Gym Etiquette - Was I Wrong Here?

[IroNat]

Is modest Anadrol particularly unhealthy?

I've heard that Tren is pretty bad. Is Anadrol in that league?

No, Anadrol is not good for you.

It is highly liver toxic.  One of the worst.

Don't you even do a little research on the drugs you take?

[MCWAY]

Which is EXACTLY why I train for strength rather than muscle mass!!!

You'll improve from workout to workout training for strength. To gain muscle mass requires too much focus on nutrition...it's sort of a 24/7 thing.

I used to think it all boiled down to training - but no.

That's why I just want to do a quick on / quick off, then go back to settle around 185, which is a very healthy, natural body weight to be, that still allows me to be fit for everyday reasons, and pretty strong, without fretting over "if it fits your macros" [oh brother] and the "Weider Instinctual Principle"  , etc.

I just want to train hard and eat when I'm hungry.

My results are not what I'd like them to be, but bodybuilding is somewhat of a con no matter how you cut it - bodybuilding is basically a fraud because even when you are in shape, you don't look like you do after getting a pump.

I look ok enough right now to walk on a public pool deck and look good - and THAT is the beauty of steroids, to me [not being flat all the time. But I will look radically better with a pump. Way better than I do right now.

And I hate that temporary nature of bodybuilding.

Then add the fact that pros have 200 photos taken at a photoshoot, under 5% of which are printed in magazines, AND they are photo retouched, etc.

It's all a fucking fraud.

That's why bodybuilding basically doesn't exist. It's all fake and temporary. Hence why it doesn't interest me.

Whereas with strength training, I can basically just get off my couch and deadlift 500 at any time. Strength stays with us 24/7, or...close enough.

Yet, you are INTENTIONALLY participating in this "fraud", risking your health by talking steroids and eating higher calories (the latter of which you "HATE"). Why? No one is putting a gun to your head and making you do any of it.

You hate the "temporary nature" of bodybuilding. Yet, you are taking anabolics, bragging about how "lean" you are, and posting pics every two seconds.

And here's a news flash: Strength training ALSO requires a focus on nutrition. Have you seen the amount of food these World's Strongest Man winners eat? It makes Ronnie Coleman's diet look like...well.....YOURS!!

Steroids or no steroids, Big and strong men become such by eating large amounts of food. There's not getting around that. Nutrition is also the reason that, when guys get off steroids, they keep a good percentage of their gains.

[hench]

Do you feel insecure or inferior with how you look?
Wouldn't it just screw with your mind to jump on a cycle, make some gains and then lose them when coming off? You can't miss what you haven't had.

I know of a guy who did steroids very early on from 15.
He now produces no testosterone and is on hrt forever. He looks really odd, huge red head, kinda solid but t rex like arms, seems to have low bodyfat but just the veins that give his arms the illusion of size. Unhealthy is how I'd describe his appearance, like a beetroot ready to explode, he wishes he'd never touched steroids.
You look healthy, good structure, standout arms and delts and its not temporary.
Can't you add in some extra calories per day to atleast consume the amount a man eats normally, its surprising you keep that bodyweight undereating everyday.

Which is EXACTLY why I train for strength rather than muscle mass!!!

You'll improve from workout to workout training for strength. To gain muscle mass requires too much focus on nutrition...it's sort of a 24/7 thing.

I used to think it all boiled down to training - but no.

That's why I just want to do a quick on / quick off, then go back to settle around 185, which is a very healthy, natural body weight to be, that still allows me to be fit for everyday reasons, and pretty strong, without fretting over "if it fits your macros" [oh brother] and the "Weider Instinctual Principle"  , etc.

I just want to train hard and eat when I'm hungry.

My results are not what I'd like them to be, but bodybuilding is somewhat of a con no matter how you cut it - bodybuilding is basically a fraud because even when you are in shape, you don't look like you do after getting a pump.

I look ok enough right now to walk on a public pool deck and look good - and THAT is the beauty of steroids, to me [not being flat all the time. But I will look radically better with a pump. Way better than I do right now.

And I hate that temporary nature of bodybuilding.

Then add the fact that pros have 200 photos taken at a photoshoot, under 5% of which are printed in magazines, AND they are photo retouched, etc.

It's all a fucking fraud.

That's why bodybuilding basically doesn't exist. It's all fake and temporary. Hence why it doesn't interest me.

Whereas with strength training, I can basically just get off my couch and deadlift 500 at any time. Strength stays with us 24/7, or...close enough.

[bhank]

No, Anadrol is not good for you.

It is highly liver toxic.  One of the worst.

Don't you even do a little research on the drugs you take?

Is it though according to actual prescribing info not bro science 1-5mg per kilo of bodyweight is the recommended daily dosage for anemia. Matt at 185lbs is 83 kilograms which means the recommended dosage would be 83-415mg a day. He says he is taking 25mgs a day. Lets not forget this is an FDA approved medication for not just men but also children and women with a minimum trial of 3-6 months recommended.

Meanwhile bro science say 50-100mg a day max for 6 weeks due to toxicity  lol motherfuckers be drinking a 6 pack of beer a night talking about how 25mg or less than a third of the minimum dosage of an FDA approved medication for women and children is going to hurt their kidneys and liver gtfo

https://www.rxlist.com/anadrol-50-drug.htm#dosage
DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION
The recommended daily dose in children and adults is 1-5 mg/kg body weight per day. The usual effective dose is 1-2 mg/kg/day but higher doses may be required, and the dose should be individualized. Response is not often immediate, and a minimum trial of three to six months should be given.

[Gym-Rat]

The orals are always talked about like you will lose your liver in 4-weeks on 50 Mg's a day.
While liver enzymes do get elevated, a cycle of 50 mgs a day is relatively safe. (8-12 weeks).

Ive read studies where patients (AIDS, etc) have been on for 3-6 years at 150-200 mgs a day, and liver values are back within a month of stopping.
(With no long term damage seen).

Of course there are other issues (back pumps, fucked up digestion, etc) so you may feel like dirt taking it.

And for some people it may damage your liver, like Tylenol and other drugs.

[Dave D]

Matt should realize he has real issues when Bhanks becomes the voice of reason.

[BB]

90% of the powerlifters, heavy T/F athletes, strongmen, Ol'ers, etc.... from the 60's - would be dead if Anadrol would be dead if it was that bad.

Run it low, run it short, and you should be fine. If you really feel bothered by it, just drop it.

If it's safe enough for end stage AIDS patients, it's safe enough for you, Matt -

"German Steroid Study Success
by Michael Mooney (from Issue No. 3, May 1996)

A new study shows that one of the most powerful oral anabolic steroids improves lean muscle mass with no significant side-effects in HIV-positive men and women. (1) Oxymetholone, formerly sold in the US as Anadrol-50, was given for thirty weeks at a 150 mg/daily dose. Weight gain averaged 14.5% of bodyweight, which is significant because there was no exercise program instituted, but it is known that anabolic steroids exert their greatest effect when weightlifting is employed. Notably, even the subset of patients burdened with AIDS-related infections continued to gain weight on oxymetholone.

While oxymetholone is considered to be a harsh steroid with a high potential for side-effects, the subjects were reported to have no significant problems with liver function, water retention, virilization, and several side-effects thought to be associated with its use, at a dose that is three times what many bodybuilders would use, for considerably longer than they would generally use it.

The study didn't look at CD8+ T cell counts, which appear to be more correlative with survival than CD4+ T cells,(2) which were not correlative with weight gain in this study.

1. Oxymetholone promotes weight gain in patients with advanced human immunodeficiency virus (HIV-1) infection. Hengge, et al. Brit J Nutri (1996) 75:129-138]

2. CD8+ lymphocyte counts and the risk of death in advanced HIV infection. Schlumpberger JM, et al. J Family Practice (1994) 38(1):33-38."

Actual study cited -

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/3742E21B12290D7A1A25C38C2345A00F/S0007114596000165a.pdf/oxymetholone-promotes-weight-gain-in-patients-with-advanced-human-immunodeficiency-virus-hiv-1-infection.pdf .

"All patients tolerated the drug(s) well. Potential side-effects of treatment were increased fatigue (n 2) and impotence (n 1). Peripheral oedema, deep venous thrombosis, hypertension, increased libido or signs of virilization were not observed. There were no significant alterations in coagulation profiles (prothrombin time, partial thromboplastin time), complete blood counts or renal and liver function tests that were related to
treatment. "

[Gym-Rat]

...

[Gym-Rat]

...

[IroNat]

90% of the powerlifters, heavy T/F athletes, strongmen, Ol'ers, etc.... from the 60's - would be dead if Anadrol would be dead if it was that bad.

They are dead.

[MCWAY]

That's pretty much the shake I used (minus the three scoops of protein powder, back in the day. I consumed half in the morning and the other half before bed. I used half-n-half originally before realizing that powdered milk was more economical, though the calories were lower.

[Rambone]

90% of the powerlifters, heavy T/F athletes, strongmen, Ol'ers, etc.... from the 60's - would be dead if Anadrol would be dead if it was that bad.

Run it low, run it short, and you should be fine. If you really feel bothered by it, just drop it.

If it's safe enough for end stage AIDS patients, it's safe enough for you, Matt -

"German Steroid Study Success
by Michael Mooney (from Issue No. 3, May 1996)

A new study shows that one of the most powerful oral anabolic steroids improves lean muscle mass with no significant side-effects in HIV-positive men and women. (1) Oxymetholone, formerly sold in the US as Anadrol-50, was given for thirty weeks at a 150 mg/daily dose. Weight gain averaged 14.5% of bodyweight, which is significant because there was no exercise program instituted, but it is known that anabolic steroids exert their greatest effect when weightlifting is employed. Notably, even the subset of patients burdened with AIDS-related infections continued to gain weight on oxymetholone.

While oxymetholone is considered to be a harsh steroid with a high potential for side-effects, the subjects were reported to have no significant problems with liver function, water retention, virilization, and several side-effects thought to be associated with its use, at a dose that is three times what many bodybuilders would use, for considerably longer than they would generally use it.

The study didn't look at CD8+ T cell counts, which appear to be more correlative with survival than CD4+ T cells,(2) which were not correlative with weight gain in this study.

1. Oxymetholone promotes weight gain in patients with advanced human immunodeficiency virus (HIV-1) infection. Hengge, et al. Brit J Nutri (1996) 75:129-138]

2. CD8+ lymphocyte counts and the risk of death in advanced HIV infection. Schlumpberger JM, et al. J Family Practice (1994) 38(1):33-38."

Actual study cited -

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/3742E21B12290D7A1A25C38C2345A00F/S0007114596000165a.pdf/oxymetholone-promotes-weight-gain-in-patients-with-advanced-human-immunodeficiency-virus-hiv-1-infection.pdf .

"All patients tolerated the drug(s) well. Potential side-effects of treatment were increased fatigue (n 2) and impotence (n 1). Peripheral oedema, deep venous thrombosis, hypertension, increased libido or signs of virilization were not observed. There were no significant alterations in coagulation profiles (prothrombin time, partial thromboplastin time), complete blood counts or renal and liver function tests that were related to
treatment. "

Matt has AIDS?











 

[ThisisOverload]

The orals are always talked about like you will lose your liver in 4-weeks on 50 Mg's a day.
While liver enzymes do get elevated, a cycle of 50 mgs a day is relatively safe. (8-12 weeks).

Ive read studies where patients (AIDS, etc) have been on for 3-6 years at 150-200 mgs a day, and liver values are back within a month of stopping.
(With no long term damage seen).

Of course there are other issues (back pumps, fucked up digestion, etc) so you may feel like dirt taking it.

And for some people it may damage your liver, like Tylenol and other drugs.

I've taken 100mg of Drol for 3-4 months at a time.

My liver values were within normal range and you could barely notice a change.

Drinking a few beers is far more destructive on your liver.

I've taken enough oral AAS to kill a bus full of people based on what people "think" or read on the internet.

Yet my liver values have never shown any need for concern.

Oral steroids are not going to harm your liver if you are a healthy person to begin with.

[keanu]

Matt, just enjoy the cycle. No need to over think things.

[IroNat]

I've taken 100mg of Drol for 3-4 months at a time.

My liver values were within normal range and you could barely notice a change.

Drinking a few beers is far more destructive on your liver.

I've taken enough oral AAS to kill a bus full of people based on what people "think" or read on the internet.

Yet my liver values have never shown any need for concern.

Oral steroids are not going to harm your liver if you are a healthy person to begin with.

It's been nice knowin' ya.

[webstar]

I've taken 100mg of Drol for 3-4 months at a time.

My liver values were within normal range and you could barely notice a change.

Drinking a few beers is far more destructive on your liver.

I've taken enough oral AAS to kill a bus full of people based on what people "think" or read on the internet.

Yet my liver values have never shown any need for concern.

Oral steroids are not going to harm your liver if you are a healthy person to begin with.

Likewise,

I don’t Remeber which coach it was at the time. I think it was Chad or Hany that had me on 50 mg dbol and 50 mg anadrol pre workout.

My liver values were fine as well.

Same coach pre contest had me run var and winny for the synergistic effects that last 6 weeks.

[ThisisOverload]

It's been nice knowin' ya.

My liver may fall out one day.

But it will be from all the wine and not the orals.

Odd that no BB'er (that i know of) has had liver failure.

I do believe that oral AAS can make an existing problem worse and that you should always do bloodwork before, during and after a cycle.

The one person i know who had liver failure, was a guy who drank Vodka every day for like 25 years.

Died at 49 years old.

[Van_Bilderass]

My training partner, who is 58, told me he used Anadrol at 25-250mg a day for a year straight!  That's a pretty long time I told him, how long are you going to stay off it? "I already started again, it's just too good, often makes me feel kinda crappy but there's not much that compares." It had been a week LOL. One year on, one week off. Recently he told me he was just taking test. But what about the Anadrol? Sure, but I only take 25mg.

90% of the powerlifters, heavy T/F athletes, strongmen, Ol'ers, etc.... from the 60's - would be dead if Anadrol would be dead if it was that bad.

Run it low, run it short, and you should be fine. If you really feel bothered by it, just drop it.

If it's safe enough for end stage AIDS patients, it's safe enough for you, Matt -



Actual study cited -

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-c .

"All patients tolerated the drug(s) well. Potential side-effects of treatment were increased fatigue. Peripheral oedema, deep venous thrombosis, hypertension, increased libido or signs of virilization were not observed. There were no significant alterations in coagulation profiles (prothrombin time, partial thromboplastin time), complete blood counts or renal and liver function tests that were related to
treatment. "

I mentioned the fatigue several times in this thread. It's very real but in my case it's mostly positive in that I feel like I sleep better. Impotence is counteracted by concurrent testosterone but it has to be admitted that all steroids can cause problems in that department. Seems like "everyone" uses Viagra these days and Cialis, especially since a low daily dose of Cialis can bring a slightly elevated BP into range. The lack of appetite is also not mentioned but that is very real as well. But maybe these guys were on Megestrol as well (an AIDS drug, an appetite stimulant Chad Nicholls has recommended, basically progesterone, a "female hormone").

Regarding Anadrol and liver problems, there is one potential serious consequence and it's peliosis hepatitis, or benign blood filled cysts in the liver. Benign but if they rupture you could die. As far as I know only Anadrol has been directly connected to the condition but sometimes it's mentioned as a potential side or other orals as well. I've seen a few cases on bodybuilding forums over a couple of decades but seems like they actually weren't on Anadrol specifically, someone blamed tren, someone theorized that it's connected to estrogen somehow. Some steroids like Anadrol which does not convert to estrogen exhibit estrogen like effects - direct effects on estrogen receptors.

[King Shizzo]

My liver may fall out one day.

But it will be from all the wine and not the orals.

Odd that no BB'er (that i know of) has had liver failure.

I do believe that oral AAS can make an existing problem worse and that you should always do bloodwork before, during and after a cycle.

The one person i know who had liver failure, was a guy who drank Vodka every day for like 25 years.

Died at 49 years old.

Wine and orals? You sound like a desperate housewife.

[robcguns]

Wine and orals? You sound like a desperate housewife.

Hahahahah

[AbrahamG]

Hahahahah

That chubby little queer has been on a good run, right?   

[robcguns]

That chubby little queer has been on a good run, right?   

He most certainly has.

[AbrahamG]

Not you Rob.  Shizzo.   

[King Shizzo]

That chubby little queer has been on a good run, right?   

Like I run.....

[robcguns]

Not you Rob.  Shizzo.   

Haahahha