New York Pro Fitness Pre-Judging / Finals

[Shannon_Meteraud]

Just wanted to clear up that JM gets 0% of any winnings.  And also wanted to say that I think you can still go to Bodybuilding.com to see the online coverage of the show.  They would still have the routine round up-so you can judge for yourself on who YOU think should place where in this subjective sport. 

Now being a JM "girl" you have my permission to bash me like normal. Just please be gentle -I'm 6mos pregnant.

[JKDMan]

Just wanted to clear up that JM gets 0% of any winnings.  And also wanted to say that I think you can still go to Bodybuilding.com to see the online coverage of the show.  They would still have the routine round up-so you can judge for yourself on who YOU think should place where in this subjective sport. 

Now being a JM "girl" you have my permission to bash me like normal. Just please be gentle -I'm 6mos pregnant.

Yeah, be nice to Shannon, or you'll have to deal with me. 
 

[MrsQ]

I have read this thread with peaked interest, as I too attended the NY Pro and left with a WTF feeling.  I tried to brush it off as subjectivity and the nature of the beast, but when I saw the routine scores, well...I think I threw up in my mouth a little.

As far as viewing the routines in this "subjective" sport, I would like to bring up the point that there are (and correct me if I am wrong) 6 cumpulsory moves that are to be included in the 45 second routines, and should be in their 2 minutes.  Well, objectively speaking, how do you reward any competitors who:

1. Cannot "high kick" higher than 90 degrees.
2. Tap down on their straddle and L or Pike holds
3. Cannot perform a toe touch
4. Cannot complete one or both splits
5. Can barely squeak out a 1 arm push-up

I think that it is plain to see that some of these basic functions were not executed by many of the high placing competitors.  People rest on the defense that the sport is subjective, and I do believe that each persons image of the best physique can vary, along with judgements on performance style in a routine.  I will say with conviction though that cumpulsory strength and flexibility moves are cut and dry.  It is quite obvious that although these judges may be proficient in bodybuilding, they obviously are not experienced enough to judge a fitness competition.

I would like to add that none of what occured is the fault of any competitors, and everyone is out to do their best in what I think is a great sport.  It is just a big fat shame that any win should be clouded with such doubt, and for that I blame both the judges and promoters.

[CQ]

I have read this thread with peaked interest, as I too attended the NY Pro and left with a WTF feeling.  I tried to brush it off as subjectivity and the nature of the beast, but when I saw the routine scores, well...I think I threw up in my mouth a little.

As far as viewing the routines in this "subjective" sport, I would like to bring up the point that there are (and correct me if I am wrong) 6 cumpulsory moves that are to be included in the 45 second routines, and should be in their 2 minutes.  Well, objectively speaking, how do you reward any competitors who:

1. Cannot "high kick" higher than 90 degrees.
2. Tap down on their straddle and L or Pike holds
3. Cannot perform a toe touch
4. Cannot complete one or both splits
5. Can barely squeak out a 1 arm push-up

I think that it is plain to see that some of these basic functions were not executed by many of the high placing competitors.  People rest on the defense that the sport is subjective, and I do believe that each persons image of the best physique can vary, along with judgements on performance style in a routine.  I will say with conviction though that cumpulsory strength and flexibility moves are cut and dry.  It is quite obvious that although these judges may be proficient in bodybuilding, they obviously are not experienced enough to judge a fitness competition.

I would like to add that none of what occured is the fault of any competitors, and everyone is out to do their best in what I think is a great sport.  It is just a big fat shame that any win should be clouded with such doubt, and for that I blame both the judges and promoters.

Excellent post!

This was the exact same things I was saying after the Arnold. It is actually amusing as I typed practically this exact same thing - "Cannot "high kick" higher than 90 degrees."

This sport is subjective in physique yes, but realistically speaking the routine round should be easier to score. If person A's high kicks get to their waist, and person B's kicks reach their nose - it is blatantly obvious that person B has superior high kicks. Same goes with any moves in the routine, as well as the routine in general.

Subjective can be more readily applied to figure, however in this case it wasn't 'subjectivity' it was simply horrendous judging. I have not spoken to one person who was at the show, watched the webcast, or is familar with fitness in general who disagrees.

Welcome to the board MrsQ, it is very obvious you are very knowledgable about fitness.Stick around

[Lift Studios]

I wasn't there so can't speak on the show's results but has there ever been a show where someone didn't cry politics or it was BS? It seems this is the same debate that takes place after every show, replace abc competitor with xyz competitor and we're discussing the same thing.

At least one thing seems to be consistent this time, everyone agrees Julie deserved to win and congrats to her.

[Tre]

Solid post, MrsQ, but one thing I've been saying for a long time is that there ought to be different judges for the physique and routine rounds. 

On that point, the IFBB has made an effort to recruit more judges for the fitness routines, but the reality is that there just aren't enough fitness experts willing to volunteer their services. 

It's a problem, but the federation is doing its part - they just can't find anyone willing to take on these duties other than those who are already in place.  Maybe the current group of fitness pros will be able to be more active in judging once they begin to retire, but for now, we have to rely on the judges we've got. 

Yes, they absolutely should be held accountable for their decisions, but we cannot expect a physique expert to be a fitness (routine) expert, too. 

[CQ]

I wasn't there so can't speak on the show's results but has there ever been a show where someone didn't cry politics or it was BS? It seems this is the same debate that takes place after every show, replace abc competitor with xyz competitor and we're discussing the same thing.

At least one thing seems to be consistent this time, everyone agrees Julie deserved to win and congrats to her.

I generally think this myself.

I've attended numerous pro shows, have followed fitness since it's inception [literally] and have been posting on boards for 5+ years. I have never posted anything negative, or ranted about scoring before...but in this case it was very bad.   

And normally in this threads [discounting the hater patrol on the main board, talking about the girls board] it will go both ways. No one has come on the thread and said "no, she has a great routine". That speaks volumes.

[agpro]

I would like to add that JM doesn't take any percentage of price money.  I was not at the show so can't comment on the routines or anything else.  Just would like to say congratulations to all the girls for the great job.  I feel that for a long time it did not matter how much I improved my fitness routine people will still say something negative about it.  I won because of being signed with J.M but never because I was the best athlete on that stage that night.  All we can do is get better and prove people wrong...  So anyway, Congratulations to all the fitness divas and see you all soon..

Besitos

[YouAreJoking]

Tre, do you have to constantly kiss manion's ass when the opportunity comes up?  Just accept the face this stuff is rigged.  We all know it and until recently we didn't have such obvious proof. 

Adela, comparing you and some of these other girls, not even close.  You've always had the talent.  People may argue with your placing being 1st-2nd-3rd, but no argument to you being IN the top 3.  This is a WHOLE different situation.

[MrsQ]

Thanks for the welcome guys!

I would like to start by saying that despite my discontent at the scores, I have the utmost respect for all of the women who competed last Saturday.  Each should be commended for their dedication and athleticism, and I truly don't want to sound like a typical basher who sits in the audience and plays arm-chair quarterback.  All of the 17 women are superior athletes, and deserve their position as a professional competitors.  Yes, this could turn in to another one of those sour grapes threads, but at this point it seems more to me a discussion on judging standards and inconsistencies.  I understand your frustration agpro, as many people do tend to critique competitors too harshly and that must be hurtful after all of your hard work.

However...I do believe that the general complaint in this particular thread comes down to judging standards based on the competitors fundemental skill level, not the style or performance quality.  As Tre said, (paraphrasing, forgive me) the IFBB has and must continue to put more fitness experts in its judging pool.  Maybe they don't have enough, maybe they are asking the wrong people, who knows?  

The bottom line is that it is not fair for the competitors who continually put out solid and unquestionably elite routines to be penalized due to the judges lack of experience.  I dare to say, what is so terribly hard for a bodybuilding expert to figure out when it comes to cumpulsory skills.  They could look on the NPC website and see the proper execution if they need some pointers

Heck, it's not even fair for the athlete whos placement is shadowed with doubt.  It is equally not fair for the faithful audience who pays to see a professional competition, and are met with such blatant poor judging.  In the spirit of competition you will always have your opinions on the outcome, that can happen even in a basketball game.  You will always hear grumblings from the crowd over some placements.  However, usually the talk is over whether the top 5 should have been in a different order, not mishaps to this degree.

[Just A Huge Fitness Fan]

There have been some great post on this subject!!  Keep it up!
Anyone who follows fitness knows the routine scoring has been a problem for years. Unfortunately the IFBB gives the impression they do not care enough about the sport or its athletes to make improvements. 

I love MrsQ's question from her last post, "what is so terribly hard for a bodybuilding expert to figure out when it comes to compulsory skills? They could look on the NPC website and see the proper execution if they need some pointers."  The bottom line is the fans are becoming smarter and more educated and we want more consistant judging.

What more can anyone say or prove.  Until a judge or IFBB official answers these issues directly (or change them), the fans and competitors will continue to leave fitness competitions with obvious debates.  Think about it, bodybuilding has disagreements, #2 or #3 should have beat #1 or #2, but it is rare when everyone except the judges and a few of the competitors friends know a #10 should have beat a #1 in a round.  This happens all the time in the fitness routine rounds.  And fitness has 2 routine rounds, half of the competition!  It only hurts fitness and the sport has lost some amazing talent over the years because of this major flaw.  I believe fitness was becoming very popular a few years ago however I believe the obvious routine scoring mishaps stopped that growth in its tracks.

Please listen to the fans for once and make some changes.
Best regards,
Liz       

[dacof]

Adela and Isaac are correct in saying that everyone is always quick to "cry politics" and insist that someone should have beat someone else. I usually shake my head when I read that type of post and ignore it...especially when the person was not even present at the show. However, in this instance many of the posts I believe are more concerned with the fact that this show was judged poorly...not necessarily judged with a bias to one competitor or another but just BADLY.
I was at the show and I feel very sad for the competitors. For the girls that had kick butt routines and scored poorly...what are they to think? Do they start changing things around? Hopefully they see these posts and know it was a bad judging day and they rocked. For the girls that had weak routines but scored high...what a false sense of security. To top it off, this show had a decent number of rookies. I can think of at least 2 competitors off the top of my head who made their pro debut. What an awful way to start the year off.

[Tre]

Tre, do you have to constantly kiss manion's ass when the opportunity comes up?  Just accept the fact this stuff is rigged.  We all know it and until recently we didn't have such obvious proof. 

Are you kidding? 

I've been more critical of the IFBB and NPC (includes judges, promoters, officials, etc) over the last several years than almost anyone!  You'll be hard-pressed to find too many people - using their real names and not hiding behind an alias - who've been as outspoken about the problems as I have been.

But at the same time, I always make certain to give credit where it's due. 

In this case, as has been confirmed by both Shannon and Adela, J.M. does not receive ANY of his athletes' prize money.  Contradicting your FALSE CLAIM that he takes a percentage of their winnings - which then made your 'simple logic' collapse - does not equate to kissing anyone's ass. 

I'm not denying that there have been very questionable placement decisions over the years, but making that big a jump in the placings against a different lineup with 6 weeks to prepare is NOT unheard of.  You guys are talking about this as if it's in the realm of the impossible, but 6 weeks is a long time to tighten up one's physique and to sharpen up one's routine. 

The real flaw in your argument is that you're pretty much only saying that Heidi should not have placed where she did, but you have yet to say what the top placings should've been and why. 

[YouAreJoking]

You obviously haven't seen the pictures from the show. 

[CQ]

In theory one can improve alot in 6 weeks yes. But when it comes to routine skills, you can't really build a massive amount of flexibility, triple your strength/co-ordination etc in 6 weeks. Also, the same routine is being used, which lacks any real level of difficulty. 

[hairdo]

where can you find the pictures from the show

[CQ]

There are 2/3 pics on Dave Palumbo's site.

If anyone knows of anymore let us know

[Tre]

There are 2/3 pics on Dave Palumbo's site.

If anyone knows of anymore let us know

That stage background is horribly cluttered.

Whose idea was that?

[Tre]

You obviously haven't seen the pictures from the show. 

I was not there, and I'm willing to reserve judgment on the placement decisions until I've seen some evidence.

My only point here has been that, having seen Heidi compete previously, I knew that she was pro-ready.  I also stand behind my argument that a person can go from worst to first in a matter of six weeks and that it doesn't necessarily have to be the result of any conspiracy.

If she had been marked down in New York just because she had been off in Columbus, then THAT would be a problem of judging bias, despite what some of you are arguing.  I strongly believe that every single round of judging should be treated as a separate entity (as it were) unto itself.  Round 3 in Columbus should have nothing to do with Round 4 in Columbus, let alone have anything to do with Round 1 in New York. 

Let's see what happens next.

[KGM]

We have pictures up now on Bodysport.  Just click on the New York Pro Fitness banner on our "Contest" page.

Kevin

http://bodysport.com/contests.html

[CQ]

Thanks Kevin!

Edit: There are also 100+ more here

[Picsman]

Are you kidding? 

I've been more critical of the IFBB and NPC (includes judges, promoters, officials, etc) over the last several years than almost anyone!  You'll be hard-pressed to find too many people - using their real names and not hiding behind an alias - who've been as outspoken about the problems as I have been.

Uhhhh....almost anyone?...hehehe....ohhh...that's right...I do use picsman as my board name...hmmmm wonder if I should change that?...lol...go get 'em Tre:}

[Lift Studios]

Uhhhh....almost anyone?...hehehe....ohhh...that's right...I do use picsman as my board name...hmmmm wonder if I should change that?...lol...go get 'em Tre:}

Yes, George we're all aware of your hatred towards the NPC & IFBB. Glad to see you participate in the board you love to bash as well. Mayhem must really be boring these days. 

[1Fast400]

I just looked through the pictures.  Only a few people have posted that were at that show.  I was not one of them.  However, I do find it funny that you guys keep bashing Heidi on her routine flaws.  Yet, on bodysport, there is a picture of her doing a high kick that is quite a bit higher than her waist.  Having not seen the show, I can't comment on anything else.  While shorter than most of the other girls, she came in good condition.  She has a good taper in her back without a big imbalance in her body. 

I'm only looking at a still picture, which isn't the same as being there, but it's my opinion. 

[Dina]

let us use the word constructive criticism as bashing is baseless, and in this case  fans are definitely allowed to speak their mind as long as they explain where  they are coming from.