BCAA a waste of money ?

[pellius]

Tell me how comfortable you feel drinking this stuff, this is just some tid bits from one case study, done by independent lab testing.

-selling products where the protein content falls far below what’s on the label, according to a spate of lawsuits that have cropped up over the past eight months. “Arnold Schwarzenegger Series Iron Mass,” for instance, contains half the protein stated on its label, according to third party testing in one lawsuit; Schwarzenegger is not named as a defendant in the complaint. MusclePharm, which was sued in a California federal court in late January by Ram, Olson, Cereghino and Kopczynski, is only the most recent company under attack for allegedly misleading their customers about just how much protein their products contain.

an array of supplement companies tested by a third-party lab. Results showed some products’ labels significantly overstated the protein content, slipping in amino acids and other substances and claiming them as protein on their labels. But third-party tests, attached to some of the lawsuits, show some companies also fill the tubs with far cheaper free form amino acids like glycine, taurine or leucine as well as other substances like creatine monohydrate, and then portray them as grams of protein on the products’ labels. Certain amino acids are considered the building blocks to protein but they are not protein by themselves, nor do they have the same benefits as complete proteins.

These filler substances can cost less than $1 per pound, allowing companies to undercut competition with lower prices and dupe price-sensitive customers in the process.
For instance, test results showed “Giant Delicious Protein Blend” made by privately held Giant Sports contains only 12 grams of the 27 grams of “High Quality Protein” it advertises, only 44% of the stated amount. Instead, the powdered blend is loaded with leucine, isoleucine, valine, glycine, betaine, taurine and creatine monohydrate.
Similarly, a lab test of MusclePharm’s “Arnold Scharzenegger Series Iron Mass” revealed that just 19 of the promised 40 grams of protein were present, according to exhibits in the lawsuit. Prior to the lab test results, MusclePharm denied over Twitter that it spiked its products.

The lab testing in a lawsuit against publicly traded convenience store and pharmacy chain CVS Health, which generates $140 billion in annual sales, shows that its “Whey Protein Powder” contains 21.8 grams of protein, 16% less than the 26 grams claimed

NBTY was among the first companies sued -- back in July 2014 -- for allegedly underdosing its “Body Fortress Super Advanced Whey Protein,” which, according to the lab tests contained only 21.5 of the 30 grams promised.

Connecticut-based Inner Armour has the most products under scrutiny. Tests of five of its products – “Mass Peak,” “NitroPeak,” “Casein Peak,” “Whey Protein,” and “Super Quad Protein” – came up well short on protein compared with its label claims. For instance, it’s “Mass Peak” product only contained 19 of the 50 grams claimed, and its “Whey Protein” only contained 9 of 24 grams claimed, the tests showed.

This is just one case study amongst many. So sorry I don't feel comfortable ingesting products I have no clue whats in them, not to mention spiking with creatine, perfect scenario for a competitor trying to lean out yet the creatine is making them hold water, or just the everyday guy that wants to get chicks, but can't seem to lose the moon face, never would think it's my creatine spiked protein powder.

Very comfortable. Been consuming these products, as well as 100 of millions of others, without ill effects. Just because you are being sued does not mean you are guilty.

You are grossly exaggerating the issue. These products have third-party testing constantly. And, yes, some are crap. Just like in EVERY single industry. My cousin is a nurse at Castle hospital and they use a liquid whey protein supplement for their bariatric patients. And they give a list of supplements they have to buy during their recovery. If everything was crap there would be serious consequences. Reputation is everything in this business and if you are in it for the long haul there is not a huge incentive to just turn out complete garbage. Cutting corners, I'm sure. Just turning out a worthless product. That's not how a business is run.

So, again I answered your question directly and honestly. Yes, I feel very comfortable using name brand nutritional products. I've been involved in this longer than you've been alive.

Now you answer my question: how comfortable do you feel using hormones not made in a pharmacy, with literally zero quality control, using products from a country notorious for poor quality control and where cheating and corner cutting is just part of the culture with no consequences -- China?

[pellius]

Olive Oil:

A recent study has confirmed over 70% of olive oil sold in the USA markets is fake, cut with other oils like peanut, canola and sunflower. The same brands are sold all over the world, including UK, France, Italy and Spain.
A similar scandal was brought into attention in Italy in 2008, when several police officers were involved in the breakdown known as operation Golden Oil.  It was disclosed that 85 oil farms were mixing chlorophyll, chemical colourants and flavours with sunflower and canola to the olive oil, in order to have a cheaper product. Of course the results were awful and the healthy properties of the olive oil were lost.
California University has recently undertaken a study on 124 olive oils and found that over 70% of samples failed the tests.

Failed:
Mezzetta
Carapelli
Pompeian
Primadonna
Mazola
Sasso
Colavita
Star
Antica Badia
Whole Foods
Safeway
Felippo Berio
Coricelli
Bertolli

It’s not possible to tell how pure the oil is just by looking at it. However you can do your own simple test at home: store the bottle in the fridge and, if after 30min it gets solid, it means it is pure and has monounsaturated fats. If it stays liquid, then it’s cut with other cheaper oils.
As there are other ways of cutting the oil (for example mixing new oil with old oil from the previous years) this test would not guarantee the product we are using is a good quality oil.

How about posting a source. And how does that not apply to everything? How do you tell "just by looking at it"  that you have real butter? How do you know that that ground beef really contains only 10% fat and not 15%? How do you know you are really getting a gallon of gas everytime you fill up your tank. How do know those Papa Johns tomatoes come from the US and not from Mexico like they claim?

By your own admission, you have all your food provided for you. Food meant to fed hundreds of people at a time. Buffets are not known for top or the top quality. When makes you think you are getting pure, unadulterated products that you insist upon?

[Zillotch]

whole food is the way to go... skip the bcaa's and put that money towards anavar

[pellius]

There was a time when I did an experiment on protein shakes. I ate four meals a day with three of them being shakes with 40 grams of protein. The powders I used varied but it would mostly be the store brands of Vitamin World and Vitamin Shopped, deviating only if something was on sale. I decided to just stop with the protein powders. We've survived as a species without them and no reason I can't now. I did this for about two months before I had my blood test. My total protein reading was always on the upper end though mostly a bit over. This time my total protein got a low reading, below the normal reference range.

Because I eat at McDonald's twice a week I may seem very lackadaisical in regard to diet and nutrition. But I've been interested in this subject since I was a teen. Over the decades I've found that it's just not so complicated. McDonald's ground beef, pickles, lettuce... is not any more junk than what you find in the grocery store. "Organic" is bulls hit. Gluten-free is bullshit and only applies to a very small minority. Smaller than the people who are sensitive to peanuts. Low fat -- bullshit. There's really only a few simple rules. The most important is don't overeat. That is the single rule that virtually everybody breaks. People are constantly eating. Constantly. Next, minimize as much as possible sugar. Get enough fiber. At least 10 grams per meal. Use supplements if you have to. Keep things moving. Seems like everyone nowadays over 35 is "backed-up". You see it in that little pooch below their belly button even if they are not fat. Protein is the most important micronutrient. Keep it about 50/50 with carbs but less if you have a tendency to put on weight. Just drink water. Never got why people have evolved to a point where they can only drink soda or some kind of flavored drink. There are others like essential fats (OLIVE OIL, Omega 3...) but I've gone on too long anyway and it's been my experience that when it comes to food, most are not going to change. It's ingrained in them. And they are destined to be fat and insulin resistant.  

[pellius]

I never expect anything on the market to be 100% accurate. But everything in life is a matter of degrees. Sure they contain some amounts of toxins like arsenic, lead, mercury. Broccoli contains arsenic, water contains lead, fish contains mercury. Go4it makes it sound like protein products are utterly worthless. Like they don't even contain protein and if they do it's in such small amounts to make it worthless. Does this comport with common sense? Someone who is serious about wanting to start a nutritional company is going to try to find a way to make an inferior product. To make a whey protein supplement just a fraction of the whey they claim?

The supplement market is watched. We're not some third world country where anything goes. A month never went buy when  I worked at Vitamin Shoppe that something had to be pulled because it didn't meet label claims. But even when you look at these claims the amount of error didn't send me into a rage. If a brand claims 30 grams of protein per serving and it's 10% off that's just 3 grams of protein. And with some of the label claims that were deemed inaccurate, there were some that were overdosed. Mass production for things like protein powder isn't produced with mathematical precision nor do they need to be.


https://medium.com/@anthonyroberts/seventy-protein-powder-lab-tests-bpi-mhp-muscle-meds-weider-and-more-fail-e6775135f143

https://labdoor.com/rankings/protein

[Hypertrophy]

I never expect anything on the market to be 100% accurate. But everything in life is a matter of degrees. Sure they contain some amounts of toxins like arsenic, lead, mercury. Broccoli contains arsenic, water contains lead, fish contains mercury. Go4it makes it sound like protein products are utterly worthless. Like they don't even contain protein and if they do it's in such small amounts to make it worthless. Does this comport with common sense? Someone who is serious about wanting to start a nutritional company is going to try to find a way to make an inferior product. To make a whey protein supplement just a fraction of the whey they claim?

The supplement market is watched. We're not some third world country where anything goes. A month never went buy when  I worked at Vitamin Shoppe that something had to be pulled because it didn't meet label claims. But even when you look at these claims the amount of error didn't send me into a rage. If a brand claims 30 grams of protein per serving and it's 10% off that's just 3 grams of protein. And with some of the label claims that were deemed inaccurate, there were some that were overdosed. Mass production for things like protein powder isn't produced with mathematical precision nor do they need to be.


https://medium.com/@anthonyroberts/seventy-protein-powder-lab-tests-bpi-mhp-muscle-meds-weider-and-more-fail-e6775135f143

https://labdoor.com/rankings/protein

I've switched to Fairlife milk these days as my protein source, along with the regular chicken/fish/eggs.. Lactose free, filtered and 13g/cup. No need for whey protein
supplements.
fairlife.com

[Ropo]

Cool of Mantula, how is life in Finlandistan 

At least here average people have some intelligence, which absent is quite obvious among you guys. This thread is brilliant example about the wisdom of the getbiggers. Fuck facts, let's live by the beliefs and bullshit, it will be good..

[Kwon3]

At least here average people have some intelligence, which absent is quite obvious among you guys. This thread is brilliant example about the wisdom of the getbiggers. Fuck facts, let's live by the beliefs and bullshit, it will be good..

The U.S. wasn't founded on facts and rationality. It was based on beliefs and dreams. The bill of rights and the constitution were written as idealistic, even utopian goals for the future, not current or actual political or social mores that prevailed anywhere else in the civilized world. It was a repudiation of everything going on in Europe except for religion. That was and remains stronger here than anywhere else save jungle and desert countries.

You end up being slightly wonky in the head if you live here, because everything is so bright, loud, extreme, politically and socially divided, fast, sprawling/huge, shinier and more intense than any other country. A not insignificant proportion of immigrants from many countries unfamiliar with these truisms, who came to America from lands obviously not related to it, either left within 2 years of arriving or went insane somehow. Americans are unique in the world for how they see the rest of the world and their own purpose within in.

[IroNat]

Snopes checked out the "fake" olive oil controversy.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/olive-foil/

'WHAT'S TRUE

Testing carried out in 2008 and 2010 reported that some popular olive oil brands did not meet the criteria to be labeled as "extra virgin."

WHAT'S FALSE

Tests did not show that 69% of the olive oil sold in the U.S. is made wholly or primarily from something other than olives.

ORIGIN

In early March 2015, an article titled “Fake Olive Oil: What You Need to Know [Now]” began circulating via social media, focusing on the health benefits of olive oil and making the claim that 69% of store-bought olive oils are “probably fake.”

Predictably the claim was well-circulated among health buffs, as olive oil is prized for its status as a heart-healthy food. The prospect of counterfeit olive oil caused many diners to wonder what might be lurking in their bottles of Bertolli and whether there was cause for concern over adulterants and impurities.

Given the wording of that article, it was difficult to determine how a study might identify a specific proportion (not “about 70%”, but precisely 69%) of store-bought olive oil, yet only arrive at the partial conclusion that the referenced percentage of oils was “probably fake”:'

"While tests carried out on olive oil between 2008 and 2010 revealed that many store-vended oils did not meet the criteria set by regulatory agencies for the “extra virgin” label, the testing did not determine that the oils were “fake” in the sense of not being made from olives."

[IroNat]

Now you answer my question: how comfortable do you feel using hormones not made in a pharmacy, with literally zero quality control, using products from a country notorious for poor quality control and where cheating and corner cutting is just part of the culture with no consequences -- China?

Oh my!

Next we'll be talking about "fake natties".

[pellius]

Snopes checked out the "fake" olive oil controversy.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/olive-foil/

'WHAT'S TRUE

Testing carried out in 2008 and 2010 reported that some popular olive oil brands did not meet the criteria to be labeled as "extra virgin."

WHAT'S FALSE

Tests did not show that 69% of the olive oil sold in the U.S. is made wholly or primarily from something other than olives.

ORIGIN

In early March 2015, an article titled “Fake Olive Oil: What You Need to Know [Now]” began circulating via social media, focusing on the health benefits of olive oil and making the claim that 69% of store-bought olive oils are “probably fake.”

Predictably the claim was well-circulated among health buffs, as olive oil is prized for its status as a heart-healthy food. The prospect of counterfeit olive oil caused many diners to wonder what might be lurking in their bottles of Bertolli and whether there was cause for concern over adulterants and impurities.

Given the wording of that article, it was difficult to determine how a study might identify a specific proportion (not “about 70%”, but precisely 69%) of store-bought olive oil, yet only arrive at the partial conclusion that the referenced percentage of oils was “probably fake”:'

"While tests carried out on olive oil between 2008 and 2010 revealed that many store-vended oils did not meet the criteria set by regulatory agencies for the “extra virgin” label, the testing did not determine that the oils were “fake” in the sense of not being made from olives."

Yes, and with all these claims you have to ask yourself does this comport with common sense. Why would an established company start intentionally turning out fake products?
They know that reputation is everything and once you lose it it's a tough road to get it back. Of course, there are always going to be issues in production and things get royally fucked up -- even turning out stuff that is practically poison. But those are recalled and the situation resolved. The idea that in this day and age, where things are so closely watch, that any legit company would think they could pull something like this over the public and not get caught. This is not to say that many will cut corners if they think they can get away with it. The MHP "Up Your Mass" was originally a great product I use to consume eagerly for years but then they started changing it. Same packaging but an entirely different product. Suddenly the fiber that came from oats and barley were gone and the fiber content went from 15 grams/serving to something like 3 grams and the sugar increased from just to few grams to something like 20 or 30. More soy protein was substituted for whey. It was a slow transition and as the price stayed the same the quality got lower and lower.

So I'm saying anybody is a saint. A business always wants to maximize profits. You just have to keep a sharp eye on them.

[Go 4 It]

Very comfortable. Been consuming these products, as well as 100 of millions of others, without ill effects. Just because you are being sued does not mean you are guilty.

You are grossly exaggerating the issue. These products have third-party testing constantly. And, yes, some are crap. Just like in EVERY single industry. My cousin is a nurse at Castle hospital and they use a liquid whey protein supplement for their bariatric patients. And they give a list of supplements they have to buy during their recovery. If everything was crap there would be serious consequences. Reputation is everything in this business and if you are in it for the long haul there is not a huge incentive to just turn out complete garbage. Cutting corners, I'm sure. Just turning out a worthless product. That's not how a business is run.

So, again I answered your question directly and honestly. Yes, I feel very comfortable using name brand nutritional products. I've been involved in this longer than you've been alive.

Now you answer my question: how comfortable do you feel using hormones not made in a pharmacy, with literally zero quality control, using products from a country notorious for poor quality control and where cheating and corner cutting is just part of the culture with no consequences -- China?

Lol, bro you see how meticulous I am about what I eat, you honestly think I would put something in my body from some random lab made in China? You obviously don't know me and how much I value the quality of my life and my health, if I were to persue going the hormonal route, I would definitely spare no expense to doing things properly with the highest quality, and under the proper guidance. 

[Hypertrophy]

So, again I answered your question directly and honestly. Yes, I feel very comfortable using name brand nutritional products. I've been involved in this longer than you've been alive.

Why do people think that because they have been doing something a long time that they are an expert or their opinion is somehow elevated?

Many name brand nutritional products made in the US over the years have been garbage- of course they have been produced under strict quality control, lol.  Just take a look at "energy bars", for example:
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/hyperbole-meets-high-tech-slick-sales-talk-and-modern-energy-bars/

[lilhawk1]

You have zero clue of what you’re talking about.....just like your politics

I make you look like shit.  You don't have a fucking clue about anything.  The fact that you support Trump and watch Fox News says it all.  Supplements are a fucking joke, always have been.  My guess is you are trying to peddle some bullshit to your supposed athletes you train. 

[lilhawk1]

I was stuck in traffic and wasn't going have time to eat. While sitting there in my car I had a couple of Quest bars. Total protein: 40 grams, sugar: 2grams, fiber: 20 grams, fat: 12 grams, calories: 340.

So where's the joke? Would I have been better off just eating nothing? If I had time to eat I would have gotten fast food like I always do. Qp w/cheese, Jumbo Jack, or Whooper with fries. Maybe go the plate lunch route and go with Chicken Katsu, with rice and mac salad. Would that be better?

It's just food, brah. Supplements when you can't have a meal. I never get why people get so worked up over nutritional supplements. There's not a single person I've ever met who are vehemently against all nutritional supplements that ever looked good or in shape. With men, they always have the belt of flab on their gut and for women, they have that bell ass and cottage cheese triceps. Of course, there are some that never use nutritional supps and look great but they aren't involved in the cult and it's a non-issue with them -- and they are young.

Mix up some liquid egg whites, oatmeal, or something else in a shake and drink it.  Much better quality than a piece of shit quest bar.  Much cheaper, and how long does it take to drink?  Shorter amount of time than eating that bar.  I guarantee you that quest bar doesn't contain what is on the label, just like most other supplements.

[lilhawk1]

And ignorance is a bliss, yes I know your kind of guys. Let me repeat, try to understand: What is the timeframe difference between food vs amino drinks, if you study how your body absorb what you throw in it? Well, you don't need to digest the amino drinks, they are absorbed much faster than your gut can process your food, and this is only real reason to use amino drinks. That is only reason why there is supplements to use, you dumb fuck. You get what you need, but faster than you can get it from food. You see, that anabolic window is a fact, so there is timeframe what and when you should do to optimize your development..

And yes, EAA is just a protein, just like an eggwhite etc. Difference is that it is protein in it's purest form, it has only amino acicds of the protein, nothing else. It means that your body will absorb it many times faster than it would take to get same amount of these aminos from food. 

The only time I would care about having EAA's or something to absorb fast is intraworkout, or post workout.  Otherwise it is not needed.  Ignorance is bliss, yeah in your case it is.  Supplements are a joke, not regulated, so who knows what the hell is in them, if anything.  Liquid egg whites, good quality food are all that is needed. 

[WOOO]

all "supplements"... every single one

Is a waste of money

eat food

be healthy

[pellius]

Lol, bro you see how meticulous I am about what I eat, you honestly think I would put something in my body from some random lab made in China? You obviously don't know me and how much I value the quality of my life and my health, if I were to persue going the hormonal route, I would definitely spare no expense to doing things properly with the highest quality, and under the proper guidance. 

Of course I don't know you. I only know a small facet of your persona that you present on this board in writing. You asked me a direct, honest and fair question and I responded in kind. No lecture about how you should know me, how I value life and health.... and I'm sure Heath and Dexer spare no expense when it comes to hormones. You know some pros, their gear comes from the same place as gym rats. There's no special market for pros where they get the good stuff. There's a special market for those with the cash.

But you still haven't answered my question and danced around it. You told me that you value the quality of your life and health, that if you used hormones you would spare no expense, use the highest quality and with proper guidance. I believe, from what little I know of you on this board, that those principles would apply to everything you do in life.

It just doesn't answer the question if you use, or have used, AAS or various peptides. I believe if you do, you would do it properly, it just that you haven't answered the question if you do.

[pellius]

Why do people think that because they have been doing something a long time that they are an expert or their opinion is somehow elevated?

Many name brand nutritional products made in the US over the years have been garbage- of course they have been produced under strict quality control, lol.  Just take a look at "energy bars", for example:
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/hyperbole-meets-high-tech-slick-sales-talk-and-modern-energy-bars/

Why? Why is experience valued and of value? I have to explain that to you? If someone has been doing MMA for 20 years versus two weeks you don't think that is a factor? Nobody said it made you an expert but experience counts and has value. There are some things you learn just by experience. I'll leave it your personal honesty and integrity to answer that question you posed.

I made it clear that the market tries to push crap on customers all the time. The very reason that literally every month we had to pull a product off the shelves for not meeting label claims. But just because some things are crap doesn't mean all things are crap. As I said, it's a constant battle. And it applies to everything you buy. From the gas you put in your car to the shirt you wear on your back.

[The Keto Kid]

Of course I don't know you. I only know a small facet of your persona that you present on this board in writing. You asked me a direct, honest and fair question and I responded in kind. No lecture about how you should know me, how I value life and health.... and I'm sure Heath and Dexer spare no expense when it comes to hormones. You know some pros, their gear comes from the same place as gym rats. There's no special market for pros where they get the good stuff. There's a special market for those with the cash.

But you still haven't answered my question and danced around it. You told me that you value the quality of your life and health, that if you used hormones you would spare no expense, use the highest quality and with proper guidance. I believe, from what little I know of you on this board, that those principles would apply to everything you do in life.

It just doesn't answer the question if you use, or have used, AAS or various peptides. I believe if you do, you would do it properly, it just that you haven't answered the question if you do.

Do you really think he's going to openly discuss his gear use? If he's using or not I could care less, one thing I will say is he has a clean look, no acne, bloat, purple face, hair loss,  possibly going to the same doc as Mike Ohearn.

[Van_Bilderass]

Lol, bro you see how meticulous I am about what I eat, you honestly think I would put something in my body from some random lab made in China? You obviously don't know me and how much I value the quality of my life and my health, if I were to persue going the hormonal route, I would definitely spare no expense to doing things properly with the highest quality, and under the proper guidance. 

So you didn't take the Cardarine? Which pharmaceutical facility made it? Do you know why research on it was halted?

You never took any hormones? Lol. Proper guidance? You mean the coach who told you to take Cardarine?

[Coach is Back!]

all "supplements"... every single one

Is a waste of money

eat food

be healthy

You’ve read not one post in this thread before this, have you?

[Van_Bilderass]

Of course I don't know you. I only know a small facet of your persona that you present on this board in writing. You asked me a direct, honest and fair question and I responded in kind. No lecture about how you should know me, how I value life and health.... and I'm sure Heath and Dexer spare no expense when it comes to hormones. You know some pros, their gear comes from the same place as gym rats. There's no special market for pros where they get the good stuff. There's a special market for those with the cash.

But you still haven't answered my question and danced around it. You told me that you value the quality of your life and health, that if you used hormones you would spare no expense, use the highest quality and with proper guidance. I believe, from what little I know of you on this board, that those principles would apply to everything you do in life.

It just doesn't answer the question if you use, or have used, AAS or various peptides. I believe if you do, you would do it properly, it just that you haven't answered the question if you do.

He is full of it, he isn't "making sure" of shit. He admitted to taking Cardarine which is a Chinese underground product, which was abandoned by pharma companies due to causing cancer in lab animals.

ALL pros use gear made by UG Chinese chemical houses, it's not pharma grade. I don't care where Go 4 It gets his gear, even if he is "scripted" it's still Chinese shit no matter what he has been told and believes.

Most pros are fucking cheap too, and would think paying for gear is beneath them so they use whatever shit is given for free.

[pellius]

Mix up some liquid egg whites, oatmeal, or something else in a shake and drink it.  Much better quality than a piece of shit quest bar.  Much cheaper, and how long does it take to drink?  Shorter amount of time than eating that bar.  I guarantee you that quest bar doesn't contain what is on the label, just like most other supplements.

I'm in my car FFS! I can't predict the traffic or anything else that may come up while I am driving. I keep bars in my car because they last forever in a pack under my seat and it's CONVENIENT! Remember what I said what was the one of the most important value in supplements? I can't keep cartons or thermos of egg whites sitting in my car. And, yes, drinking a shake is faster than eating a bar which is what I do in the morning, BUT, I'm stuck in traffic sitting in my car!  I have all the fucking time in the world! If I could, I'd be chowing down on some Orange Chicken and Moo Goo Gai Pan! And of course, nothing is EXACTLY what it purports to be. I don't know if that particular egg contains exactly 6 grams of protein or apple contains x grams of fructose. I get that. I don't care!

You don't like supps. I get it. What I don't get is how so many people are bother by what other people eat, whether it's Mcds or Whey protein, of bcaas.

[pellius]

all "supplements"... every single one

Is a waste of money

eat food

be healthy

How old are you and can you post a pic.