Author Topic: Another HIT vs Volume discussion.  (Read 3504 times)

oldtimer1

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Another HIT vs Volume discussion.
« on: December 07, 2018, 11:02:36 AM »
The old volume vs intensity argument. If intensity was the magic bullet and the most effective way to train the majority of bodybuilders would be training that way. The majority train with volume. Arthur Jones would find a volume trainer and invite them down to Florida then take credit for their success. When Viator was no long on Jones's pay roll he trained with volume.  His third place in the Olympia was by far his best ever physique. He was doing volume and a lot of it. Joe Means is featured throughout  the Nautilus book and was another bodybuilder invited down to Florida. For his contests he did use Nautilus along with conventional weights but he used volume. Sergio is not a product of Nautilus. He spent a couple of weeks down in Florida and was highly paid for that. He trained with a ton of volume prior to Arthur Jones and after Arthur Jones. Even Mentzer in his best condition trained 4 to 6 work sets a body part. The only ones I can see that truly embraced the Jones intensity were guys like Yates, Cardillo (Mr. Canada) and Dave Mastorakis. Here's where someone says they saw the Yates tape and he did plenty of sets. Nope, one set to failure. Those are warm up. You don't take 410lbs for inclines with no warm up sets. 

There is no true definition of high intensity. For some it's one set to failure. For someone like Lee Labrada it's three sets to failure per exercise. Some say train a body part once every 7 to 10 days and others say 2 to 3 times a week. 3 times a week is going back to Darden's many early books. No, we don't have training facts in bodybuilding. We have training theories. If we had training facts we would all doing the same training routine using the same exercises barring injuries and sets. If intensity was the magic bullet then we would do the most intense training we could do. It would be something like 4 sets of one rep per exercise. Highest intensity achieved. Olympic and Power lifters do not train to failure every training session. They cycle their training.

Let me preface what I wrote is that I have been heavily influenced by Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer. When Jones burst onto the scene I read everything he wrote. Ironman Magazine was his platform. I still have his original book that was put together with staples to hold the papers. I still train with low sets. I remember back in the day being selected from my job to go through a high intensity workout by a guy who owned a pure Nautilus and MedX gym. I still think he was trying to kill me. It was a whole body routine. One set to failure and beyond. No warm up. No rest between exercises. I nearly threw up and down on the floor at the end knowing I couldn't stand. There was no way anyone could train like that on a regular basis hence his suggested once every 5 day training session.

My empirical conclusions based on over 40 years of training. Volume has merit. A lot of merit. It's not easy as HIT followers claim. It's like a 400 meter runner saying to a marathoner your training is easy. The 400 meter runner knows he trains more intensely but he would be in world of hurt trying to train like a good marathoner.

My conclusions it that  a bodybuider's muscle is a result of muscular endurance training. This is not to be confused with aerobic cardio training. Yes, two sets is better than one set. Three sets is also better than two but it's better fractionally. You reach a point of diminishing returns. I think all bodybuilders would be better off cycling their their training between volume and intensity.  Many volume trainers use heavy days as their concession to intensity.  Arnold wrote many times he would take an exercise like a bench or deadlift to it's one rep max on a heavy day.

In the end this is nothing but a hobby for the majority of us. Train the way you feel is most effective and gives you the most satisfaction. To say you found the most effective way to train and all should follow your lead is foolish. Like I said before. We have training theories and not training facts. A hard core work ethic will take you far with the only limitations is of course genetic predisposition. On a side note be wary of training advice from steroid users. Consider what they look like if they are clean for 6 months then reevaluate their advice.

On a side note Arthur Jones did not invent the cam he used on his machine. He did not invent pre exhaust. He did not invent selectorized plates on his machine. Not saying this as a dig. His achievements stand on their own.

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Another HIT vs Volume discussion.
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2018, 01:29:57 PM »
I do 2-3 weeks volume and then 1 week of HIT full body.  Keeps the mind fresh and the body off balance.  It's kind of similar to Westside Barbell's Louie Simmons staggered routines with speed of rep fluctuations as well.

Royalty

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Re: Another HIT vs Volume discussion.
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2019, 03:42:51 AM »
If you donít have sets/reps and exercises down by now... after all these years, you never will. You wasted too much time on Getbig. You knows itís true.

You posted a wall of text because you are bored. This board is your social life.

Tbomzisback!

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Re: Another HIT vs Volume discussion.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2019, 06:06:16 PM »
Layne Norton has some good stuff to say on this subject.

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Rmj11

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Re: Another HIT vs Volume discussion.
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2019, 03:40:35 AM »
The old volume vs intensity argument. If intensity was the magic bullet and the most effective way to train the majority of bodybuilders would be training that way. The majority train with volume. Arthur Jones would find a volume trainer and invite them down to Florida then take credit for their success. When Viator was no long on Jones's pay roll he trained with volume.  His third place in the Olympia was by far his best ever physique. He was doing volume and a lot of it. Joe Means is featured throughout  the Nautilus book and was another bodybuilder invited down to Florida. For his contests he did use Nautilus along with conventional weights but he used volume. Sergio is not a product of Nautilus. He spent a couple of weeks down in Florida and was highly paid for that. He trained with a ton of volume prior to Arthur Jones and after Arthur Jones. Even Mentzer in his best condition trained 4 to 6 work sets a body part. The only ones I can see that truly embraced the Jones intensity were guys like Yates, Cardillo (Mr. Canada) and Dave Mastorakis. Here's where someone says they saw the Yates tape and he did plenty of sets. Nope, one set to failure. Those are warm up. You don't take 410lbs for inclines with no warm up sets.  

There is no true definition of high intensity. For some it's one set to failure. For someone like Lee Labrada it's three sets to failure per exercise. Some say train a body part once every 7 to 10 days and others say 2 to 3 times a week. 3 times a week is going back to Darden's many early books. No, we don't have training facts in bodybuilding. We have training theories. If we had training facts we would all doing the same training routine using the same exercises barring injuries and sets. If intensity was the magic bullet then we would do the most intense training we could do. It would be something like 4 sets of one rep per exercise. Highest intensity achieved. Olympic and Power lifters do not train to failure every training session. They cycle their training.

Let me preface what I wrote is that I have been heavily influenced by Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer. When Jones burst onto the scene I read everything he wrote. Ironman Magazine was his platform. I still have his original book that was put together with staples to hold the papers. I still train with low sets. I remember back in the day being selected from my job to go through a high intensity workout by a guy who owned a pure Nautilus and MedX gym. I still think he was trying to kill me. It was a whole body routine. One set to failure and beyond. No warm up. No rest between exercises. I nearly threw up and down on the floor at the end knowing I couldn't stand. There was no way anyone could train like that on a regular basis hence his suggested once every 5 day training session.

My empirical conclusions based on over 40 years of training. Volume has merit. A lot of merit. It's not easy as HIT followers claim. It's like a 400 meter runner saying to a marathoner your training is easy. The 400 meter runner knows he trains more intensely but he would be in world of hurt trying to train like a good marathoner.

My conclusions it that  a bodybuider's muscle is a result of muscular endurance training. This is not to be confused with aerobic cardio training. Yes, two sets is better than one set. Three sets is also better than two but it's better fractionally. You reach a point of diminishing returns. I think all bodybuilders would be better off cycling their their training between volume and intensity.  Many volume trainers use heavy days as their concession to intensity.  Arnold wrote many times he would take an exercise like a bench or deadlift to it's one rep max on a heavy day.

In the end this is nothing but a hobby for the majority of us. Train the way you feel is most effective and gives you the most satisfaction. To say you found the most effective way to train and all should follow your lead is foolish. Like I said before. We have training theories and not training facts. A hard core work ethic will take you far with the only limitations is of course genetic predisposition. On a side note be wary of training advice from steroid users. Consider what they look like if they are clean for 6 months then reevaluate their advice.

On a side note Arthur Jones did not invent the cam he used on his machine. He did not invent pre exhaust. He did not invent selectorized plates on his machine. Not saying this as a dig. His achievements stand on their own.


If youíre going to do volume then do it. You have to get your head out of that intensity mindset. Volume is intense too. Why keep doing hit if you keep burning out and keep thinking youíll look better on volume? Instead of thinking about it, do it. Volume is what built the best bodies in the world. Fact. Even Mentzer, Yates, Viator etc did high volume to build their physiques. All that hit guff they promoted came after they had built their bodies with more volume. Hit is very limiting. It doesnít have much variety to change things if you hit a plateau which is what you are doing every 3 weeks. With volume thereís lots of room to tweak such as doing 6x6, 8x8, 10x10, 12x12 or 6x10, 8x10, 10x8, 12x6, 5x8-12, 4x6-12 etc plus supersets, tri-sets, giant sets, etc. Many ways to do volume and many have had success on it. Even if drug free. Just do it.