mental component to it. Basile is right when he says that you have to think up news ways to get your muscles sore because they adapt rather quickly. If I wasn't sore the next day I knew I hadn't done much to stimulate an adaptive response. After I would do standard raises, the force reps, then negatives that would be enough. And when I say negatives I mean I would slowly lower my heel  while pushing with both hands under the door frame. That lasted a while and I would get pretty sore the next day. But soon it wasn't enough. That's when I did rest pause after the negs. Holding the stretch position until I recovered enough to blast through a few more reps. Did this maybe three or four times. Then that stopped so instead of just resting during the stretch phase I would do burns. That really put the intensity factor up another level. While doing the burns I would be psyching myself for the big explosion for the full rep of the rep/pause phase (with help of course by pulling myself up -- a forced rep). When I say explosion again I wasn't blasting up. I was too weak and fatigue for that. It was just a way to concentrate so I can recruit as much fibers as possible. Jones talked about this. It was the pre stretch principle. As you are lower the weight just before full stretch you do a little bounce in the stretch position. It recruits more fibers that way. In Bruce Lee's "Return of the Dragon" he spoke about how the hips precedes the punch. You don't move them in unison like closing a door. Your hips pops out first so your elbow starts behind the hip and then springs out while pushing forward with your rear foot. Just like throwing a baseball or swinging a bat. The batter doesn't just swing the bat with hips and bat rotating simultaneously. He takes a short step forward, rotates and throws his hips out first which builds tension in the pecs, rear delts, back; then the bat comes swinging.

I had to just keep adding intensity variables as my body adapted. That's when the "set" would go about ten minutes. It got to the point when after the rest pause/burns that's when I would say to myself, "OK, now it begins." Only at that point, after all those reps and burns, would I consider the real productive part coming. All that other stuff was almost like a warm up to get ready for the real heavy duty part.

So it kept going on and on like that. Figuring out new ways to get sore. Even when I was first writing about it on IronAge ten years ago I had trouble recalling the variables I used. Now it's been twenty years. But at that point I did know the feeling I would get in the muscle when I knew it would be sore the next day. It wasn't just that burning feeling we all get when we push ourselves. It almost felt like the the individual fibers were expanding. I'm not talking about the pump where your muscles get larger from the added blood supply, although I got that too, but a feeling of my muscle fibers straining and expanding. Until I got that super pump and near cramping feeling I would just keep going. After all that I did previously during that set I wasn't going to let it go all to waste by stopping before I reached DOMS territory. It was very taxing mentally and sometimes I had to take as much as 8 days off to be in the right frame of mind to put myself through this. But generally it was 5-7 days.

It's really not something I could write out as a routine. The individual really has to develop some kind of mind/muscle connection which is considered silly by most today.

It's certainly a bit silly to think that with all of this I still talking about the calf muscle. Maybe with Dennis Wolf I can understand. I don't think he'll ever win with those calves. Almost an anti calf now since they was regresses even more over the years.

Vince B

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12985
  • What you!
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #167 on: May 17, 2017, 01:39:12 AM »
About ballistic movements for the calves. Bodyweight bouncing might be fine. If you are using heavy weights then beware.

During the month I gained an inch on  my calves I got really strong doing heel raises. I ended up using 600 hundred pounds

and would do as many reps as possible then bounced until no more movement was possible. Boy was that painful. Then I

would walk around in a small circle for about 10 seconds. Then another set ending in bounces. Maybe up to 70 or more bouncing reps.

I would repeat this heel raise for up to 10 sets. I got a good pump doing this.

The problem was I ended up with sore Achilles tendons. I had to stop training calves. Luckily they recovered after a couple of weeks.

So now I don't recommend ballistic training. Perhaps if I rested longer they might have not got injured. The muscles kept growing

but the connective tissue didn't repair itself to keep up. Understand that I wasn't using anywhere near that weight at the start. More like

200 pounds. Bouncing with 600 pounds over and over isn't safe.

Conker

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3189
  • looks like you went for the overcooked potato look
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #168 on: May 17, 2017, 02:17:38 AM »
About ballistic movements for the calves. Bodyweight bouncing might be fine. If you are using heavy weights then beware.

During the month I gained an inch on  my calves I got really strong doing heel raises. I ended up using 600 hundred pounds

and would do as many reps as possible then bounced until no more movement was possible. Boy was that painful. Then I

would walk around in a small circle for about 10 seconds. Then another set ending in bounces. Maybe up to 70 or more bouncing reps.

I would repeat this heel raise for up to 10 sets. I got a good pump doing this.

The problem was I ended up with sore Achilles tendons. I had to stop training calves. Luckily they recovered after a couple of weeks.

So now I don't recommend ballistic training. Perhaps if I rested longer they might have not got injured. The muscles kept growing

but the connective tissue didn't repair itself to keep up. Understand that I wasn't using anywhere near that weight at the start. More like

200 pounds. Bouncing with 600 pounds over and over isn't safe.



you're over analysing what in essence is very simple. put down the fork and you may actually look like you train.




The True Adonis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 50229
  • Fear is proof of a degenerate mind.
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #169 on: May 17, 2017, 08:49:38 AM »
Not avoiding just not able to describe because there was a strong mental component to it. Basile is right when he says that you have to think up news ways to get your muscles sore because they adapt rather quickly. If I wasn't sore the next day I knew I hadn't done much to stimulate an adaptive response. After I would do standard raises, the force reps, then negatives that would be enough. And when I say negatives I mean I would slowly lower my heel  while pushing with both hands under the door frame. That lasted a while and I would get pretty sore the next day. But soon it wasn't enough. That's when I did rest pause after the negs. Holding the stretch position until I recovered enough to blast through a few more reps. Did this maybe three or four times. Then that stopped so instead of just resting during the stretch phase I would do burns. That really put the intensity factor up another level. While doing the burns I would be psyching myself for the big explosion for the full rep of the rep/pause phase (with help of course by pulling myself up -- a forced rep). When I say explosion again I wasn't blasting up. I was too weak and fatigue for that. It was just a way to concentrate so I can recruit as much fibers as possible. Jones talked about this. It was the pre stretch principle. As you are lower the weight just before full stretch you do a little bounce in the stretch position. It recruits more fibers that way. In Bruce Lee's "Return of the Dragon" he spoke about how the hips precedes the punch. You don't move them in unison like closing a door. Your hips pops out first so your elbow starts behind the hip and then springs out while pushing forward with your rear foot. Just like throwing a baseball or swinging a bat. The batter doesn't just swing the bat with hips and bat rotating simultaneously. He takes a short step forward, rotates and throws his hips out first which builds tension in the pecs, rear delts, back; then the bat comes swinging.

I had to just keep adding intensity variables as my body adapted. That's when the "set" would go about ten minutes. It got to the point when after the rest pause/burns that's when I would say to myself, "OK, now it begins." Only at that point, after all those reps and burns, would I consider the real productive part coming. All that other stuff was almost like a warm up to get ready for the real heavy duty part.

So it kept going on and on like that. Figuring out new ways to get sore. Even when I was first writing about it on IronAge ten years ago I had trouble recalling the variables I used. Now it's been twenty years. But at that point I did know the feeling I would get in the muscle when I knew it would be sore the next day. It wasn't just that burning feeling we all get when we push ourselves. It almost felt like the the individual fibers were expanding. I'm not talking about the pump where your muscles get larger from the added blood supply, although I got that too, but a feeling of my muscle fibers straining and expanding. Until I got that super pump and near cramping feeling I would just keep going. After all that I did previously during that set I wasn't going to let it go all to waste by stopping before I reached DOMS territory. It was very taxing mentally and sometimes I had to take as much as 8 days off to be in the right frame of mind to put myself through this. But generally it was 5-7 days.

It's really not something I could write out as a routine. The individual really has to develop some kind of mind/muscle connection which is considered silly by most today.

It's certainly a bit silly to think that with all of this I still talking about the calf muscle. Maybe with Dennis Wolf I can understand. I don't think he'll ever win with those calves. Almost an anti calf now since they was regresses even more over the years.
I just don`t think I have those kind of muscle fibers because I have tried things similar to that concept.  I made up a workout called "The 500" once.  The 500 referred to 500 reps you were going to do per bodypart that day.  It went like this: You start with a weight you can get around 10 reps with.  You do that weight until you can`t do anymore reps, then immediately lower the weight a few lbs and continue.  You do this all the way to 500 but the trick is you DO NOT rest if possible.  Only rest as much as you can breathe and hoist a rep up.

I did it for a short while and it did not work at all for me.  Although I do admit that I probably should have been consuming a shit load more protein than I was at the time for that workout.  Who knows, maybe I would have had a better result.  I do think in cases where you are doing extreme workouts one may need to adjust protein up over normal or moderate levels.

I was so sore I really did not want to do anything.  Not fun. 

Grape Ape

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24639
  • SC è un asino
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #170 on: May 17, 2017, 09:11:57 AM »
My calves didn't budge until I started rucking.

Just tons of walking miles under moderate weight.
Y

ratherbebig

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9997
  • if you got more than 10k you're gay
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #171 on: May 17, 2017, 11:14:18 AM »

wes

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 71215
  • What Dire Mishap Has Befallen Thee
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #172 on: May 17, 2017, 02:48:31 PM »
Awesome calf development pellius......props my brother!   ;)

cephissus

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7599
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #173 on: May 17, 2017, 07:41:40 PM »
Pellius is avoiding a summary on the program.

Is this correct:  Do one set for 10-30 minutes, reps until burn and repeat until you can no longer even move.

That it?

It was years ago, here's what I remember:

1.  One leg calf raises
2.  Force the negative on every rep, resisting as much as possible
3.  Assisted positive as necessary
4.  When you can't control control the negative whatsoever start bouncing slightly in the stretched position to "recover", for 10 or so seconds.
5.  Repeat 3-5 times, or as much as you can handle.

Repeat with second leg.  That's one set.  I can't remember if he recommended doing multiple sets, I think I only ever did one.

He recommended doing it in a door frame while standing on a dictionary.  You can use the door frame to assist the positive (pull up on trim) and force the negative (push down on top of frame).

I always did it on an incline bench, standing on the spotting platform.  I used the bar to assist the positive and force the negative.

Vince B

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12985
  • What you!
Re: Training for decades,are you still re-inventing the wheel in the gym?
« Reply #174 on: May 17, 2017, 09:20:52 PM »
I just don`t think I have those kind of muscle fibers because I have tried things similar to that concept.  I made up a workout called "The 500" once.  The 500 referred to 500 reps you were going to do per bodypart that day.  It went like this: You start with a weight you can get around 10 reps with.  You do that weight until you can`t do anymore reps, then immediately lower the weight a few lbs and continue.  You do this all the way to 500 but the trick is you DO NOT rest if possible.  Only rest as much as you can breathe and hoist a rep up.

I did it for a short while and it did not work at all for me.  Although I do admit that I probably should have been consuming a shit load more protein than I was at the time for that workout.  Who knows, maybe I would have had a better result.  I do think in cases where you are doing extreme workouts one may need to adjust protein up over normal or moderate levels.

I was so sore I really did not want to do anything.  Not fun. 

I doubt you needed more protein to grow. Probably more calories! I tell young bodybuilders to try to weigh more every week....even workout if at the same time.