Author Topic: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?  (Read 17734 times)

hardgainerj

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #50 on: February 29, 2020, 08:37:45 AM »
"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.  If you like your health care plan you can keep your health care plan."



Don't trust these people.  It's going to cost much more that they promise, and the care will be way shittier than they promise.  They are habitual liars trying to separate you from your money. 

Don't be a fucking fool.
never rely on government regardless of party

Notomorrow

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #51 on: February 29, 2020, 09:19:52 AM »
Find any country where the living is as good as the USA,Won’t happen.Health care seems pretty great to me.My father needed a valve replaced last month and they got him in in 2 weeks and it wasn’t an emergency they said.Id say that’s pretty damn good.
The nicest house on the block still makes repairs when somethings broken.

Dave D

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #52 on: February 29, 2020, 09:48:19 AM »
So you are an idiot, aren't you? If we take 300 million americans and 300 million europeans from the countries which has universal health care, those europeans are far more healthier than those americans, and that is a fact. There are quite a lot of statistics which prove it, so there is no reason to doubt this...if you aren't moron from USA. How about infant deaths by country- statistic? USA is same level as Chile, Bulgaria, Romania and Lebanon, six deaths per 1000 born child. In first world countries like Norway, Sweden, Japan, Estonia and Belarus, it is only 2 per 1000, in Finland 1/ 1000 born child. How about mortality rate for endocrine, nutritional, and metabolic diseases? USA 37 per 100 000, comparable country average 22. How about mortality rate for accidents, suicides and other external causes? USA 68 per 100 000, comparable country average 43. Mortality rate for diseases of the circulatory system? USA 257, others 215...get the picture? Your medical care is good, because its salesman say so. In the real world its rivals are countries like Romania, Lebanon etc. crapholes  ;D

You’re so angry and defensive. Why?

He’s a point you’re missing with your statistics.

300+ million citizens in the US.  11,000 babies are born EACH DAY here. Do you know how many are born a day in Romania? Less than 550.

So your per 1000 birth numbers don’t include the variables that come into play with those kind of numbers.

I know you will argue this, and all I can say is when the coronavirus hits I hope you see the best doctors Romania has to offer.

el numero uno

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #53 on: February 29, 2020, 09:53:17 AM »
You’re so angry and defensive. Why?

He’s a point you’re missing with your statistics.

300+ million citizens in the US.  11,000 babies are born EACH DAY here. Do you know how many are born a day in Romania? Less than 550.

So your per 1000 birth numbers don’t include the variables that come into play with those kind of numbers.

I know you will argue this, and all I can say is when the coronavirus hits I hope you see the best doctors Romania has to offer.

Lmfao

Rates are inherently expressed in relative terms, not absolute terms.


Dave D

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #54 on: February 29, 2020, 09:59:35 AM »
Lmfao

Rates are inherently expressed in relative terms, not absolute terms.



Yup so when you’re using those rates to demonstrate who has better health care it’s kinda silly.

robcguns

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #55 on: February 29, 2020, 10:14:14 AM »
You’re so angry and defensive. Why?

He’s a point you’re missing with your statistics.

300+ million citizens in the US.  11,000 babies are born EACH DAY here. Do you know how many are born a day in Romania? Less than 550.

So your per 1000 birth numbers don’t include the variables that come into play with those kind of numbers.

I know you will argue this, and all I can say is when the coronavirus hits I hope you see the best doctors Romania has to offer.

Haha I think I would take my chances not seeing a Romanian doctor.

SF1900

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #56 on: February 29, 2020, 10:16:16 AM »
The American healthcare system is a broken, corrupt industry.

And this is coming from someone with good health benefits.
X

Dave D

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #57 on: February 29, 2020, 10:23:27 AM »
The American healthcare system is a broken, corrupt industry.

And this is coming from someone with good health benefits.

SF1900 are willing to share your autozone benefits with a friend who is not Rory?


The system is broken but it seems like the only way it will be fixed is with a total collapse. On paper Obamacare was a good idea until you realized it was "mandatory" health care that wasnt truly affordable for those  needed  it (high copays).

pellius

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #58 on: February 29, 2020, 11:40:29 AM »
So what? You know this by what? You haven't been anywhere else, and your intelligence is on the level, where you take salesman words as an absolute truth. USA must be best place on earth, because the salesman say so? It doesn't matter, you see, when you get this virus, you will be facing that superior health care, and see what it's all about. Just go and make sure that your insurance plan cover all what you will be needing..

What country do you think is better than the US to live?

joswift

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #59 on: February 29, 2020, 11:45:43 AM »
What country do you think is better than the US to live?
Doesnt that depend on a specific area?

Some areas are great and some a shit, a bit like all countries
Some areas in the UK are nice, cities not so much

The Scott

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #60 on: February 29, 2020, 11:53:11 AM »
I don't owe anybody a living.  I don't owe anybody a free ride.  The bullshit of Johnson's "Great Society"  is a farce.  Nothing in life is free, someone is paying for it.

Get a fooking job.  I recently spoke with some young folk that work at gas station/convenience stores and they have health insurance through work.

Oh wait!  They pay for it...

As for what is the greatest nation in the world?  The U.S.A.  If someone thinks otherwise, fine. I can respect a nation that is a Nation unto itself. For example, Britain is putting the "great" back into it's name, i.e., Great Britain.

Canada is screwed. Sweden is screwed.   Germany and France want to be screwed more.

I hope Canada and Sweden wake up from being woke and take back their heritage and make their home a Nation once again. 

Dave D

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #61 on: February 29, 2020, 11:53:21 AM »
What country do you think is better than the US to live?

It depends which country has the better salesman.

If the coronavirus is fatal to the elderly and former smokers and the baby boomers are the largest population,  does it really matter how great of health care they have access to if the disease is a death sentence?

The statistics will be skewed in Ropo's favor!!

OLKE_TEXAS

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #62 on: February 29, 2020, 02:36:57 PM »
Well, the problem is that our healthcare is far from number one--it's around #40 when ranked globally.  Not only that, but we pay far more for our healthcare than any other country.  Not to mention the millions and millions of Americans that are uninsured or underinsured.

Maybe we SHOULD start emulating the other countries that manage to deliver superior care for less money

USA thinks USA is center of the universe lol
O

Notomorrow

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #63 on: February 29, 2020, 02:42:36 PM »
Everything doesn't have to be US love it or Leave it rhetoric. Obviously the US is the greatest country on the earth but it has major problems and the biggest is healthcare. Like I mentioned before, no major country allows direct marketing of drugs to the public. It's just immoral and allso allows tremendous waste as pharma spends billions on "ask your doctor" ads. Its just wrong and advertising is the single largest expense of every major drug company. If that's ok with people than just say Hell yeah, American Capitalism rules, post a picture of John Wayne and accept a broken healthcare system.


A report from the California-based Institute for Health and Socio-Economic Policy stated that in 2015 out of the top 100 pharmaceutical companies by sales, 64 spent twice as much on marketing and sales than on R&D, 58 spent three times, 43 spent five times as much and 27 spent 10 times the amount [3].Mar 13, 2018

Thin Lizzy

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #64 on: February 29, 2020, 03:07:39 PM »
This is a good piece on the subject. As I said, the current US Healthcare system is largely the result of government intervention. That’s why it’s so inefficient:



How We Got to Now: A Brief History of Employer-Sponsored Healthcare

https://www.griffinbenefits.com/employeebenefitsblog/history-of-employer-sponsored-healthcare?hs_amp=true


To combat inflation, the 1942 Stabilization Act was passed. Designed to limit employers' freedom to raise wages and thus to compete on the basis of pay for scarce workers, the actual result of the act was that employers began to offer health benefits as incentives instead.

Suddenly, employers were in the health insurance business. Because health benefits could be considered part of compensation but did not count as income, workers did not have to pay income tax or payroll taxes on those benefits. Thus, by 1943, employers had an increased incentive to make health insurance arrangements for their workers, and the modern era of employer-sponsored health insurance began, a pivotal point in the History of Healthcare in America.

mental_masturbator

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #65 on: February 29, 2020, 04:22:49 PM »
It’s astonishing, but sadly not unexpected, the level of red-baiting that arrises whenever the subject of single-payer health care pops up.  Also expected is the cynical question: “How are you going to pay for it!?”.  Funny, this question is/was NEVER posed when the defense authorization bill comes to a vote, or the bailouts for the banks went through in 2008, or handing out lucrative subsidies to gigantic corporations such as Exxon, Boeing, Raytheon, etc.  We could absolutely afford an expanded Medicare-for-All program.  The government of the USA is a monetary sovereign.  That is to say it issues its own currency which it creates.  Tax-payer dollars don’t fund federal programs, and thus it is really disingenuous to propose elaborate tax plans  and fear-monger about going broke.  The government can literally never run out of dollars.  We can run short on resources, doctors, equipment, labor, etc.  but not dollars.

The only reason politicians argue in such a fashion against single-payer is because their donors don’t want it.

Ropo

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #66 on: February 29, 2020, 10:07:20 PM »
You’re so angry and defensive. Why?

He’s a point you’re missing with your statistics.

300+ million citizens in the US.  11,000 babies are born EACH DAY here. Do you know how many are born a day in Romania? Less than 550.

So your per 1000 birth numbers don’t include the variables that come into play with those kind of numbers.

I know you will argue this, and all I can say is when the coronavirus hits I hope you see the best doctors Romania has to offer.

You didn't understand that figures are per 1000 born child? If we combine European countries to match +300 million citizens, US is still at the level of Romania etc. because all European countries has far better statistic than US  ;D

Ropo

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #67 on: February 29, 2020, 10:57:30 PM »
Everything doesn't have to be US love it or Leave it rhetoric. Obviously the US is the greatest country on the earth but it has major problems and the biggest is healthcare. Like I mentioned before, no major country allows direct marketing of drugs to the public. It's just immoral and allso allows tremendous waste as pharma spends billions on "ask your doctor" ads. Its just wrong and advertising is the single largest expense of every major drug company. If that's ok with people than just say Hell yeah, American Capitalism rules, post a picture of John Wayne and accept a broken healthcare system.


A report from the California-based Institute for Health and Socio-Economic Policy stated that in 2015 out of the top 100 pharmaceutical companies by sales, 64 spent twice as much on marketing and sales than on R&D, 58 spent three times, 43 spent five times as much and 27 spent 10 times the amount [3].Mar 13, 2018


So what? Universal health care is still just pure communism, while fire departments, police, library etc. services paid from the taxation isn't. Never wondering why? Because police would have slight difficulties to write invoices about their work, just as fire departments would have. You call 911, and first what they do is ask about your chequebook balance to find out, do you afford their services. But in the other hand, doctors has no difficulties at all to write that invoice, and fill it by Latin so you don't have a clue what they will charge from you  ;D

pellius

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #68 on: February 29, 2020, 11:57:02 PM »
This is a good piece on the subject. As I said, the current US Healthcare system is largely the result of government intervention. That’s why it’s so inefficient:



How We Got to Now: A Brief History of Employer-Sponsored Healthcare

https://www.griffinbenefits.com/employeebenefitsblog/history-of-employer-sponsored-healthcare?hs_amp=true


To combat inflation, the 1942 Stabilization Act was passed. Designed to limit employers' freedom to raise wages and thus to compete on the basis of pay for scarce workers, the actual result of the act was that employers began to offer health benefits as incentives instead.

Suddenly, employers were in the health insurance business. Because health benefits could be considered part of compensation but did not count as income, workers did not have to pay income tax or payroll taxes on those benefits. Thus, by 1943, employers had an increased incentive to make health insurance arrangements for their workers, and the modern era of employer-sponsored health insurance began, a pivotal point in the History of Healthcare in America.

Finally, someone tells the truth how we got into this mess. And once again it was because of the government meddling in private transactions. In any transaction, there should be only two parties involved: the buyer and the seller. When a third party, that suffers none of the responsibilities and consequences of the transaction, gets involved it always goes bad. When they think that they know better than the actual parties who are involved in the sale and determine the worth of the good or service of concern. In this case, the government during WW2 put a freeze on wages. They passed a law which prevented/limited what an employer can pay an employee. Think of that. If I wanted to give you a certain amount of money for your service the government can tell you "no" you can't give him that much. You have to give him less. Imagine you selling your old jalopy for a $1,000 but, but say I like you and for some reason, or no reason, I decided to give you $5,000 what right does anybody have to say you can't? I should be able give as little or as much money to anybody for any reason or no reason and you can either take it or leave it.

So, to get around these ridiculous restrictions that's when employers started offering "benefits" to attract valuable employees that they weren't allowed to pay with a higher salary. Then you started adding other benefits like paid leave (vacation pay, sick pay) and other incentives getting employers involved in something they should not have been involved with in the first place. And, of course, these "benefits", like all benefits soon become, became entitlements.

And whenever you have a third-party payer, price always goes up. When your doctor scheduled you for an Xray or MRI did you ever ask how much it costs? Did you shop around for the best deal? Why would you? It's not coming directly out of your pocket.

Primemuscle

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2020, 12:22:10 AM »
This.  If you don't like your doctor or health insurer you go get a different doctor or health insurer.  If the government runs the healthcare system you are stuck with what you are offered with no choice.  The government fucks up everything it touches because of no competition.

Have you lived in a country where there was universal healthcare and actually had this experience? My son and his family live in Germany, they choose their doctors and change doctors if needed. They live in a village of about 1,200 people and there is only one local doctor, but an array of doctors are available 20K away in Würzburg. My son has Tri-care because he works for the U.S. government. He sometimes chooses to go to a German doctor instead. 

Notomorrow

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2020, 02:27:13 AM »
I lived in Mexico for five years and while I can't speak on the entire system, for non controlled, non dangerous medications it's over the counter. Why many travel there. I have high blood pressure and needed blood pressure medication. I went to a clinic for a couple bucks, took my blood pressure and went to the pharmacy to get blood pressure meds for a few bucks. Same brand as USA, everything. Came back to the US, went to CVS walk in clinic and it was not only $100 to take my blood pressure, they then demanded I go get a full blood panel for $100 so the lab gets their share, then finally got the script and it was 10 times the price, along with a 5 hour wait. Even Retin A, it's a fucking skin cream for wrinkles, but it's prescription so $100 dermatologist visit then ridiculous price.

USA is great and the best but there are some very minor things such as affordable drugs that can easily be fixed.

MAXX

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2020, 02:49:24 AM »
Universal healthcare and a high tax system only work in high IQ societies and those without alot of ethnic minority groups. We see now dissassembly of it in nations bringing in mass immigration in Europe.

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2020, 03:37:36 AM »
Have you lived in a country where there was universal healthcare and actually had this experience? My son and his family live in Germany, they choose their doctors and change doctors if needed. They live in a village of about 1,200 people and there is only one local doctor, but an array of doctors are available 20K away in Würzburg. My son has Tri-care because he works for the U.S. government. He sometimes chooses to go to a German doctor instead. 
No, I haven't lived in another country like Germany but I know several Canadians who complain about wait times and actually come to the U.S. if they have a serious condition.

mazrim

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2020, 04:40:09 AM »
Only a few in this thread understand that the US is not a pure capitalist system in regards to the healthcare system. It has gotten worse (like all the other countries) the further it has moved away.



Humble Narcissist

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Re: Why do so many americans see universal healthcare as a radical idea?
« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2020, 04:56:09 AM »
Only a few in this thread understand that the US is not a pure capitalist system in regards to the healthcare system. It has gotten worse (like all the other countries) the further it has moved away.



Yes, the government started the problem in the first place and has just made it worse ever since.