Bruce Lee - Why you shouldnt be a permabulker - case study

[pellius]

It IS well known he was juicing. Joe Lewis is on recored somewhere as saying like "that's what you look like when you take steroids and don't eat." This is no secret and even in the early 80's in Chinese martial arts circles people would mock him for juicing. In fact, I think Matt Polly's recent book documents this.

No, it's not. What's your evidence? Something you read that supposedly Joe Lewis said? And how does Joe Lewis, who probably did juice, know that Lee was a user? What is well known is that regular steroid users always assume everyone else who isn't a fatso is also juicing.

And exactly what "martial arts circles" we're you involved in or had inside access to?

[Bevo]

No, it's not. What's your evidence? Something you read that supposedly Joe Lewis said? And how does Joe Lewis, who probably did juice, know that Lee was a user? What is well known is that regular steroid users always assume everyone else who isn't a fatso is also juicing.

Yep. Just like gay people think everyone is gay

[Bevo]

Going by my very subjective perception of Bruce Lee and the type of person he was: very driven and results oriented and, typical of over achievers that want to make history and be remembered forever (remember Arnold in P.I. saying he wanted to be remembered forever like Jesus Christ?), there is nothing, short of immediate death, that Bruce Lee would not have done to achieve greatness. If he had easy access to steroids I have no doubt he would have use them. Imagine being Bruce Lee, looking at yourself and how you appear on screen except being even just 20 pounds of muscle heavier? Still, a twinkish 155 pounds which wouldn't give him that phony bber look and compromise physical and athletic performance but make him look so much more impressive. Just by looking at his physique I don't think he was on steroids. Sure people point to Lance Armstrong and point out that he was as far from a bber as you can get. But Armstrong wasn't doing bench presses, squats, curls, drinking beef blood trying to put on muscle like Lee was. Bruce Lee was definitely interested in putting on muscle. It showed by how he trained and how he presented himself, flexing and being shirtless on screen. Bruce had very little muscle on him. Look how skinny and tiny his arms are. Everyone on this board knows how definition and conditioning can create the illusion of muscle size and development.

But you're right, we will really never know. My beef is the claim that it was "well known" that Bruce Lee was a juicer. That is just patently false.

Ive read a lot about bruce during my teen years and Bruce claimed he went up to around 165 in weight and didn’t like it, felt sluggish and slower. Every thing from training was about functional strength to him, he made that clear.

He had good genetics for bbing if he ever did decide to take it up though

[BB]

In fact, I think Matt Polly's recent book documents this.

The Polly book doesn't have much on steroids, it just mentions Bleeker's assertion that Lee used steroids. It also makes mention of Lee's weight ballooning rapidly to #140 pounds. There is also a mention of Lee drinking tons of cattle blood during this period, and making shakes out of raw hamburger.

[Teutonic Knight 1]

Nobody detects slightly! raised Testosteron that is impossible and will be impossible in the Future. And that
"it didn't do anything for him" is also False. He never wanted to getbig in the first place. Steroids do a lot for you, even gives you speed and strength. So it makes you a better Martial Artist. And you dont getbig if you simply restrict your calories. Also you can train alot longer so that is a huge advantage. He was also in shape all the time and doing lots of stuff. There is a Thing called overtraining that you will hit if you are serious with youre Training.

WOW, this is mega news & you know "so much" about AS + MA training 

Just do DNA sport test & they'll tell you in microns if you took anything in the last 6 months.

You have access to National Sports Institute , don't you !.

OMG, overtraining exists too 

OBW, I use Sustanon 250 for hammering girls for hours & HGH for speed ........... both easily detectable !.

[Teutonic Knight 1]

Yep. Just like gay people think everyone is gay

 

[Teutonic Knight 1]

The Polly book doesn't have much on steroids, it just mentions Bleeker's assertion that Lee used steroids. It also makes mention of Lee's weight ballooning rapidly to #140 pounds. There is also a mention of Lee drinking tons of cattle blood during this period, and making shakes out of raw hamburger.

You are naive, no cattles in Hong Kong, many old fighters use to drink raw liver, so .................!.

[BossBoss]

WOW, this is mega news & you know "so much" about AS + MA training 

Just do DNA sport test & they'll tell you in microns if you took anything in the last 6 months.

You have access to National Sports Institute , don't you !.

OMG, overtraining exists too 

OBW, I use Sustanon 250 for hammering girls for hours & HGH for speed ........... both easily detectable !.

Of course this is nothing new but some things you have to tell over and over.
"DNA sport test" I dont know what that is. What do you want to detect with youre microns?
You cant detect what you dont know. Sustanon & HGH they would not use. But you already know.

[pellius]

BTW, though this proves nothing, but since some are trying to past conjecture and opinion as fact, I will put this out there. During my time training with the Gracie's and the Machado'a I had the opportunity to spend a lot of time -- years -- training and discussing Bruce Lee with people very close to Bruce in real life. I lived in Torrance, CA in the 80s and 90s so the time period and area coincide with my claim. This included Dan Inosantos and Richard Bustillio who took a private lesson with Roger Machado several times a week and I was there watching waiting for the group class that would follow and we spent many hours bull shitting and me picking their brains about Lee. Also, there was Chuck Norris who also trained at the Machado's and helped them tremendously to grow their business. In fact, it was Chuck who brought over one of the Machado brothers, Carlos, with him to Texas when he started that Texas Ranger show. Chuck became a BJJ fanatic and wanted to continue with his training and along with Carlos brought BJJ to Texas.

Never in my discussions with any of these men who actually knew and trained with Lee before he became a star and after he started to make it big ever said he used steroids even when I asked point blank. All, independently, claimed he was a fitness fanatic and never stopped training. Norris made it a point to say that he felt Bruce over did it. Always full of energy, driven, never could sit still. His leaness had nothing to do with him not eating as Lewis claimed. Guru Dan once referred to Lee as a human garbage disposal and always eating. Lee was lean because he never stopped moving.

Again, this doesn't prove anything but this is real live interactions over a period of years and not some heresay or reading second hand accounts from people you don't know that haven't  spent the time in real life with Bruce both in training and socially.

There was no "it was well known" among those who really did know Bruce Lee.

[BB]

You are naive, no cattles in Hong Kong, many old fighters use to drink raw liver, so .................!.

This was in California, late 60's, early 70's. The actor James Coburn mentioned that it grossed him out, and Lee would have fun drinking it around him.

[pellius]

Ive read a lot about bruce during my teen years and Bruce claimed he went up to around 165 in weight and didn’t like it, felt sluggish and slower. Every thing from training was about functional strength to him, he made that clear.

He had good genetics for bbing if he ever did decide to take it up though

I remember reading that it was 150 pounds and it was stated by Dan Inosantos, but this was further proof that he was not using steroids and had a limited ability to gain lean muscle naturally. If he juiced, getting up to 150 or 165 pounds at 5'6" while keeping his low bodfat level is easily doable. He did not have good bbing genetics. He had a very small framed, even petite, structure for a man. Most women would be very satisfied to have his height and weight.

[pellius]

This was in California, late 60's, early 70's. The actor James Coburn mentioned that it grossed him out, and Lee would have fun drinking it around him.

Yes, Linda also wrote how it grossed her out when he would drink beef blood. But my impression was that it was just a phase he went through and didn't do it continuously as a regular thing. Just like those morons who experiment drinking their own piss.

[pellius]

Here's Chuck Norris bringing the Machado brothers over to Texas to do a guest spot on his show rolling. Carlos is the one that Norris brought over. There's some confusion for those that aren't familiar with the brothers. In the last match where Norris is rolling with Rigan it ends with Chuck getting caught in a collar choke. Many thought that it was Rigan doing that choke submission but it was actually Jean Jacques whom I consider the most technical of the brothers and has only a thumb and no fingers on his left hand which is huge obstacle to overcome in a grappling sport. But it was Rigan that was the family champion. Rigan was a true beast and would routinely crush all comers visiting from Brasil at his school in Redondo Beach. Rolling with him was a truly painful and agonizing experience as he knew how to position his weight so that you couldn't breath or be put in such an uncomfortable position that you would would just tap not from a legit submission but because you were in just so much pain having him on top of you. During his competitive career Rigan went undefeated losing only once to his cousin Rickson Gracie. Rigan was only about 18 or 19 years old at the time whereas Rickson was 25-26 years old and in his prime.

[galain]

No, it's not. What's your evidence? Something you read that supposedly Joe Lewis said? And how does Joe Lewis, who probably did juice, know that Lee was a user? What is well known is that regular steroid users always assume everyone else who isn't a fatso is also juicing.

And exactly what "martial arts circles" we're you involved in or had inside access to?

Joe Lewis trained directly with Bruce Lee and was a big influence on his weight training ideas. He introduced to the idea of protein powders and supplementation. I don't know that Lewis was ever named as steroid taker but he could have. Read Polly's book - I'm pretty sure he states it in there.

I started training in Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut in 1978 in both Singapore and Australia. My primary teacher was Loy Chee Hong of the Singapore Hong Seng Koon, but also spent time with Chen Yong Fa of Sydney's Choy Li Fut Federation. I spent 7 months training in Hong Kong which is where I overheard a lot of talk about Lee Siu Lung from seniors in the Hung Sing community who were so enmeshed with the wing chun people it was hard to escape the gossip. I competed internationally in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines from 1991 to 1993/1994 in full contact multi-style tournaments as well as kuoshu/sanda and I teach workshops to this day (COVID permitting).

Anything else you want to know?

Read Polly's book. He's done his research.

I don't know why you're so invested in this. Lee used steroids. He was also a pot head. Who cares?

[Teutonic Knight 1]

Of course this is nothing new but some things you have to tell over and over.
"DNA sport test" I dont know what that is. What do you want to detect with youre microns?
You cant detect what you dont know. Sustanon & HGH they would not use. But you already know.

It's 2o2o , not 1977 & time of Gene doping 

[pellius]

Joe Lewis trained directly with Bruce Lee and was a big influence on his weight training ideas. He introduced to the idea of protein powders and supplementation. I don't know that Lewis was ever named as steroid taker but he could have. Read Polly's book - I'm pretty sure he states it in there.

I started training in Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut in 1978 in both Singapore and Australia. My primary teacher was Loy Chee Hong of the Singapore Hong Seng Koon, but also spent time with Chen Yong Fa of Sydney's Choy Li Fut Federation. I spent 7 months training in Hong Kong which is where I overheard a lot of talk about Lee Siu Lung from seniors in the Hung Sing community who were so enmeshed with the wing chun people it was hard to escape the gossip. I competed internationally in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines from 1991 to 1993/1994 in full contact multi-style tournaments as well as kuoshu/sanda and I teach workshops to this day (COVID permitting).

Anything else you want to know?

Read Polly's book. He's done his research.

I don't know why you're so invested in this. Lee used steroids. He was also a pot head. Who cares?

Really? How much time did Joe Lewis spend training with Bruce Lee and how much time did he spend with him in his personal life? And how do you know Lewis was a "big influence" over Lee in regard to his training? When has Lee ever mentioned Lewis as an influenece on anything. Lewis and Lee were colleagues and not training partners.

And who the hell are Chee Hong, Yong Fa, La Fut, Siu Lung, Moo Goo Gai Pan? Were they close friends with Bruce Lee and trained and knew intimately what he did?  And who the hell is Polly? Did he ever meet of know Bruce Lee? He's an author and makes his living writing and selling books. Dan Inosantos was Bruce Lee's closest friend and knew and trained with him long before little Chinese men who have never gotten into a real fight enmeshed in "Wing Chun gossip".

I'm not "invested" in anything. I don't like lies or people speaking with authority about things they simply have no way of knowing. Again, my dispute is not wether or not Bruce took steroids. I don't know. I don't think he did by the look of his physique and by what those closest to him said. I do believe he would have if he had easy access to them and knew more about them. Steroids were not common knowledge in the martial art community during the sixties. My dispute is the claim that it is well known, an accepted fact, that Bruce took steroids. That is simply not true. And verified by those who actually knew him and not by gossipy old men play dancing in their pajamas thinking they can really fight. Real MMA fighters, athletes that train, are in shape, developed muscles, and sweat buckets everyday busting their ass have exposed these phonies acting like high priests that demand they be bowed to as they tap away at a wooden stump and swing their hands as their students willingly fall to the ground. Reminds me during those Kung Fu guys from the movie in seventies who would test themselves against Thai kick boxers. Again, real athletes, training for real with real contact, real punches and kicks and real broken bones, bustin their ass putting themselves through a gruelling training schedule that would kill those Lee Hing Mui Wing Chun "masters" within hours. It was hilarious watching those Kung Fu fighers gettting gassed just walking out into the ring and then getting kicked around like a sack of potatoes.

Bruce Lee once remarked that you will never find a more out of shape "athlete" than the typical martial art instructor. At least in Jiu-Jitsu you have to prove yourself on the mat everyday and if you are a Black Belt you got goons from all levels trying to tap you and make a name for themselves. The typical martial arts instructor from traditional martial arts don't do shit but just bark orders and demonstrate pre-planned rehearsed moves that never work in real life.

[Matt]

Bruce Lee is another myth we can put away [along with the survival of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia].

How good was Bruce Lee?  Likely as good as any top featherweight in the UFC today.  More likely, a bit less, but with modern-training could have probably been a 145-lb champ, maybe 155-lb if he came up in weight.

Could Bruce Lee take on Brock Lesnar, or some other such nonsense?

NO.

[pellius]

Bruce Lee is another myth we can put away [along with the survival of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia].

How good was Bruce Lee?  Likely as good as any top featherweight in the UFC today.  More likely, a bit less, but with modern-training could have probably been a 145-lb champ, maybe 155-lb if he came up in weight.

Could Bruce Lee take on Brock Lesnar, or some other such nonsense?

NO.

Bruce Lee was a myth? Go to Seattle and visit his grave. He was actually a real person.

[IroNat]

Bruce Lee was a myth? Go to Seattle and visit his grave. He was actually a real person.

Too late!  BLM dropped his statue.

[IroNat]

Lol!

Lee was awesome as Kato.

He was the only reason I watched Green Hornet.

For most people it was the first time they saw martial arts.

[pellius]

Too late!  BLM dropped his statue.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Army of One]

I love Bruce, but Im glad UFC redpilled and ended the "bruce lee could beat tyson/Ali etc" nonsense we heard for decades.

[Teutonic Knight 1]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 B.L. statue is in Sydney (Kogarah) !.

[pellius]

I love Bruce, but Im glad UFC redpilled and ended the "bruce lee could beat tyson/Ali etc" nonsense we heard for decades.

As much as I admire Bruce Lee, if I could transport his 1972 self to a local MMA gym here in Hawaii he would get his ass kicked over and over again.

One thing that was unique about traditional martial arts back in those days was that they never actually fought. There was never any real no holds barred fighting during training or competition. Unlike boxing, Muy Thai, wrestling... martials is run as a business and not as an athletic endeavor. If paying clients keep getting punched in the face they will leave and go train in Aikido. If you don't have grit and talent you get cut from the team. In martial arts as long as you keep paying your monthly dues you're gtg. Stick around long enough and you get your black belt. All the while not ever getting into a real fight.

[Moontrane]

As much as I admire Bruce Lee, if I could transport his 1972 self to a local MMA gym here in Hawaii he would get his ass kicked over and over again.

One thing that was unique about traditional martial arts back in those days was that they never actually fought. There was never any real no holds barred fighting during training or competition. Unlike boxing, Muy Thai, wrestling... martials is run as a business and not as an athletic endeavor. If paying clients keep getting punched in the face they will leave and go train in Aikido. If you don't have grit and talent you get cut from the team. In martial arts as long as you keep paying your monthly dues you're gtg. Stick around long enough and you get your black belt. All the while not ever getting into a real fight.

To the question how would Bruce do in today’s MMA, Mr. Inosanto said something like, “If you were to fly cross country, would you want to fly on the Wright brothers’ Wright Flyer or on a modern jet?”

Like the Wright brothers, Bruce was a pioneer, but state-of-the-art MMA is more sophisticated than what Bruce was doing 50 years ago.