Jay Cutler - 45 years old - vs Steeve Reeves

[funk51]

While in the film phase of his career, Steve Reeves said he only trained about one month a year but ate well.

     i read that too in one of his books.. he would train a month before each movie appearance... and he didn't train that long to win his mr universe title.. most of his training for that was done in York pa.. where it was said he made enormous gains in a very short time.

[Pet shop boys]

WooSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH     

[stuntmovie]

ILLUMINATE, I also like and appreciate what you said and how you said it in response to my initial Steve Reves comments.

And I agree entirely but to the best of my knowledge and of the times involved and Reeves physque  and his very own personal comments about roid usage within the bodybuilding world, and his apparent honesty  ... I still believe that he was completely natural.

BUT .... I had never known that Steve visited YORK, PA. as mentioned above (Thanks, FUNK .. but are you sure about that?) and to the best of my limited knowledge ... that was the principal US location in which roid use first started.

Bill Starr who passed away recently was once the self appointed and deserving expert on all things YORK,  and has told us many interesting York-day stories which I often suggested that he include in a tell-all book, but as far as I know ... he never did ... unless some of this early day lifting and Bob Hoffman/York stuff was somehow included in Bill's .... ONLY THE STRONG WILL SURVIVE!

But there were no reported sexual shenanigans, so it just might not be of interest to most GetBiggers.

Illuminate, Thanks again. I like the way you expressed yourself.

And I find it difficult to disagree even though I want to

[NarcissisticDeity]

     i read that too in one of his books.. he would train a month before each movie appearance... and he didn't train that long to win his mr universe title.. most of his training for that was done in York pa.. where it was said he made enormous gains in a very short time.

LMAO Reeves predates ANY known drug use by strength athletes. There is NO known history of strength athletes using anything until Dr John Zeigler in the late 50s which was years AFTER Reeves retired. He started to use pure test on weightlifters with NO effect. There is a history of the use of PEDs in bodybuilding and this is after Steve Reeves time. Everyone has a theory , a story , an anecdote NO ONE has any facts.

   

Periodically on the various internet bodybuilding forums someone makes a completely baseless statement about steroid use, when it started, and who was using them back in the 'old days'. When I see ignorance being masqueraded as fact I almost always feel compelled to join the discussion and refute some of the often outrageous statements being hurled about. I'm going to recap what's known about the history of anabolic steroid use in sports so I can refer people to this entry rather than go through it time and time again.

All reliable sources - publications by Terry Todd, John Fair, Randy Roach, Bill Starr, etc, as well as interviews and letters from John Ziegler, John Grimek, Bill March, etc - indicate that experimentation with testosterone for athletic purposes began in the U.S. sometime in either late 1954 or 1955. These 'trials' were short-lived, however, as the results were disappointing and testosterone use was deemed ineffective and carried the risk of harmful side-effects. A statistical analysis of Olympic-style Weightlifting performances published in the International Journal of the History of Sport concluded that Soviet athletes likely first used testosterone sometime between 1952 and 1956.

Dr. John Ziegler, physician for the U.S. Olympic Weightlifting team (i.e. the York team), described in interviews of learning about the Soviet use of testosterone injections at the 1954 World Weightlifting Championships in Vienna, Austria in October of that year. Some time after returning home, Ziegler convinced York affiliated lifters John Grimek, Jim Park and Yaz Kuzahara to be test subjects and receive testosterone injections (oral testosterone was known to be clinically ineffective by that time). By Grimek's account, the results were disappointing. In a private letter, dated at the time, Grimek spoke of seeing nothing in the way of gains and quiting the injections because he felt he was actually regressing. Jim Park received only one injection which he claimed did nothing for him physically, but made him incredibly horny. It is unclear as to Kuzahara's experience but, in any case, it was not positive enough to warrant continued use and further experimentation was ceased. In light of the terrible side effects that Ziegler had heard of and witnessed Soviet users suffering, and lack of significant results in his own test subjects, no further experimentation with testosterone was tried by the York (U.S.) Weightlifting team for the duration of the 1950s.

This was not the end of Ziegler's involvement with steroids, however. Ziegler began work with CIBA Pharmaceuticals in 1955 to develop a testosterone derivative that would carry the anabolic properties of testosterone without the undesirable side effects. Preliminary results began coming in by 1956, and Dianabol was released to the U.S. prescription drug market in 1958 for use in wasting conditions. CIBA's competitor, Searle, beat them to the market, however, and introduced Nilevar, the first synthetic anabolic/androgenic steroid, to the prescription drug market in 1956 (used as a polio treatment).

In late 1959 (some claim as early as 1958, some as late as 1960) Ziegler decided to try the new Dianabol on some of the non-medal contending York lifters and enlisted Grimek to convince a few lifters to begin taking it under his (Ziegler's) supervision. Lower level or non-competitive lifters were chosen for the initial trials so as not to risk marring the performance of medal contenders at the upcoming 1960 Olympics (Dianabol was, at that time, a relatively untested drug and York chief Bob Hoffman was said to have feared trying it on his top lifters). Bill March, Tony Garcy, John Grimek, Ziegler himself and later Lou Riecke were the first Guinea Pigs, and the results were much more promising this time around.

From there, Dianabol use quickly spread to the entire York Weightlifting team. Now, up-and-coming York lifters and Strength and Health magazine writers such as Bill Starr and Tommy Suggs started letting the secret out to the bodybuilding community, and by the early-to-mid 1960s almost all high-level competitive bodybuilders were taking steroids in the weeks leading up to contests. This pre-contest cycling scheme by bodybuilders was based on the Weightlifters' practice of escalating steroid use in the weeks leading up to lifting meets - the logic being that just as the lifters wanted to be at their best (strongest) come meet day, bodybuilders wanted to peak at their biggest on the day of the contest. It didn't take long for steroid use to spill into the 'off-season' as well, as this allowed bodybuilders to build more ultimate muscle mass.

The man who would go on to become the first Mr. Olympia, Larry Scott, gained 8 pounds of muscle in two months between the 1960 Mr. Los Angeles (in which he placed third), and the 1960 Mr. California (which he won, defeating the two men who had placed above him in the Mr. Los Angeles two months earlier). A year earlier he had won the Mr. Idaho weighing just 152 pounds. Larry credits Rheo Blair, and his protein powder, as being instrumental in his sudden improvement. However, considering Larry's dramatic gains from that point onward, and Blair's reported possession of Nilevar a few years earlier before he even moved to California, it is quite likely that this time in 1960 also marks Larry's first usage of steroids (something to which he admits but, to my knowledge, hasn't specified the date).

But the early 1960s did't mark the true origins of bodybuilder's regular use of steroids, however. In an early edition of his book Getting Stronger, Bill Pearl told of meeting Arthur Jones (founder of the Nautilus line of training equipment and father of the "HIT" style of training) in 1958 and learning of Nilevar from him. After a little further investigation, Pearl began a twelve-week cycle of the steroid and gained 25 pounds. At around that same time, Irvin Johnson (aka Rheo H. Blair - 'father' of the first protein powders) is said to have had Searle's Nilevar in his possession, though he isn't believed to have been widely distributing it to bodybuilders at that time.

So what can we gather from all of this? First of all, no bodybuilder or lifter was using synthetic steroids before 1956 - they didn't exist. Most likely, only the very highest level West Coast bodybuilders knew of them by 1958. From there it seems that knowledge of Nilevar and Dianabol to build muscle and strength was kept relatively in the closet until the early 1960s. After all, Hoffman did not want outside athletes to know his lifters' secrets and he was using their sudden gains via Dianabol to promote his supplement line and isometric training courses and racks. Bill Starr wrote that until he was a national calibre lifter with York in the early 1960s he had never heard of steroids. Reg Park (Mr. Universe 1951, 1958, 1965) said that the first he heard of them were in connection with rumours about East German and Soviet athletes during the 1960 Olympics, though he later heard of "steroids" being used on British POWs from Singapore in WWII as they were being nursed back to health in Australian hospitals. Chet Yorton (Mr. America 1966, Mr. Universe 1966, 1975) has said that he first heard of steroids (Nilevar) in 1964, and decided not to risk using them - Yorton went on to become one of the sports most outspoken campaigners against steroid use and founder of the first drug-tested, natural bodybuilding federation. The condition of national and world level bodybuilders appears to have taken a visible leap between 1960 to 1964.

As for testosterone itself, Paul de Kruif's 1945 book "The Male Hormone" is often cited as "proof" that bodybuilders knew of and were using testosterone in the 1940s. But even though testosterone had been identified by researchers and isolated in laboratory settings as early as the 1930s, it didn't receive FDA approval as a prescription drug until 1950 and, therefore, injectable testosterone was produced only sporadically and in small batches for research purposes, before that time. De Kruif himself made no clear connection between testosterone use and possible athletic applications, though he did briefly raise the question if it could surpass the effects of large vitamin doses in baseball players - aside from this single sentence, his arguments were purely from the perspective of using testosterone to restore the vitality and health of hypogonadal and aging men.

It has been said that John Grimek, upon reading publications such as de Kruif's, was inquiring about testosterone in the 1940s. But he would have had nothing other than a possible hunch that it could be used for athletic purposes, and no source or opportunity to experiment with it. There were, in fact, two companies in California advertising "genuine testosterone" tablets through mail order in the late 1940s, but were ordered to stop by the FDA in early-to-mid 1951 when regulations to control the distribution of controlled substances were tightened. It was well known by researchers at that time, however, that the liver effectively clears almost all orally ingested testosterone within seconds, even very large doses (clearance rate of 24.5mg/min/kg), so these tablets would have produced no effects even if they did contain crystalline testosterone. The low bioavailability of oral testosterone is precisely why injections were used in early research and why synthetic steroids were eventually developed.

It wasn't until 1954/1955 with Ziegler, that Grimek wrote of getting his first testosterone injections. It stands to reason that if even Grimek had no access to bioavailable testosterone before 1954-55 and no knowledge of other top level bodybuilders or lifters using it before then - and as editor of Strength and Health magazine and second in command at York he certainly was in a position to know - then it is very unlikely that anyone in the west was effectively using testosterone for athletic/physique purposes before late 1954/1955. Given that these early experiments were unsuccessful and brief (likely because they knew little about dosing for increased strength and muscle mass), it is most likely that the first western bodybuilders began steroid use not with testosterone itself, but with Nilevar, sometime after 1956 to 1958. From there, Dianabol enters the picture at the elite level and by 1964 even the muscle magazines, such as Iron Man, were writing about what they called the "tissue building drugs".

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential athletic effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively rarely used prescription drug. He would also had to have known more about how to effectively dose it than John Ziegler, who would go on to co-develop Dianabol just a few years later. Nobody in the west can say for sure exactly when the Soviets began using testosterone, but the likely date is sometime before October 1954 and possibly as early as 1952.

As mentioned, injectable testosterone was first approved for prescription as a cancer, wasting and burn treatment in the U.S. in 1950. Before that it was available for research purposes only, with the FDA tightening regulations and enforcement in the early 1950s. Ads for "genuine testosterone tablets" were placed in national newspapers by two California companies from 1946 to 1951, but the actual ingredients of these tablets were uncontrolled, cannot be verified, and due to the body's clearance rate oral testosterone would be inconsequential anyway. For a bodybuilder to be effectively using testosterone before 1950 he would not only had to have known more about the biochemistry, dosing and potential athletic applications of it than anybody else in the world (including the research scientists working with it), but also have had access to what was then an experimental drug, isolated in limited amounts for controlled research purposes, and not produced in quantity for a public or prescription market. "Snake oil" ads for testosterone tablets, even if they contained what was advertised (which in itself was vague), would not have significantly impacted blood testosterone levels due to the liver's massive testosterone clearance rate and cannot be considered a reliable source.

For these reasons it can be stated with near certainty that Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, John Grimek, Jack Delinger, Reg Park, John Farbotnik, George Eiferman, etc - who all won major physique titles before the Soviets began using testosterone and before synthetic steroids were introduced in 1956 - were not using bioavailable testosterone or synthetic steroids at the time of their Mr. America, Mr. USA and Mr. Universe wins. Furthermore, it is unlikely that any major title winner was a steroid user before 1957-58 (Pearl won the Mr. USA and Mr. Universe titles in 1956 before his knowledge of Nilevar). Some athletes' careers from the era, such as Reg Park's, do span the introduction of steroids into bodybuilding. In Park's case, he weighed 226 lbs when he won the Mr. Britain title in 1949, 214 lbs when he won the Mr. Universe title in 1951, 215 lbs when he won it the second time in 1958, and 216 lbs when he placed 3rd in 1971 (at age 43 - he returned again in 1973 to place 2nd). If Park did jump on the steroid bandwagon when he learned of them in 1960, then they produced one pound of muscle in 11 years for him.

[Earl1972]

never liked either of their physiques

i don't mind the backwards cap, it's just strange how jay wears his hat like that in his 40's but never did in his 20's or 30's

E

[NarcissisticDeity]

Greatest genetics ever seen and people think he's on gear at just 215lbs at 6'1" lol people will fucking believe anything.

[The Scott]

No contest.  Steve Reeves is without a doubt the best built (and most handsome) natural man ever. The photo above is superb and has always been an inspiration to me and even more so to John. 

I understand why some take AAS but in the last few decades bodybuilding has become nothing but drugs.  You need only look at Phildo or Roelly to know this is true.  It has gone beyond year 'round use to lifetime use.  Given that the lifespan of these abusers is likely to be very short, "lifetime" takes on a new meaning.  Like the old song by the Spinners said, it's a shame.


Steve Reeves inspired one of the finest physiques of the 70s, 80s and of all time - Frank Zane.

[tres_taco_combo]

     i read that too in one of his books.. he would train a month before each movie appearance... and he didn't train that long to win his mr universe title.. most of his training for that was done in York pa.. where it was said he made enormous gains in a very short time.

thank you

my dad's favorite is steve

[IroNat]

Reeves did train in York in 1950.

Read...

[funk51]

Reeves did train in York in 1950.

Read...

                    they made the incline bench esp. for steve it had to be exactly 45 degrees for his db curls

[oldtimer1]

Steve trained in York for a short time. Most of his training was in California.

Regarding steroid use you can see the drastic change in the physiques after Dianabol was invented. Users like to justify their use by rationalization saying it's impossible to be a muscular man without the assist because they can't do it.

Reeves was muscular as a young teenager training in a shed in Montana. There are pictures of him at 16 or 15 that look amazing. He was nick named the shape in during his Army service during World War II lifting a 110lbs set in the jungles of the Philippines area. He was muscular his whole life until his health failed him. He was adamantly anti drug use. I can only imagine what he would look like if he dosed on Dianabol like Larry Scott did.

Reeves used a split routine from time to time but for all of his contests he trained the whole body three times a week. Maybe he knew something about what truly is cutting edge training is all about then and now.

[illuminati]

ILLUMINATE, I also like and appreciate what you said and how you said it in response to my initial Steve Reves comments.

And I agree entirely but to the best of my knowledge and of the times involved and Reeves physque  and his very own personal comments about roid usage within the bodybuilding world, and his apparent honesty  ... I still believe that he was completely natural.

BUT .... I had never known that Steve visited YORK, PA. as mentioned above (Thanks, FUNK .. but are you sure about that?) and to the best of my limited knowledge ... that was the principal US location in which roid use first started.

Bill Starr who passed away recently was once the self appointed and deserving expert on all things YORK,  and has told us many interesting York-day stories which I often suggested that he include in a tell-all book, but as far as I know ... he never did ... unless some of this early day lifting and Bob Hoffman/York stuff was somehow included in Bill's .... ONLY THE STRONG WILL SURVIVE!

But there were no reported sexual shenanigans, so it just might not be of interest to most GetBiggers.

Illuminate, Thanks again. I like the way you expressed yourself.

And I find it difficult to disagree even though I want to

Thank you for your comments Stuntmovie.

As I stated I have no interest in if reeves or any other bodybuilder/ sportsman
Used PE’s or they didn’t it doesn’t affect how I view them or think of them.

For his era Steve had a very good physique- likewise Jc Grimek before,
A very different type of physique but very good.

For those that admire / worship Reeves good for them.

I’m just very realistic about us as humans & admitting / lying about things
So we are seen in a better light - The more pressure the more the spotlight is on
& we have more to lose perceived or otherwise the more we will deny & cover.
We have seen it at every level & throughout history over all sorts of thing from
Serious to trivial.
It’s in Human Nature.

Again that’s not meant as a slur against Reeves or anyone else.

On a different note as you state you were unaware that Reeves had trained at YORK
not that that implies anything just shows that even his places to train were not always
Widely known.

[Griffith]

Reeves at a smaller size for his movie roles but still with great shape.

[IroNat]

More about Reeves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Reeves

Interestingly as you can see from the above posted photos, his leg development as a teen is identical to his development when he won the Mr. America and Universe in his early 20s.

Truly incredible genetics.  Probably the best ever natural genetics if you include facial looks and all-over aesthetics. Perfect pec line on his chest, huge calves, classic symmetry, movie star looks.

This does not mean he would have responded to drugs well or not.  That's a whole 'nother game.

He "retired" from bodybuilding competition at age 24.

[stuntmovie]

Thanks, Oldtimer, Narc, Iron, Funk, and others for the info you provided.

Sometimes I think I know everything but thanks to old geezers such as yourselves, I discover I only know 90% of everything!

I gotta add ... One of the best shots ever taken of Reeves was shot at Stenson Beach (I think) by my good, old, but presently deceased friend (I think) Arty Zeller.

But it could have been Russ Warner ...

Anyway .... It was a b&W photo of Steve doing a double arm with the setting sun in the background and simply showed Steve's  sillouette .

Can anyone find that photo?

One additional comment that I posted on this board years ago and may have recently mentioned it briefly ...

Many years ago when Steve was relatively unknown, he would spend a few summer days in a small resort spot among the redwoods call Rio Nido.

Rio Nido was on the Russian River about 70 miles NW from Steve's neighborhood and one weekend he and one of his bulked up, gym buddies were talking to some of the other young kids when someone gave him a sucker punch and knocked him down ... for no apparent reason.

By the time Steve stood up, the bastard was gone.

That's the end of that story, but more to come as they get recalled.

[stuntmovie]

FUNK, Regarding that photo of Steve and Debbi Reynolds which you posted ....

The set designer placed some flowers on the table and Steve reached over and took part of the flower and started eating it while the camera rolled.

That's how the story goes but it was never mentioned in the script.

I recall one person behind the camera said that it was an orchid.

That was in 1954 and I wasn't present so I can't say it with absolute truthfulness, but it does sound like something Steve would do.

[The Scott]

FUNK, That photo of Steve and Debbi Reynolds which you posted ....
The set designer placed some flowers on the table and Steve reacher over and took part of the flower and started eating eating it while the camera rolled.

That's how the story goes but it was never mentioned in the script.

I recall one person behind the camera said that it was an orchid.

That was in 1954 and I wasn't present so I can't say it with absolute truthfulness, but it does sound like something Steve would do.

Yes, it was the orchid corsage in the film, "Athena".    I have that film on laser disc.  Edmund Purdom was the male lead in the movie.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Thanks, Oldtimer, Narc, Iron, Funk, and others for the info you provided.

Sometimes I think I know everything but thanks to old geezers such as yourselves, I discover I only know 90% of everything!

I gotta add ... One of the best shots ever taken of Reeves was shot at Stenson Beach (I think) by my good, old, but presently deceased friend (I think) Arty Zeller.

But it could have been Russ Warner ...

Anyway .... It was a b&W photo of Steve doing a double arm with the setting sun in the background and simply showed Steve's  sillouette .

Can anyone find that photo?

One additional comment that I posted on this board years ago and may have recently mentioned it briefly ...

Many years ago when Steve was relatively unknown, he would spend a few summer days in a small resort spot among the redwoods call Rio Nido.

Rio Nido was on the Russian River about 70 miles NW from Steve's neighborhood and one weekend he and one of his bulked up, gym buddies were talking to some of the other young kids when someone gave him a sucker punch and knocked him down ... for no apparent reason.

By the time Steve stood up, the bastard was gone.

That's the end of that story, but more to come as they get recalled.

Is this the picture?

[The Scott]

Is this the picture?

I think that one was taken prior to the '47 Mr. America in Chicago overlooking Lake Michigan. 

[NarcissisticDeity]

I think that one was taken prior to the '47 Mr. America in Chicago overlooking Lake Michigan. 

You're correct I believe he said this was the best he's ever looked.

[stuntmovie]

NARC/SCOTT, Thanks but those shots do not include the silhouette shot I mentioned earlier, but those shots above are among the best ever taken of Reeves.

The silhouette shot I metioned earlier was taken against the setting sun if I recall correctly and all you could see was the dark image of Steve ... similar to seeing a well proportioned shadow of an excellent physique.

I will bet that those shots as you posted above were talen by a photographer named Caruso, or possibly Zeller, or possibly even Warner ... but definitely not Weider who was not held in high esteem back in them good old days.

[stuntmovie]

OK, Sorry but I gotta add this .....

Steve was exceptional but was not the only individual who had a great look/physique back then.

The big thing I'm trying to say here is that .... Steve was just one of a handful of decent physiques in the Bay Area who was not reluctant and was ready, willing, and able to strip down and 'squeeze' his package  into little, form fitting trunks and have his picture taken.

Back in those days it was considered to be a bit taboo to pose almost bare-assed naked in front of a camera held by a stranger and then have it published in 'questionable' magazines which could only be purchased at downtown locations and only if you could reach up high enough to pull one off that very high, top rack.

Public opinion accepting bodybuilders took a long time to change and ....... as you can see on this GetBoard .... sometimes it doesn't change at all.

So I'm saying that there were others who were somewhat similar to Reeves, but they were too 'victorian' to strip down and show their bods.

One of our high school divers was definitely equal or possibly even better than Reeves physique-wise but he only took his shirt off when he was competing.

Hell, Speedos and any clothing resembling Speedos were never worn in public by rational individuals unless you were on the swimming/diving team and most of those  guys felt more comfortable in the water when Speedo adorned.

The above may all sound crazy now-a-days but back then it was the norm .....  and we were still departing from a semi-Victorian age.

And look at where that led us!

Times and the people involved were so much different then.

I would be surprised if anyone could show a photo of a neighborhood kid back in those days hitting muscle shots   like is so rampant on this here internet thing now-a-days.

[oldtimer1]

Steve and his hack squat contraption.

[oldtimer1]

Steve

[stuntmovie]

OLDTIMER, Good shot. I never saw that one. Where did you find it?

Steve's trunks are the type that shoud be required today.

Can anyone ID the individual to whom he is speaking... Or anyone in the background?

Or the event?