Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit

[wes]

Was there a Golds downtown? I remember training at one gym in Springfield in he late 80's then a warehouse gym opened in Ludlow. The guy who won teenage nationals worked the desk in Ludlow and I could swear Vic or some other guy who really popped was working at Golds.

No the Golds was and still is to my knowledge in West Springfield.

Teen age Nats winner as well as Mr America,USA,and Nabba Mr. Universe winner Matt Dufresne owns a Golds nerar Ludlow but it is still located in Springfield.

[Van_Bilderass]

I think I said in this thread that O-lifts are overrated for sport, there are other more efficient ways to get an athlete just as if not more explosive. The only reason why I teach and implement o-lifts in my own schools program is for time constraints but if done properly, you get more bang for your buck when I have 45-50 athletes in my weight room and then all I program is what I would say are the two most important lifts, Power Clean and Clean Pulls.

I don't do 1RM's because I'm looking for more efficiency while trying to perfect technique. I never go beyond 5 reps staying with in the atp/cp energy system.

As to your point about practicing your chosen sport for movement, you're dead on. You CANNOT mimic a sport-specific movement in a weight room. A strength and conditioning mentor of mine said it perfectly, "The weight room is the facilitator to movement"

Our job is to get the athlete stronger in all areas (joints, stabilizers, flexibility, etc) that allows the athlete to move better, with power on the field with limited to no injuries. As far as speed (I personally think I have one of the best speed programs in the country per position) my philosophy has always been speed starts in the weight room, the technique is perfected on the field (movement)

We move, in general, multi-joint and never in isolation. When I, for example, program a bicep curl, it's usually in the way of a hammer curl, not for aesthetics but rather to help keep the elbows healthy. I won't back squat a QB with a regular straight bar because I want to protect his external rotation so we either us a yoke or front squat with a cross grip instead of a clean grip to protect his wrists. I always pair a pre-hab exercise with a main lift...

ex: 1A) Back Squat
      1B) TKE (Terminal knee extension)

Like I said (and you) you can't duplicate a sport movement in the weight room.

Thanks. Sounds good.

[pellius]

Arthur Jones was a frail little man most of his life. Tired of seeing a picture of him for a very brief time in his life where he had some muscle. He was under 150lbs most of his life. He couldn't run around a block without getting tired when he was past 40 I bet.

 Many of his machines were outstanding. Just a couple of notes. He didn't invent the cam for variable resistance on an exercise machine. The guy's name escapes me but when it comes to me I will alter this post. He didn't invent pre exhaust. Kennedy was the first to write of it. He didn't come up with the idea for selectorized plates for his Nautilus. It was Bill Pearl who told him to put it on his machines like the ones on Universal machines.

 One thing for sure the body does not work in isolation of body parts. It works as a systemic unit.  Doing a clean and jerk is far more beneficial to your body for increasing athletic attributes like speed, power and strength than training muscles in attempted isolation. The problem with Nautilus is everything is exercising seated and in isolation.  When you do something as simple as a barbell curl your calves are tensing and adjusting to keep your balance. Your thighs are firing for the same reason. Your back is working to keep you upright and stabilized along with other muscles. Yes, your bicep is getting worked.

 I also disagree with Jones saying body weight exercises are worthless.  You turn the most built steroid guy into a mess quick with 20 minute body weight exercise session.

What are you talking about? Jones was hardly a frail man but extremely robust and live a varied adventurous life. You don't spend two year cruising Africa hunting and filming for his TV show.

He had a patent on his elliptical cam and never claimed to have invented pre exhaust training. I doubt he needed Bill Pearl to tell him about selectorized plates. They were not a rare sight.

Whether "stabilizing muscles", i.e., balancing, a physical skill and ability, is enhancing the stimulation of the targetted muscle is not entirely clear.

[pellius]

What if practising your chosen sport is enough to coordinate the movements etc? I.e. you lift weights only to get muscles stronger period. I know some coaches do not believe in mimicking the athletes chosen sport during weight lifting, even with regard to exercise duration, you train low reps even if the athlete's sport is pretty endurance based

I'd like The Coache's thoughts on this. Should weightlifting movements mimic the sport's movements to have good transfer?

The way you so tactfully present your questions betray what you already know and once again demonstrating why you are probably the most knowledgeable person on this board regarding these subjects.

Arthur Jones was very adamant in not performing resistance type training in a fashion that mimics an athletic movement or technique. In fact, he argued that the closer, the more similar, it simulated the athletic technique the worse it is.

I forgot what term he used but it was something to do with neurological confusion. For example, I had three different pin numbers for various computers/ATMs. They were all four digits but two of them differed by just one digit whereas the third was completely different. I was always confusing the two similar ones. Only when I changed it to something completely different was I able to get them all straight.

Strength training is, and should be, completely separate from skill training.

[Hypertrophy]

The way you so tactfully present your questions betray what you already know and once again demonstrating why you are probably the most knowledgeable person on this board regarding these subjects.

Arthur Jones was very adamant in not performing resistance type training in a fashion that mimics an athletic movement or technique. In fact, he argued that the closer, the more similar, it simulated the athletic technique the worse it is.

I forgot what term he used but it was something to do with neurological confusion. For example, I had three different pin numbers for various computers/ATMs. They were all four digits but two of them differed by just one digit whereas the third was completely different. I was always confusing the two similar ones. Only when I changed it to something completely different was I able to get them all straight.

Strength training is, and should be, completely separate from skill training.

I’m in total agreement Pellius. I’m a cyclist and weight train to help my sprint. The best sprinters on the cycling track (velodrome) in the world are currently UK riders. They practice skills on the bike and strength train doing heavy squats in the gym.

[Vince B]

Serious question, have you ever been tested for any age related mental impairments?

I doubt many here have ever had an original idea about training, gym equipment or exercise physiology. What we have here is the incapacity of the Flotsam to entertain new theories. Thus, they cling to their old methods like drowning people cling to whatever is floating nearby. Confusion and chaos is all they know.

[Hypertrophy]

I doubt many here have ever had an original idea about training, gym equipment or exercise physiology. What we have here is the incapacity of the Flotsam to entertain new theories. Thus, they cling to their old methods like drowning people cling to whatever is floating nearby. Confusion and chaos is all they know.

Vince,

A lot of us rely on peer reviewed research to determine what is an effective training methodology. Where is the experimental data and peer reviewed analysis for your hypertrophy theory?

[chaos]

I doubt many here have ever had an original idea about training, gym equipment or exercise physiology. What we have here is the incapacity of the Flotsam to entertain new theories. Thus, they cling to their old methods like drowning people cling to whatever is floating nearby. Confusion and chaos is all they know.

I'm going to take it that's a "no"

[The Scott]

I doubt many here have ever had an original idea about training, gym equipment or exercise physiology. What we have here is the incapacity of the Flotsam to entertain new theories. Thus, they cling to their old methods like drowning people cling to whatever is floating nearby. Confusion and chaos is all they know.

Do you ever think before typing this silliness?  Your over-complicated bicep supinator machine is the answer to a question you alone posited.  It is not as though you are totally without merit because as with all of us here, sometimes you do make sense and have posts that are actually quite good! 

The quote above is not one of those times.

[Vince B]

Vince,

A lot of us rely on peer reviewed research to determine what is an effective training methodology. Where is the experimental data and peer reviewed analysis for your hypertrophy theory?

That is the trouble. If those peers are not bodybuilders I doubt the research has much value. Show me any research done on maximizing hypertrophy.

[Vince B]

Do you ever think before typing this silliness?  Your over-complicated bicep supinator machine is the answer to a question you alone posited.  It is not as though you are totally without merit because as with all of us here, sometimes you do make sense and have posts that are actually quite good! 

The quote above is not one of those times.

Please explain how to simplify a biceps machine that has resistance in two degrees of freedom?

[Vince B]

Arthur Jones as well as any other machine maker (including Vince Basil) has a financial motive to convince people machines are superior even though there are no examples they can use to prove their theories.

Arthur Jones definitely tried to convince everyone in the Iron game that his machines alone were superior to anything else used for size and strength.

I can tell you that the history of machines in gyms shows a gradual improvement in many ways such as pivot points. If the designers are not bodybuilders I doubt they will come up with designs that feel great for most bodybuilders. Take the pec deck. The Nautilus version suited individuals with wide shoulders. I have yet to see a pec deck that allows automatic adjustment so that the pivot point is in the correct position. What we find is that most manufacturers copy each other so that there is progress in making effective and functionally correct machines. There is still a way to go before excellent all round is achieved.

[The Scott]

Please explain how to simplify a biceps machine that has resistance in two degrees of freedom?

Please explain why anyone should give an intercourse.  I can do BB or DB curls, Preacher Bench Curls, incline DB curls, strict or cheat curls, hammer curls, reverse grip curls, high reps/low weight, low reps/high weight, Nautilus machine curls, ad nauseam.  It ain't rocket science but you know that.

It's up to you to "sell" your ideas, not I nor anyone else here.  I find you device to be over-complicated and unnecessary.  Apparently a great many others do too.

If that truth hurts perhaps it is because your skin is thin but your skull is thick?   You are far from stupid, but you're downright closing in on insufferable arrogance.

[chaos]

That is the trouble. If those peers are not bodybuilders I doubt the research has much value. Show me any research done on maximizing hypertrophy.

Poor old man

[tres_taco_combo]

What are you talking about? Jones was hardly a frail man but extremely robust and live a varied adventurous life. You don't spend two year cruising Africa hunting and filming for his TV show.

He had a patent on his elliptical cam and never claimed to have invented pre exhaust training. I doubt he needed Bill Pearl to tell him about selectorized plates. They were not a rare sight.

Whether "stabilizing muscles", i.e., balancing, a physical skill and ability, is enhancing the stimulation of the targetted muscle is not entirely clear.

yea he was a well off businessman who also had a thing for bbing

[SF1900]

Vince Basile is nuttier than a fruit bar.

[pellius]

I’m in total agreement Pellius. I’m a cyclist and weight train to help my sprint. The best sprinters on the cycling track (velodrome) in the world are currently UK riders. They practice skills on the bike and strength train doing heavy squats in the gym.

My brother is an avid hardcore cyclist and competes regularly. He's a Colonel in the Army and currently stationed in Germany. I don't know squat about cycling but here's his bike.

[pellius]

Arthur Jones definitely tried to convince everyone in the Iron game that his machines alone were superior to anything else used for size and strength.

I can tell you that the history of machines in gyms shows a gradual improvement in many ways such as pivot points. If the designers are not bodybuilders I doubt they will come up with designs that feel great for most bodybuilders. Take the pec deck. The Nautilus version suited individuals with wide shoulders. I have yet to see a pec deck that allows automatic adjustment so that the pivot point is in the correct position. What we find is that most manufacturers copy each other so that there is progress in making effective and functionally correct machines. There is still a way to go before excellent all round is achieved.

Have you ever tried the Medx machines? Virtually frictionless. No cable or pulleys but pushes from the bottom. Another Arthur Jones creation. Another work of genius.

[oldschoolfan]

Have you ever tried the Medx machines? Virtually frictionless. No cable or pulleys but pushes from the bottom. Another Arthur Jones creation. Another work of genius.

pellius  you are right i got to work out on them a couple of times i swear the medx  chest press is the best chest machine i ever got to use arthur jones  and his son gary are literally behind all the great exercise machines out there.

[Humble Narcissist]

The way you so tactfully present your questions betray what you already know and once again demonstrating why you are probably the most knowledgeable person on this board regarding these subjects.

Arthur Jones was very adamant in not performing resistance type training in a fashion that mimics an athletic movement or technique. In fact, he argued that the closer, the more similar, it simulated the athletic technique the worse it is.

I forgot what term he used but it was something to do with neurological confusion. For example, I had three different pin numbers for various computers/ATMs. They were all four digits but two of them differed by just one digit whereas the third was completely different. I was always confusing the two similar ones. Only when I changed it to something completely different was I able to get them all straight.

Strength training is, and should be, completely separate from skill training.

So all Major League Baseball players who use a doughnut at the end of the bat for warm up and golfers who warm up with weighted clubs are mistaken in their exercise methods?

[milone79]

Arnold and Lou had huge chests that would be impressive even today. Not anybody else stands out. I think the pecs don't look as big because the delts and arms are so huge. Also, the quads are way more massive on more bbers than ever before and less bbers squat than ever before. Platz-like quads are pretty common now.

How come this free weight theory doesn't hold for arms, delts and quads?

I don't know why tension from a barbell would be more effective than tension from a Hammer strength.

BULLSHIT!!!!!!!! Nubret, Fox, Coe, Franco, just to name a few more but I could go on and on all had tremendous pecs....your argument is invalid!!

[Dave D]

That is the trouble. If those peers are not bodybuilders I doubt the research has much value. Show me any research done on maximizing hypertrophy.

Classic!

Here's an educated body builder who's spent whole life in the "industry" building equipment and touting his theory on hypertrophy for 30 years, the last 10 of which were spent online arguing with everyone who asks questions, and at no point did he ever take 10 people and test his theory to conclusion.

Only on Getbig......

[chaos]

Classic!

Here's an educated body builder who's spent whole life in the "industry" building equipment and touting his theory on hypertrophy for 30 years, the last 10 of which were spent online arguing with everyone who asks questions, and at no point did he ever take 10 people and test his theory to conclusion.

Only on Getbig......

He can't name a single person that has used his contraption and had results from it. But he's old as fuck so I can't be too hard on him.

[Dave D]

He can't name a single person that has used his contraption and had results from it. But he's old as fuck so I can't be too hard on him.

It's so odd. Vince obviously is intelligent but I dont understand why he hasn't spent the time to prove his theory.

[wes]

Key word being "theory" !!