Invasion of Haiti by the U.S.

[mphgrove]

This article argues that when the US has intervened in Haiti, even with the best of intentions, we end up propping up a faction of elites that more or less operates like the street gangs do, simply corruption dressed up in better clothes. But then how in the hell to help? Many would say just leave them to their own devices.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/10/31/haiti-us-intervention-gangs-united-nations/

[Rambone]

Tommywishbone could invade Haiti and conquer it in a weekend. Just give him some Anadrol and a full McDonald’s bag, and he’ll get it done all while laughing the entire time covered in blood

[BBSSchlemiel]

This article argues that when the US has intervened in Haiti, even with the best of intentions, we end up propping up a faction of elites that more or less operates like the street gangs do, simply corruption dressed up in better clothes. But then how in the hell to help? Many would say just leave them to their own devices.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/10/31/haiti-us-intervention-gangs-united-nations/

Simple. Don’t help. Do you care about helping Haitians? I don’t.

[The Scott]

Fuck Haiti to Hades.

[mphgrove]

Simple. Don’t help. Do you care about helping Haitians? I don’t.

Yeah, I guess I do care. But I agree probably not do much good. So staying out of it probably best.

[Humble Narcissist]

Fuck Haiti to Hades.

It's already Hades.

[_bruce_]

Carpet bomb it for a better world.

[Humble Narcissist]

Carpet bomb it for a better world.

Carpet bombing Haiti would improve the look of the place.

[Griffith]

Could become another US protectorate 

[BBSSchlemiel]

Yeah, I guess I do care. But I agree probably not do much good. So staying out of it probably best.

Why? Do ya think perhaps shouldn’t have long ago slaughtered the French whites who made the country for them?

From Hesketh Prichard’s A Journey Across and About Hayti:

"Suffice it to say that . . . [Hayti's] best president was Geffrard, a mulatto, and that the dictatorship of her Black heads of state always has been marked by a redder smear than usual upon the page of history. The better, the wiser, the more enlightened and less brutalized class has always been composed of the mulattos, and the Blacks have recognized the fact and hated the mulatto element accordingly. But to pass from the earlier days of independence to more recent times: we had not long ago the savage rule of President Salomon, a notorious sectary of snake worship, beneath whose iron hand the country groaned for years, and public executions, assassinations, and robbery were the order of the day. And at the present time? Today in Hayti we come to the real crux of the question. At the end of a hundred years of trial how does the black man govern himself? What progress has he made? Absolutely none.”

[mphgrove]

Why? Do ya think perhaps shouldn’t have long ago slaughtered the French whites who made the country for them?

From Hesketh Prichard’s A Journey Across and About Hayti:

"Suffice it to say that . . . [Hayti's] best president was Geffrard, a mulatto, and that the dictatorship of her Black heads of state always has been marked by a redder smear than usual upon the page of history. The better, the wiser, the more enlightened and less brutalized class has always been composed of the mulattos, and the Blacks have recognized the fact and hated the mulatto element accordingly. But to pass from the earlier days of independence to more recent times: we had not long ago the savage rule of President Salomon, a notorious sectary of snake worship, beneath whose iron hand the country groaned for years, and public executions, assassinations, and robbery were the order of the day. And at the present time? Today in Hayti we come to the real crux of the question. At the end of a hundred years of trial how does the black man govern himself? What progress has he made? Absolutely none.”

Don’t paint me in a box. I am not so simplistic as to blame it all on colonizers (even the debt to France) or to believe that the presence of US marines 80 years ago has much to do with it. I do think a highly corrupt elite class (mulatto AND black) which outsiders have no choice but to more or less deal with does have a lot to do with it. It’s a neighbor island right next door to us with a lot of beauty and an interesting culture. People care or don’t care in different ways. There are many thoughtful and honest people within Haiti who desperately care about the future of their country (again both Black AND mulatto citizens) and who are rooting for eventual rule of law. Ditto many Haitian Americans in or around New York or Miami who have family there and dutifully send money. Evangelical Christians from the US have continued to be missionaries there even in the toughest times to run schools, etc. Lots of other non-profits too.

I intellectually think we probably should not go in from a government standpoint, but I know myself well enough to know that I could easily be talked into a revived Marine presence to help restore order with the right arguments.

[mphgrove]

Back to bodybuilding:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kf0YDbVAb5Y

[BBSSchlemiel]

I intellectually think we probably should not go in from a government standpoint, but I know myself well enough to know that I could easily be talked into a revived Marine presence to help restore order with the right arguments.

Of course the French aren’t to blame. They gave the blacks a made country.

You’d want us to go there for a fourth or fifth (I lost count) time in the last century, only for it to fall back into squalor again after leave?

I’m not putting you in a box. I’m simply astonished by many Americans’ irrational altruism.

[Teutonic Knight]

Battle of a Lifetime.  Maybe the Dominicans step in.  Me no black, me no defend that half of the island. Oil too black too. 

LA scenery !.

[mphgrove]

Of course the French aren’t to blame. They gave the blacks a made country.

You’d want us to go there for a fourth or fifth (I lost count) time in the last century, only for it to fall back into squalor again after leave?

I’m not putting you in a box. I’m simply astonished by many Americans’ irrational altruism.

Your statement about colonization (based on slavery in this case) is too one sided and simplistic but I will grant you that the direction of my altruism may be irrational.

[Irongrip400]

Why is Dominican Republic on the same island and does so much better?

[Humble Narcissist]

Why is Dominican Republic on the same island and does so much better?

Hispanic and less African?

[BBSSchlemiel]

Why is Dominican Republic on the same island and does so much better?

Read Where Black Rules White: A Journey Across and About Hayti by Hesketh Prichard to get some good background.

[mphgrove]

Tempted to read it as it probably gives clues from over 100 years ago. One excerpt I just found: “The Dominicans are nowhere near as likeable as the Haitian peasantry and there is nowhere near the level of hospitality in the Dominican Republic as you find in Haiti.” So whatever his conclusions, he did seem to “care” about the people.

[Tapeworm]

Don procupy yaself. You gon see ebrayting gwambe airee.

That Haitian Revolution was bit of a whoopsidaisy for the 'ol Euro master class tho.

[BBSSchlemiel]

Tempted to read it as it probably gives clues from over 100 years ago. One except I just found: “The Dominicans are nowhere near as likeable as the Haitian peasantry and there is nowhere near the level of hospitality in the Dominican Republic as you find in Haiti.” So whatever his conclusions, he did seem to “care” about the people.

Link for book is here to read online:

https://archive.org/details/whereblackrulesw00pric/page/156/mode/2up

Quote from the chapter, can the Negro Rule Himself:

"The present condition of Hayti gives the best possible answer to the question, and, considering the experiment has lasted for a century, perhaps also a conclusive one. For a century the answer has been working itself out there in flesh and blood. The Negro has had his chance, a fair field, and no favor. He has had the most beautiful and fertile of the Caribbees for his own; he has had the advantage of excellent French laws; he inherited a made country, with Cap Haitien for its Paris. Here was a wide land sown with prosperity, a land of wood, water, towns and plantations, and in the midst of it the Black man was turned loose to work out his own salvation. What has he made of the chances that were given to him?"

[mphgrove]

Link for book is here to read online:

https://archive.org/details/whereblackrulesw00pric/page/156/mode/2up

Quote from the chapter, can the Negro Rule Himself:

"The present condition of Hayti gives the best possible answer to the question, and, considering the experiment has lasted for a century, perhaps also a conclusive one. For a century the answer has been working itself out there in flesh and blood. The Negro has had his chance, a fair field, and no favor. He has had the most beautiful and fertile of the Caribbees for his own; he has had the advantage of excellent French laws; he inherited a made country, with Cap Haitien for its Paris. Here was a wide land sown with prosperity, a land of wood, water, towns and plantations, and in the midst of it the Black man was turned loose to work out his own salvation. What has he made of the chances that were given to him?"

Thanks, I will read it, especially for an understanding of what Haiti looked like 120 years ago. However, bemoaning a perceived (or real) inability does not necessarily point to solutions. But I will give it a read. 120 years ago there would have still been trees on the ground and a manageable population level. Now there are 11 million people and one or two trees.

[BBSSchlemiel]

Thanks, I will read it, especially for an understanding of what Haiti looked like 120 years ago. However, bemoaning a perceived (or real) inability does not necessarily point to solutions. But I will give it a read. 120 years ago there would have still been trees on the ground and a manageable population level. Now there are 11 million people and one or two trees.

Welcome.

[illuminati]

Link for book is here to read online:

https://archive.org/details/whereblackrulesw00pric/page/156/mode/2up

Quote from the chapter, can the Negro Rule Himself:

"The present condition of Hayti gives the best possible answer to the question, and, considering the experiment has lasted for a century, perhaps also a conclusive one. For a century the answer has been working itself out there in flesh and blood. The Negro has had his chance, a fair field, and no favor. He has had the most beautiful and fertile of the Caribbees for his own; he has had the advantage of excellent French laws; he inherited a made country, with Cap Haitien for its Paris. Here was a wide land sown with prosperity, a land of wood, water, towns and plantations, and in the midst of it the Black man was turned loose to work out his own salvation. What has he made of the chances that were given to him?"

They've progressed it To absolute Waste & Shit - just like everywhere there's a large population of Them.  Without the white Man's help & guidance they revert back to
Tribalism - That's there Natural Level.

[Humble Narcissist]

Take all the people from Iceland and all the people from Haiti and have them trade places. Come back a year later and Haiti would be 1000X better and all the Haitians in Iceland would be dead.