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Author Topic: Theory vs facts  (Read 1712 times)
oldtimer1
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« on: December 31, 2017, 11:01:07 AM »

We have champs training with one set to failure after warm up and have champs using 6 sets per exercise. What we have are training theories. If we had training facts we would all be on the same training split using the same exercises using the same methodology. Despite all the bs coming out the the quasi exercise physiology community with poorly designed studies there are no facts regarding bodybuilding. Yes one could argue there wouldn't be bodybuilding without drugs but that's a another topic. Out on a limb here but sometimes empirical knowledge trumps some questionable studies.

I have been heavily influenced by Arthur Jones. He was making waves around the time I started training. He was very persuasive in his rhetoric. I have been training with one or two work sets per exercise forever. Over 40 decades. I'm always concerned with the weight on the bar. Sometimes I believe I would have made better gains if I trained for the lack of a better term muscular endurance. Four or six sets with only the last set going to failure. If intensity was the biggest factor wouldn't training for sets of one rep be the highest intensity you could aspire to? It seems muscular size is the product of training for muscular endurance. That's not to be confused with cardio vascular training.

In terms of intensity training protocols I see parallels with running community. Even though there is a general consensus on how to train a miler there are elite runners all over the map with their training.  Some log many rode miles and some it's all about the intervals on a track. Now most coaches will say months of rode work and then months of intervals like 10 x 400 meter repeats. Why do I bring this up? Even at elite athletics there isn't a training fact. It's training theories.

Maybe Jeff Everson said it best. He wrote in effect, Until Pigs fly you don't have to be a scientist to be a bodybuilder.  

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illuminati
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2018, 06:54:15 AM »

Theory was Bumblee Bees couldn’t fly
Fact was they Did.
 Wink
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 06:04:33 PM »

Theory was Bumblee Bees couldn’t fly
Fact was they Did.
 Wink

Thanks for the response. Of course there are no true answers but what do you think? Is one or two sets to failure doing dips with attached weight or is it more productive to do 4 or 5 sets of 10 full range perfect reps? 
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illuminati
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2018, 09:20:31 PM »

Thanks for the response. Of course there are no true answers but what do you think? Is one or two sets to failure doing dips with attached weight or is it more productive to do 4 or 5 sets of 10 full range perfect reps?  

From my own & the many years of training / being in different gyms
Being involved/ helping others & looking at other sports
The ‘Volume’ approach of x number of sets & reps is the most widely
Used & Productive way to muscular growth.

1 set to failure does logically make sense - it just doesn’t seem to work & is fraught with far
More dangers / risk of injury.

Who would risk going into a gym and loading their maximum weight for x (8-12) number
Of reps say 500/600lbs+ onto the squat bar & perform 1 all out set - how long would it
Be before you got a injury.  
Once you start doing ‘warm up’ sets it becomes volume training
Not 1set to failure.

Also why not 1set of 1 all out rep with maximum weight.

There are just so many variables to factor in when it comes to training & creating muscular growth.
IE- Genetics / mental attitude/ intensity/ food intake / recovery time / daily stress levels / sleep etc
Let alone PED’s.
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2018, 07:55:25 PM »

Thanks for the rational and thought out response. I belonged to this gym where I would watch one guy who had an amazing ripped physique. Maybe not from the champion bodybuilders perspective but never the less he was built. I would go on the dipping bars and do two sets of full range to failure dips with a 25lbs plate at the end of my tricep routine. He would jump on and knock out 5 sets of body weight dips. On squats he would use to my shock just 135lbs while I used heavy weight. He would do something like 5 sets of 12 with very little rest in between sets. On and on it went. From these moderate and even light weights he had a fantastic build. From this observation and decades of observation I'm beginning to rethink if I'm using too much weight to my detriment. Remember Wilf Sylvester the short class Mr. Universe winner from 1975? For that contest he used body weight squats with leg extensions and leg curls. Here's universe winner that didn't use 300lbs, 400lbs or 500lbs squats. He used body weight for 400 reps. Not sure how many sets to get to 400 reps. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that intensity over a few sets might not be the magic bullet. Volume might.


* Wilf.jpg (65.5 KB, 600x405 - viewed 285 times.)
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chess315
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2018, 02:42:28 PM »

I think probably mix it up we will never the truth all these things worked I have seen people work a full body routine once a week bench 600lbs
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illuminati
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 12:32:44 AM »

I think probably mix it up we will never the truth all these things worked I have seen people work a full body routine once a week bench 600lbs

I also believe there is no 1 definitive way to train.
Many variations have some merit

Experiment and mix & match when training is likely
As good a route as any.

We all have different recovery rates & adaptation ( muscle building ) rate
And red / white muscle fibre counts / biomechanics / attachments / hormone
Levels / stress levels / diets / metabolism etc etc

And they all affect results from training to some degree.

No 1 size fits all answer.
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heenok
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« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2018, 02:37:14 AM »

Muscle growth has been studied a lot actually.
Volume (weight x sets x reps) is the n°1 parameter for hypertrophy as long as you are using at the very least 60% of your 1RM.
Anything else is just details.
The low volume advocates are con men. Doing one set, failure or not, is not optimal.
All the biggest guys are training high volume.
Dorian is just one exception to the rule but with his genetics and drugs he would have grown from anything.
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illuminati
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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2018, 03:01:30 AM »

Muscle growth has been studied a lot actually.
Volume (weight x sets x reps) is the n°1 parameter for hypertrophy as long as you are using at the very least 60% of your 1RM.
Anything else is just details.
The low volume advocates are con men. Doing one set, failure or not, is not optimal.
All the biggest guys are training high volume.
Dorian is just one exception to the rule but with his genetics and drugs he would have grown from anything.


Clearly you don’t know Dorian
Yes all down to his Drugs & Superior Genetics
Of Course Dorian was taking huge amounts  Roll Eyes

Had you trained at his gym during the 90’s / known him / competed with him ?
I have.
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heenok
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2018, 01:28:00 AM »

Then im curious, was he really training low volume ?
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illuminati
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 12:33:30 PM »

Then im curious, was he really training low volume ?

Yes - Have you watched His Blood & Guts video ?
That is a how he trained mostly.

His drug usage isn’t the extreme nonsense that keeps being spouted
By the All Drugs + more Drugs brigade.
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chess315
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 11:24:14 AM »

Yes - Have you watched His Blood & Guts video ?
That is a how he trained mostly.

His drug usage isn’t the extreme nonsense that keeps being spouted
By the All Drugs + more Drugs brigade.
that being said I have made good Gains on 1 day a week full body training as good as any thing else. Bon Sapp trains that. Way also just once a week
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