Shocking views from joswift that surprised me

[pellius]

And the guards in the concentration camps were just family men who loved their wives and children.
So were the soldiers involved in the Nanking Massacre.
So were the soilders working under Pol Pot
So were the soilders and police working for Adi Amin

Not monsters, not psychopaths, just regular guys like you and me who likely didnt even think they were capable of doing what they did..

A large majority of traumatised veterans are not traumatised by what they have seen, its what they have done...

You keep believing that people are morally sound , even you yourself dont show yourself as a shining example of morality

Your level of understanding and comprehension is almost beyond nonexistent. I don't know how many times I have to say it? It's like you're a child. The argument is not that that immoral people don't exist. That given certain circumstances they will behave like animals. The argument is that you claim that everybody is the same. That no one person is better than another and given certain circumstances we would all do the same acts of evil. Can you understand that? Do I have to type slower? Type all in caps?

And the idea that a person can't be a "shining example of morality" because they have evil thoughts just shows how little understanding of the whole concept of morality. It's not what you think or feel but what you actually do, your actions, that determines what kind of person you are.

This simple concept just seems beyond your level of understanding.

[pellius]

the poor, hungry, homeless bum you physically attacked outside the burger joint a few months back over nothing, what would you have done to him if he and his friends raped a killed a family member of yours during war?

Over nothing? What kind of man are you? Jeeze man, grow a pair.

Men have become so emasculated and pussified these days.

So, just to be clear, you agree with joswift's point of view?

[Army of One]

Over nothing? What kind of man are you? Jeeze man, grow a pair.

Men have become so emasculated and pussified these days.

So, just to be clear, you agree with joswift's point of view?

I agree with what you did, id have likely have done the same.But at the end of the day you resorted to violence which could of ended in death, basically over nothing when you really look at it.People die from single punches every week.But its a slippery slope humans have where violence can escalate very quickly.The highly moral would have said the correct thing to do would be to walk away, or find a safe place and call the police.Theres also the other viewpoint where this was a starving homeless man and you were overindulging on 2 burgers.Had that same situation happened in a world without law, a broken down society, it could have ended with you stamping the guys head in to the concrete to survive.And then the act would become normal as it would need to be repeated to survive.Like joswift said, we are all capable of things we cant imagine.

[illuminati]

Joswift - Quote
“And the guards in the concentration camps were just family men who loved their wives and children.
So were the soldiers involved in the Nanking Massacre.
So were the soilders working under Pol Pot
So were the soilders and police working for Adi Amin

Not monsters, not psychopaths, just regular guys like you and me who likely didnt even think they were capable of doing what they did..

A large majority of traumatised veterans are not traumatised by what they have seen, its what they have done...

You keep believing that people are morally sound , even you yourself dont show yourself as a shining example of morality”


Pellius - Quote
“Your level of understanding and comprehension is almost beyond nonexistent. I don't know how many times I have to say it? It's like you're a child. The argument is not that that immoral people don't exist. That given certain circumstances they will behave like animals. The argument is that you claim that everybody is the same. That no one person is better than another and given certain circumstances we would all do the same acts of evil. Can you understand that? Do I have to type slower? Type all in caps?

And the idea that a person can't be a "shining example of morality" because they have evil thoughts just shows how little understanding of the whole concept of morality. It's not what you think or feel but what you actually do, your actions, that determines what kind of person you are.

This simple concept just seems beyond your level of understanding.”


- - - - -

You both have excellent points - Clearly the Milgram experiment & The Many Atrocious acts carried out by otherwise Normal Decent Soldiers - Go To Prove how easily we can be fooled into becoming monsters to one another.

And yes there are examples of others not succumbing/ Willing to do such things.

Without a doubt we are all different - But as a Species the Vast Majority given the right Circumstances
will easily Become Horrible Unrecognisable Monsters - Sadly there is No doubt about that from the evidence
Of all the atrocities committed in Wars both past & Present.

We haven’t really evolved very far - The Facts Bare that out.

[joswift]

Over nothing? What kind of man are you? Jeeze man, grow a pair.

Men have become so emasculated and pussified these days.

So, just to be clear, you agree with joswift's point of view?

hahaha you just keep validating my point for me, you are one step away from a monster.

Fucks sake mate, put your mask back on, everyone can see the real you.

[oldtimer1]

I'm not reading 5 pages of this. Who is the child molester? Who is the Nazi and radical Islamic terrorism sympathizer?

[joswift]

I'm not reading 5 pages of this. Who is the child molester? Who is the Nazi and radical Islamic terrorism sympathizer?

the same family man who loves his wife and kids...

[Griffith]

Joswift - Quote
“And the guards in the concentration camps were just family men who loved their wives and children.
So were the soldiers involved in the Nanking Massacre.
So were the soilders working under Pol Pot
So were the soilders and police working for Adi Amin

Not monsters, not psychopaths, just regular guys like you and me who likely didnt even think they were capable of doing what they did..

A large majority of traumatised veterans are not traumatised by what they have seen, its what they have done...

You keep believing that people are morally sound , even you yourself dont show yourself as a shining example of morality”


Pellius - Quote
“Your level of understanding and comprehension is almost beyond nonexistent. I don't know how many times I have to say it? It's like you're a child. The argument is not that that immoral people don't exist. That given certain circumstances they will behave like animals. The argument is that you claim that everybody is the same. That no one person is better than another and given certain circumstances we would all do the same acts of evil. Can you understand that? Do I have to type slower? Type all in caps?

And the idea that a person can't be a "shining example of morality" because they have evil thoughts just shows how little understanding of the whole concept of morality. It's not what you think or feel but what you actually do, your actions, that determines what kind of person you are.

This simple concept just seems beyond your level of understanding.”


- - - - -

You both have excellent points - Clearly the Milgram experiment & The Many Atrocious acts carried out by otherwise Normal Decent Soldiers - Go To Prove how easily we can be fooled into becoming monsters to one another.

And yes there are examples of others not succumbing/ Willing to do such things.

Without a doubt we are all different - But as a Species the Vast Majority given the right Circumstances
will easily Become Horrible Unrecognisable Monsters - Sadly there is No doubt about that from the evidence
Of all the atrocities committed in Wars both past & Present.

We haven’t really evolved very far - The Facts Bare that out.

Actually, the Pol Pot regime mostly used teenagers because they were easier to indoctrinate.

For instance in Tol Sleng, the school transformed into a torture and murder facility of political prisoners, most of the torturers were teenagers, some maybe 14 or 15 or so, basically children.

They were taught what they were doing was right, and the people, including women, young children and babies they slowly tortured to death deserved it.

In the Killing Fields they had a tree where they specifically bashed babies heads to kill them. The other people were mostly beaten to death by clubs or digging tools.

I've been there myself, you can still see teeth and bits of bones and clothing lying everywhere. The people literally had their teeth smashed out and skulls and jaws cracked apart as they were beaten to death. Thousands of them.

So people can make of that what they want.

[pellius]

I agree with what you did, id have likely have done the same.But at the end of the day you resorted to violence which could of ended in death, basically over nothing when you really look at it.People die from single punches every week.But its a slippery slope humans have where violence can escalate very quickly.The highly moral would have said the correct thing to do would be to walk away, or find a safe place and call the police.Theres also the other viewpoint where this was a starving homeless man and you were overindulging on 2 burgers.Had that same situation happened in a world without law, a broken down society, it could have ended with you stamping the guys head in to the concrete to survive.And then the act would become normal as it would need to be repeated to survive.Like joswift said, we are all capable of things we cant imagine.

That's where we disagree. To me, it is not nothing. The reason people are getting more and more indecent, aggressive, disrespectful is because we allow it. I remember when I was a kid and some bum started to take a piss at the bus stop people around started yelling at him. Telling him to get out of there. Calling him disgusting. He quickly zipped up and hustled out of there real quick. We didn't except then and it was more rare. To you, someone exposing themselves and acting in a threatening manner should not be allowed. At a movie or store when I see someone cut in line I say something. When there were a group of Marines at a Burger King talking so loud and swearing with every other word and there were families with little kids that had to hear that I say something. I can see everybody in the joint shifting uncomfortable. The father just looks at his daughter who looked scared and just shook his head. The rest of you can remain quiet and just take it like little cowardly sheep but not me.

I can't change the world. I need everybody on my side but most people talk big but are cowards. But I can do my part to keep my little corner of it free of all this rampant incivility that people so passively accept or at least put up a fight. They, you, don't think it matters. I do.

[pellius]

hahaha you just keep validating my point for me, you are one step away from a monster.

Fucks sake mate, put your mask back on, everyone can see the real you.

As you keep validating my point.

And one step away is a big difference than actually taking that step. I'm not going to behead someone or feed them to lions, or mutilate a teenager's body for not being in my gang.

Maybe you are simply a product of your environment with no free will but not me.

[pellius]

Actually, the Pol Pot regime mostly used teenagers because they were easier to indoctrinate.

For instance in Tol Sleng, the school transformed into a torture and murder facility of political prisoners, most of the torturers were teenagers, some maybe 14 or 15 or so, basically children.

They were taught what they were doing was right, and the people, including women, young children and babies they slowly tortured to death deserved it.

In the Killing Fields they had a tree where they specifically bashed babies heads to kill them. The other people were mostly beaten to death by clubs or digging tools.

I've been there myself, you can still see teeth and bits of bones and clothing lying everywhere. The people literally had their teeth smashed out and skulls and jaws cracked apart as they were beaten to death. Thousands of them.

So people can make of that what they want.

Yes, I saw this first hand in South America when I was with the DOD. The theory was, and they were correct, that it was easier to manipulate a young teenager to do things that adults would have a harder time doing because at that age they haven't fully developed a moral sense. Something that actually exists and influences human behavior.

A who had trouble keeping up with the march to a POW camp. She explained to one of the teen soldiers who was said to be 13 years old that she was pregnant. The teenager said something to the effect, "Oh, I understand. You're carrying an additional load. Let me help you with that." And with his bayonet, he cut into the woman's womb and scooped out the fetus.

Not everybody can do that regardless of the circumstances.

[pellius]

Actually, the Pol Pot regime mostly used teenagers because they were easier to indoctrinate.

For instance in Tol Sleng, the school transformed into a torture and murder facility of political prisoners, most of the torturers were teenagers, some maybe 14 or 15 or so, basically children.

They were taught what they were doing was right, and the people, including women, young children and babies they slowly tortured to death deserved it.

In the Killing Fields they had a tree where they specifically bashed babies heads to kill them. The other people were mostly beaten to death by clubs or digging tools.

I've been there myself, you can still see teeth and bits of bones and clothing lying everywhere. The people literally had their teeth smashed out and skulls and jaws cracked apart as they were beaten to death. Thousands of them.

So people can make of that what they want.

Can you conceive of a situation where you would do the exact same thing?

[joswift]

As you keep validating my point.

And one step away is a big difference than actually taking that step. I'm not going to behead someone or feed them to lions, or mutilate a teenager's body for not being in my gang.

Maybe you are simply a product of your environment with no free will but not me.

you have a desire to put a bullet in a hobos head because he's not in your gang, its just prison that stops you

[joswift]

Can you conceive of a situation where you would do the exact same thing?

If you asked the people who have done it that question they would likely say no

[Kwon]

I'm not reading 5 pages of this. Who is the child molester? Who is the Nazi and radical Islamic terrorism sympathizer?

[wes]

My man Kwon with the thread save !!

[pellius]

If you asked the people who have done it that question they would likely say no

Of course, most people will. Unlike you, they believe their fate isn't completely controlled by outside circumstances and have free will to make moral decisions.

[joswift]

Of course, most people will. Unlike you, they believe their fate isn't completely controlled by outside circumstances and have free will to make moral decisions.

you missed the point.

The people who did the atrocities would say they didnt think they could do it.

I have no idea why you are arguing this point anymore, you yourself;f are closer to a monster than most on here, you have already admitted you would murder someone given the opportunity, most people here dont want to kill anyone

You are living proof of my theory.

[oldgolds]

oh, so now morality has different levels?

Right OK... will God forgive him for all his infidelities?

You are either morally sound or you are not, when God gave us our morals did he share them out equally or did Western leaders get over their fair share?

Of course morality has different levels.....Any sane person acknowledges this.
Do you equate killing/torture with shoplifting?   Jeez....

[joswift]

Of course morality has different levels.....Any sane person acknowledges this.
Do you equate killing/torture with shoplifting?   Jeez....

legally yes, morally no...

In the eyes of God every one of us has broke all the 10 commandments

we are all as guilty as each other..

[oldgolds]

legally yes, morally no...

In the eyes of God every one of us has broke all the 10 commandments

we are all as guilty as each other..

Dude....You are mentally ill.

[joswift]

Dude....You are mentally ill.

great counter argument...

[pellius]

you missed the point.

The people who did the atrocities would say they didnt think they could do it.

I have no idea why you are arguing this point anymore, you yourself;f are closer to a monster than most on here, you have already admitted you would murder someone given the opportunity, most people here dont want to kill anyone

You are living proof of my theory.

No, you are just factually wrong. The more you write the more I realize that you really are not a very intelligent person, not a clear thinker.

You really think Kim Jung un, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot really thought he didn't have it in him to torture and murderer people? You're really that naive and out of it?

And the idea that I may have evil thoughts but don't act on it makes me worse than you who admits that the only reason you haven't done any cruel acts is that you simply haven't been put in that circumstance but if you were then you would, as you believe we all would.

Is there anybody here that believes this? That the only reason you are not a monster is not that you have a moral code that trumps your base desires but that you just haven't been put in a circumstance or situation and if you were you would be no different than a murderer and rapist?

[SF1900]

No, you are just factually wrong. The more you write the more I realize that you really are not a very intelligent person, not a clear thinker.

You really think Kim Jung un, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot really thought he didn't have it in him to torture and murderer people? You're really that naive and out of it?

And the idea that I may have evil thoughts but don't act on it makes me worse than you who admits that the only reason you haven't done any cruel acts is that you simply haven't been put in that circumstance but if you were then you would, as you believe we all would.

Is there anybody here that believes this? That the only reason you are not a monster is not that you have a moral code that trumps your base desires but that you just haven't been put in a circumstance or situation and if you were you would be no different than a murderer and rapist?

Maybe JOSWIFT is not intelligent, but what about Simple Simon, UKJEFF or Be There?

[pellius]

Dude....You are mentally ill.

I am beginning to think the same. It's not just having no moral training or foundation. Anybody, whether they believe in God or not, understands that there are gradations of evil both morally and legally. Stealing a snickers bar from a liquor store is not treated the same as robbing a bank at gunpoint or bilking someone out of their life savings both legally and morally. How can anybody think differently? You have to be really twisted to deny something so abundantly obvious. Even a child knows that some things are worse than others and should be treated differently. This very basic moral concept has somehow alluded this morally confused and twisted narcissist.

Even the law has different classifications contingent on the gravity of the offense such as a felony and a misdemeanor. In Christianity, they distinguish between Venial and Mortal sins.

Joswift is not just speaking about things he obviously knows nothing about but even his instincts indicate a very twisted and warped mind.

But, me, the one who has a moral code to guide him and do my best to adhere to, one that has had a huge influence on how l live and my actual behavior -- I'm the dangerous one.