Food Should be Free

[pellius]

It is free already, isn't it? Some people hunt deer, fill their freezer stock for a year.

Money, labor, goods, and services are essentially the same things. Money is just a convenient way to trade goods and services without using the barter system. Hunting is not free as it is very labor-intensive. Labor is the price paid for anything you want. And if you were ever, or are, a hunter, you would know, depending on the method used, hunting is not a cheap endeavor

How many people can, do, or are able to grow their own produce and hunt for their meat? We have advanced as a society where we don't have to spend all our time cultivating our food. We have a division of labor where people are able to mass produce things leaving others to mass produce other things.

[joswift]

This is what I mean when I implied you are not as thought through as you think you are. You say murder is wrong because people simply decided it was wrong. No reason given why they made this decision. You make it sound like they just tossed a coin. As you said, animals don't think it's wrong. "It's just a part of life." Aren't we animals? Why isn't killing part of "our life".

At least a more thought through person will give specifics like maybe make an evolutionary argument, such as why women are more choosy than men in picking someone to mate with. Or maybe they might say, well I wouldn't want you to murder me so I won't murder you and we come to an agreement that murder is wrong. No, you just say it's against the law. It's against the law by definition. No, it's not. There are cultures that celebrate murdering innocent people. There were, are cultures that engage in human sacrifices. In Palestine, your family gets a chunk of money and sometimes even a street named after you for killing Jews. Murder, is not defined as "unlawful killing" that's just begging the question. It's like me saying the Bible is the word of God because it says so in the Bible. Murder is the killing of an innocent person. A moral imperative. You conflate rules and laws with morality which are universal and unchanging. Inalienable human rights are very much tied to morality as they deal with absolute rights and wrongs.

BTW, your example of killing outlaws is not murder is irrelevant. Murder is the killing of an innocent person. Killing an outlaw, essentially capital punishment, is not murder.

Murder is defined as unlawful killing, its a specific word that is used and was created and made up for that very purpose, go look it up in a dictionary

I really dont know how many times you want me to give you my opinion on where morality comes from, just because you either cant grasp or wont accept my reasons is lost on me at the moment, maybe you are trolling or just dont see whats in front of you..

And where do inalienable human rights come from and who ensures you have them?

[SF1900]

Our man-made rights come from God.

Where else would they come from?

[Al Doggity]

that's just begging the question. It's like me saying the Bible is the word of God because it says so in the Bible.

You have literally done this in every post you've made arguing that morality comes from God.

You conflate rules and laws with morality which are universal and unchanging

How can you claim that morality is universal and unchanging, and in the same post reference cultures that don't view murder as immoral?  

Inalienable human rights are very much tied to morality as they deal with absolute rights and wrongs.

BTW, your example of killing outlaws is not murder is irrelevant. Murder is the killing of an innocent person. Killing an outlaw, essentially capital punishment, is not murder.

How can morality be absolute if the second statement is true?

[pellius]

Murder is defined as unlawful killing, its a specific word that is used and was created and made up for that very purpose, go look it up in a dictionary

I really dont know how many times you want me to give you my opinion on where morality comes from, just because you either cant grasp or wont accept my reasons is lost on me at the moment, maybe you are trolling or just dont see whats in front of you..

And where do inalienable human rights come from and who ensures you have them?

You can keep repeating the same thing over and over, but it's still wrong. Manslaughter is considered an unlawful killing. You fail to understand that murder is a specific subset of killing. That is the premeditated taking of a life of an innocent person. That's another example of your shallow thinking. And it still does not answer the basic question as to how do you know it's wrong.

But this post does allude as to why do you think murder is wrong. It's not because it violates some moral imperative. In your world, there is no objective morality, only opinions. So it's just your opinion. The concept of right and wrong can just as easily be called "like" and "dislike". And these are subject to whims and feelings of the time.
Saying murder is wrong or evil is just the same as saying "I dislike murder". And then we are left with moral relativism. There is no absolute morality but it's only relative to the individual. So you can have rules and laws, but that doesn't stop me from deciding to murder if I think I can get away with it and if in my opinion, I don't think it is wrong. But knowing I will have to answer to this sin and believing there is more to this life and this world then just what you see around you, it is a huge incentive to keep me on the straight and narrow. There is an especially egregious homeless person in our neighborhood that I wish was dead. If I didn't believe it was a sin I would put a bullet in his wretched head and go to sleep knowing that I, in a small way made, the world a better place. And no one would give a shit but breathe a sigh of relief. I doubt the murder investigation would be priority one for L.E.

So with moral relativism, we have what we are having so much of today: moral confusion. So, if you want a good world, then the loss of objective, absolute, universal morality will only make it worse. "Without God, all is permitted."

[pellius]

So where does morality come from? To answer this you have to start from the premise that moral good and evil really exist. They are not simply a matter of personal taste or opinion. A concept that I believe is unforgivably shallow and superficial. A very, very common trait in our ever-expanding secular society.

Unlike science which tells us what is, the laws of morality tell us what ought to be. And like physical laws they direct and order something, i.e., right human behavior. But since morality doesn't exist physically its cause has to be something that exists apart from the physical world (nature). And that "thing" or "concept" has to be above nature, or supernatural. So if you believe that morality does, in fact, exists then this proves the existence of something beyond nature and beyond man. Just as a design implies a designer (a concept you also reject) moral commands implies a moral commander. Moral laws must come from a moral lawgiver. And that's what theists call God. Therefore, whenever you appeal to morality you appeal to God whether you think so or not.

So, by your arguments and the beliefs you presented here, you do not believe that there is such a thing as moral good and moral evil. All your value system is based simply on opinions. What you like and what you dislike and those can vary wildly. And that does not make for a better world.

[joswift]

You can keep repeating the same thing over and over, but it's still wrong. Manslaughter is considered an unlawful killing. You fail to understand that murder is a specific subset of killing. That is the premeditated taking of a life of an innocent person. That's another example of your shallow thinking. And it still does not answer the basic question as to how do you know it's wrong.

But this post does allude as to why do you think murder is wrong. It's not because it violates some moral imperative. In your world, there is no objective morality, only opinions. So it's just your opinion. The concept of right and wrong can just as easily be called "like" and "dislike". And these are subject to whims and feelings of the time.
Saying murder is wrong or evil is just the same as saying "I dislike murder". And then we are left with moral relativism. There is no absolute morality but it's only relative to the individual. So you can have rules and laws, but that doesn't stop me from deciding to murder if I think I can get away with it and if in my opinion, I don't think it is wrong. But knowing I will have to answer to this sin and believing there is more to this life and this world then just what you see around you, it is a huge incentive to keep me on the straight and narrow. There is an especially egregious homeless person in our neighborhood that I wish was dead. If I didn't believe it was a sin I would put a bullet in his wretched head and go to sleep knowing that I, in a small way made, the world a better place. And no one would give a shit but breathe a sigh of relief. I doubt the murder investigation would be priority one for L.E.

So with moral relativism, we have what we are having so much of today: moral confusion. So, if you want a good world, then the loss of objective, absolute, universal morality will only make it worse. "Without God, all is permitted."

why do you keep making up your own definitions, go look them up and post me a definition that backs your own..

18 U.S. Code § 1111. Murder

(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Every murder perpetrated by poison, lying in wait, or any other kind of willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing; or committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson, escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual abuse or sexual abuse, child abuse, burglary, or robbery; or perpetrated as part of a pattern or practice of assault or torture against a child or children; or perpetrated from a premeditated design unlawfully and maliciously to effect the death of any human being other than him who is killed, is murder in the first degree.
Any other murder is murder in the second degree.

where does it say anything about an "innocent person"


and as for wishing someone dead??  What the fucks wrong with you?
Some homeless guy on the streets who wishes you no harm?
And you accuse me of being shallow and with no compassion?

And the only reason you dont put a bullet in his head is because you know they would throw you in prison.
If you knew there were no consequesnces you would off him tomorrow.

[AbrahamG]

You can keep repeating the same thing over and over, but it's still wrong. Manslaughter is considered an unlawful killing. You fail to understand that murder is a specific subset of killing. That is the premeditated taking of a life of an innocent person. That's another example of your shallow thinking. And it still does not answer the basic question as to how do you know it's wrong.

But this post does allude as to why do you think murder is wrong. It's not because it violates some moral imperative. In your world, there is no objective morality, only opinions. So it's just your opinion. The concept of right and wrong can just as easily be called "like" and "dislike". And these are subject to whims and feelings of the time.
Saying murder is wrong or evil is just the same as saying "I dislike murder". And then we are left with moral relativism. There is no absolute morality but it's only relative to the individual. So you can have rules and laws, but that doesn't stop me from deciding to murder if I think I can get away with it and if in my opinion, I don't think it is wrong. But knowing I will have to answer to this sin and believing there is more to this life and this world then just what you see around you, it is a huge incentive to keep me on the straight and narrow. There is an especially egregious homeless person in our neighborhood that I wish was dead. If I didn't believe it was a sin I would put a bullet in his wretched head and go to sleep knowing that I, in a small way made, the world a better place. And no one would give a shit but breathe a sigh of relief. I doubt the murder investigation would be priority one for L.E.

So with moral relativism, we have what we are having so much of today: moral confusion. So, if you want a good world, then the loss of objective, absolute, universal morality will only make it worse. "Without God, all is permitted."

Dude, it was just a quarter pounder with cheese.  Time to let go.   

[pellius]

why do you keep making up your own definitions, go look them up and post me a definition that backs your own..

where does it say anything about an "innocent person"


and as for wishing someone dead??  What the fucks wrong with you?
Some homeless guy on the streets who wishes you no harm?
And you accuse me of being shallow and with no compassion?

And the only reason you dont put a bullet in his head is because you know they would throw you in prison.
If you knew there were no consequesnces you would off him tomorrow.

OK, forget innocent. It includes "premeditated" which is more than just unlawful. First-degree murder is a specific class of killing.

And why do I wish some people were dead? It's because I believe in justice. I rejoiced when Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were dead. I loved to see Kim Jung-un dead. I would love to see murderers and child molesters dead. I know this surprises you because you are oblivious to things done that don't directly affect you. You only care about yourself. And how the fuck do you know he wishes me no harm? You don't have a clue.

And I know I could easily kill him and get away with it. You are probably unaware that most murders go unsolved. In this case, it would be a relief to the community and L.E. as they have stated publicly that they wish there was a way they could get him out of the neighborhood. And, you are correct, the only reason I don't do it is because of the consequences and it's not because of the law but because I believe I will have to answer for it with my soul.

Learn how to spell "consequences".

[pellius]

Dude, it was just a quarter pounder with cheese.  Time to let go.   

These things take time.

[Henda]

Food can be free, mushrooms can be found growing in the wild, can pick willicks at one the rocks after a high tide, can even get a lobster with a home made hook and with a bit of luck. These are just a few examples, Fuck doing that every day though would rather just go to work to pay for food.

[joswift]

OK, forget innocent. It includes "premeditated" which is more than just unlawful. First-degree murder is a specific class of killing.

And why do I wish some people were dead? It's because I believe in justice. I rejoiced when Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were dead. I loved to see Kim Jung-un dead. I would love to see murderers and child molesters dead. I know this surprises you because you are oblivious to things done that don't directly affect you. You only care about yourself. And how the fuck do you know he wishes me no harm? You don't have a clue.

And I know I could easily kill him and get away with it. You are probably unaware that most murders go unsolved. In this case, it would be a relief to the community and L.E. as they have stated publicly that they wish there was a way they could get him out of the neighborhood. And, you are correct, the only reason I don't do it is because of the consequences and it's not because of the law but because I believe I will have to answer for it with my soul.

Learn how to spell "consequences".

you are aware you can just choose not to believe that and you will be fine.

You are living in a prison of your own making

And why do I wish some people were dead? It's because I believe in justice. I rejoiced when Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were dead. I loved to see Kim Jung-un dead

You are aware that those people were no better or worse than any political leaders in the West, you just seem to want to kill people who you disagree with or dont like.
Do you want George Bush and Tony Blair killed?

Would you have had all the leaders during the 2nd World war on the allied forces who were all fully aware of the Holocaust and chose to do nothing in case it diverted resources to the wrong place?

And I gurantee the guy want dead does not wish you harm, unless you have wronged him in some way..what did you do to him?

[pellius]

you are aware you can just choose not to believe that and you will be fine.

You are living in a prison of your own making

 

Of course, it's my choice. You think you are making some insightful observation? Just like it's your choice to decide that there is no moral good and evil, just opinions. That man has no soul and there's nothing more to all this than what you can see and touch. You've chosen to have a life with no transcendent meaning. That's what makes you so breathtakingly shallow. No wonder your main focus in life at 55 is still how your body looks.

[joswift]

Of course, it's my choice. You think you are making some insightful observation? Just like it's your choice to decide that there is no moral good and evil, just opinions. That man has no sould and there's nothing more to all this than what you can see and touch. You've chosen to have a life with no transcendent meaning. That's what makes you so breathtakingly shallow. No wonder your main focus in life at 55 is still how your body looks.

[pellius]

That's the best you can do? One superfluous letter which is obviously being sloppy whereas your posts are littered with misspelled words, grammatical, and punctuation errors not because you're sloppy but because you just don't know how to spell and write.

[joswift]

That's the best you can do? One superfluous letter which is obviously being sloppy whereas your posts are littered with misspelled words, grammatical, and punctuation errors not because you're sloppy but because you just don't know how to spell and write.

and previously

What's "eays" retard? And just one period will suffice. No space needed in front of a comma.

[pellius]

You are aware that those people were no better or worse than any political leaders in the West, you just seem to want to kill people who you disagree with or dont like.
Do you want George Bush and Tony Blair killed?

Would you have had all the leaders during the 2nd World war on the allied forces who were all fully aware of the Holocaust and chose to do nothing in case it diverted resources to the wrong place?

And I gurantee the guy want dead does not wish you harm, unless you have wronged him in some way..what did you do to him?

You can't guarantee (note correct spelling) shit. You have no idea what or who you are talking about. This crazy bum has been arrested numerous times and gets right back on the street. He has randomly assaulted people, he exposes himself to children and makes cat-calls ("show me your panties") as the kids have to walk past him because they have to get to the bus stop. He has threatened me countless times saying he will put a knife in my back. So STFU. You keep talking about things you know nothing about.

"You are aware that those people were no better or worse than any political leaders in the West"

Wow! I want everybody on this board to read this. This surprises me even coming from you. You are equating monsters like Kim Jung-un, Saddam Hussein, and Osama bin Laden? People who have slaughtered their own people for disagreeing with them and killing innocents because they don't share their religion with our leaders.

I had no idea what a nut case you are.

[joswift]

You can't guarantee (note correct spelling) shit. You have no idea what or who you are talking about.This crazy bum has been arrested numerous times and gets right back on the street. He has randomly assaulted people, he exposes himself to children and makes cat-calls ("show me your panties") as the kids have to walk past him because they have to get to the bus stop. He has threatened me countless times saying he will put a knife in my back. So STFU. You keep talking about things you know nothing about.

"You are aware that those people were no better or worse than any political leaders in the West"

Wow! I want everybody on this board to read this. This surprises me even coming from you. You are equating monsters like Kim Jung-un, Saddam Hussein, and Osama bin Laden? People who have slaughtered their own people for disagreeing with them and killing innocents because they don't share their religion.

I had no idea what a nut case your are.

hahaha. And so do all the political leaders from the West

George Bush and Tony Blair killed thousands of Iraqies based on a lie.
USA overseas involvements

This crazy bum has been arrested numerous times and gets right back on the street. He has randomly assaulted people, he exposes himself to children and makes cat-calls ("show me your panties") as the kids have to walk past him because they have to get to the bus stop. He has threatened me countless times saying he will put a knife in my back. So STFU. You keep talking about things you know nothing about.

he sounds mentally ill and in need of some help, what are you as a God believing Christian doing to help him?
Oh yes, plotting to kill him.

[pellius]

hahaha. And so do all the political leaders from the West

George Bush and Tony Blair killed thousands of Iraqies based on a lie.
USA overseas involvements


he sounds mentally ill and in need of some help, what are you as a God believing Christian doing to help him?
Oh yes, plotting to kill him.

There was no lie. We went to war with Iraq due to the repeated violations of UN resolutions which included credible reports of WMD from all the major intelligence agencies (Russia, France, UK).

And you don't see the difference between casualties of war and targeting innocent civilians. No one, NO ONE, does more to try to spare innocents in times of was than the U.S. That's one of the main reasons why war is so protracted. We fight with one arm tied behind our backs.

Man, you show more and more just what a shallow, vapid person you are.

And way to go like a true European Leftist standing up for criminals and people who make other lives miserable. Sure he's nuts. All the more reason to get rid of him.

[joswift]

There was no lie. We went to war with Iraq due to the repeated violations of UN resolutions which included credible reports of WMD from all the major intelligence agencies (Russia, France, UK).

And you don't see the difference between casualties of war and targeting innocent civilians. No one, NO ONE, does more to try to spare innocents in times of was than the U.S. That's one of the main reasons why war is so protracted. We fight with one arm tied behind our backs.

Man, you show more and more just what a shallow, vapid person you are.

And way to go like a true European Leftist standing up for criminals and people who make other lives miserable. Sure he's nuts. All the more reason to get rid of him.

In the early 2000s, the administrations of George W. Bush and Tony Blair asserted that Saddam Hussein's weapons programs were still actively building weapons, and that large stockpiles of WMDs were hidden in Iraq. Inspections by the UN to resolve the status of unresolved disarmament questions restarted between November 2002 and March 2003,[3] under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441, which demanded Hussein give "immediate, unconditional and active cooperation" with UN and IAEA inspections, shortly before his country was attacked.[4] The United States asserted that Hussein's frequent lack of cooperation was a breach of Resolution 1441, but failed to convince the United Nations Security Council to pass a new resolution authorizing the use of force due to lack of evidence.[5][6][7] Despite this, Bush asserted peaceful measures could not disarm Iraq of the weapons he alleged it to have and launched a second Gulf War instead. A year later, the United States Senate officially released the Senate Report of Pre-war Intelligence on Iraq which concluded that many of the Bush Administration's pre-war statements about Iraqi WMD were misleading and not supported by the underlying intelligence. United States-led inspections later found that Iraq had earlier ceased active WMD production and stockpiling; the war was called by many, including 2008 Republican presidential nominee John McCain in a memoir, a "mistake"

[pellius]

In the early 2000s, the administrations of George W. Bush and Tony Blair asserted that Saddam Hussein's weapons programs were still actively building weapons, and that large stockpiles of WMDs were hidden in Iraq. Inspections by the UN to resolve the status of unresolved disarmament questions restarted between November 2002 and March 2003,[3] under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441, which demanded Hussein give "immediate, unconditional and active cooperation" with UN and IAEA inspections, shortly before his country was attacked.[4] The United States asserted that Hussein's frequent lack of cooperation was a breach of Resolution 1441, but failed to convince the United Nations Security Council to pass a new resolution authorizing the use of force due to lack of evidence.[5][6][7] Despite this, Bush asserted peaceful measures could not disarm Iraq of the weapons he alleged it to have and launched a second Gulf War instead. A year later, the United States Senate officially released the Senate Report of Pre-war Intelligence on Iraq which concluded that many of the Bush Administration's pre-war statements about Iraqi WMD were misleading and not supported by the underlying intelligence. United States-led inspections later found that Iraq had earlier ceased active WMD production and stockpiling; the war was called by many, including 2008 Republican presidential nominee John McCain in a memoir, a "mistake"

I told you, numbnuts, I'm not going to read links or copy/paste bullshit. I can find anything on the net to back any position I want. Try to think and speak for yourself.
Perhaps I've tapped the upper limit of your intellect and so now you have to find others to speak for you.

[joswift]

I told you, numbnuts, I'm not going to read links or copy/paste bullshit. I can find anything on the net to back any position I want. Try to think and speak for yourself.
Perhaps I've tapped the upper limit of your intellect and so now you have to find others to speak for you.

OK, the link says they admit they went to war on a misleading evidence.. thats it in a nutshell

Now, care to back up this point you made

We went to war with Iraq due to the repeated violations of UN resolutions which included credible reports of WMD from all the major intelligence agencies (Russia, France, UK).

see, thats why I post links, it validates the argument, you just make stuff up and dismiss links and evidence because you have none.

imagine if the police and courts acted like you, just shouting out accuastions and making staements as opposed to providing evidence, they wouldnt get very far.

I can see now why you believe in God so easily

[joswift]

Excellent and insightful observation!

Damn, I should have thought of that.

You just further proved how brainwashed and indoctrinated he is. He is incapable of thinking for himself and only parrots what his conspiracy theory whack jobs tell him.
And he's absolutely clueless. He really sincerely believes that he has cornered the truth and is on the right side of history. No capacity for self-reflection and objectivity.

Bit like people who believe in God..

[pellius]

Bit like people who believe in God..

And that's one of the differences between you and me. When I quoted you I posted the entire exchange so that no context is lost. Here you are quoting me referring to an anti-Semitic posts post links and numbers as absolute facts. I have freely admitted that the belief in a creator has not been proven and is taken on faith. It's exactly the same as those who believe that the universe just created itself. It hasn't been proven and is taken on faith. It's just that I am more honest about than you are.

What a phony.

[joswift]

And that's one of the differences between you and me. When I quoted you I posted the entire exchange so that no context is lost. Here you are quoting me referring to an anti-Semitic posts post links and numbers as absolute facts. I have freely admitted that the belief in a creator has not been proven and is taken on faith. It's exactly the same as those who believe that the universe just created itself. It hasn't been proven and is taken on faith. It's just that I am more honest about than you are.

What a phony.

Occams Razor my friend....