Extra 50K - What do you guys think?

[Ron]

I agree that is fair.  And most stores won't let you work for their competitors.  That is very common.

Excellent. Agreement on that the athletes have to choose which one they want to be in. Amazing what discussion can come with.

It would be unfair of the Union rep- the guy who works hard for the rights of all the stockboys at walmart- to work to keep Target from moving in next door.  he would never tell his stockboys not to work at Target.  

Now - this union rep (although most WalMarts dont have unions, but for the sake of arguement) would most likely work for WalMart, and all of the stockboys in the country. He wishes well for Target, but it should be his concern that if some of the stockboys go over to a store that hasnt had its grand opening yet, and may only be open a few times a year, they should understand that.

He can wish Target the best, when they open up, with whatever stockboys that chose to get there. But the stockboys understand that Wal-Mart retains the right not to hire them back if it doesnt work out either, or if they don't get to work 40 hours a week, just only 10 hours a week.

[LuciusFox]

I see the IFBB as Wal-Mart.  They keep 95% of their employees just above poverty level, earning 8 and change an hour.

WalMart, due to their relationship with customers (lowest prices) and suppliers (efficient shipping systems in place), will not be beaten.  Just like the IFBB will not.

But- a specialy grocer can move in next door to WalMart and sell different foods, and deliver better customer service.

Suddenly customers (fans) have more options.  Employees can work at either place, which keeps wages competitive.  And owners have to ensure they keep delivering both the employees and customers a high level of service to keep em coming back.

you will not find ONE example in history where a MONOPOLY was better for employees, or customers.  (Fans or athletes here).  Only the owners.

You will not find ONE example in history where a MONOPOLY was better for employees, or customers.... yes you will, Standard Oil.


Standard Oil was founded in the 1800's and provided oil for much of America. They eventually controlled most of the market and ran smaller oil providers out of business because they were able to keep costs and prices low. Eventually, an Antitrust Act was required to break up the company, but they kept prices low while in operation.

[240 is Back]

And looking more at the Union rep for the stockboys- (Bob Chick's role)

He would be INVITING Target to move in next door to walmart.  He would KNOW that a big store moving in next door could ONLY be good for the stockboys.

People are always going to need food.  So we can assume that at least one of the stores will survive.  So we know there will always be work for the stockboys. (just like there will always be Bbing fans who like to attend shows)

Stores will give employees just as much pay as they HAVE to.  That's simple enough.  When Target moves in, Target is going to pay a buck more than WMT, to attract walmart's best stockers.  Walmart will have to raise its wages to KEEP its employees.  Who wins? Workers! (Pro BBers!)  Who gets hurt a little financially? Walmart and Target (but they're rich enough to take the hit).

We on getbig, Bob, The Athletes, NONE of us are crying for the IFBB's position.  At least, we shouldn't be.  They make more $ than all the athletes combined.  So let's see what can be done to get Target next door, and KMart on the next block!  Now, WMT has to pay $2 more per hour to keep their crew!  They get raises to stay, or they get new opportunities and a raise to move on!  What a great deal for the stockers (BBers!)

[240 is Back]

Personally I think a "closed shop" run correctly is the the best appproach.

COrrect- BUT it's not being run correctly and no change seems to be coming.  Most of the guys in this multi-million dollar industry are living on the edge of the law and check to check.  They are not being rewarded for their sacrifices.

[thisiskeith12]

 you will not find ONE example in history where a MONOPOLY was better for employees, or customers....yes you will, Standard Oil.

People complain about gas prices going up but when starbucks goes up 20 cents no one cares. 

[Ron]

He would be INVITING Target to move in next door to walmart. He would KNOW that a big store moving in next door could ONLY be good for the stockboys.

I think that Bob has already said that the PDI is fine and he is ok with that. The athletes just have to choose.

People are always going to need food. So we can assume that at least one of the stores will survive. So we know there will always be work for the stockboys. (just like there will always be Bbing fans who like to attend shows)

There will always be work for the stockboys. But new stockboys always come up, and why should Wal-Mart bring back stockboys that didnt want to play by Wal-Marts guidelines when they are many stockboys that are.

Stores will give employees just as much pay as they HAVE to. That's simple enough. When Target moves in, Target is going to pay a buck more than WMT, to attract walmart's best stockers. Walmart will have to raise its wages to KEEP its employees. Who wins? Workers! (Pro BBers!) Who gets hurt a little financially? Walmart and Target (but they're rich enough to take the hit).

Again - it is the stockboys choice to go where they want. There is no arguement here from anyone in the IFBB. But they need to decide. They can’t do both. I thought we already agreed on this.

We on getbig, Bob, The Athletes, NONE of us are crying for the IFBB's position. At least, we shouldn't be. They make more $ than all the athletes combined. So let's see what can be done to get Target next door, and KMart on the next block! Now, WMT has to pay $2 more per hour to keep their crew! They get raises to stay, or they get new opportunities and a raise to move on! What a great deal for the stockers (BBers!)

Target (PDI), if what Wayne says, will be built next door. Perhaps KMart (another federation) on the next bloock. If Target can give the stockboys more money - great. But again, the stockboys have to choose.

[240 is Back]

 you will not find ONE example in history where a MONOPOLY was better for employees, or customers....yes you will, Standard Oil.

I disagree.

Standard Oil was able to dictate terms for both employees and customers, making them all-powerful and unaccountable.  They couldn't be stopped.

Standard Oil cut pay and raised prixes once they crushed the competitors.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

[240 is Back]

WalMart hates unions and encourages you NOT to join them when you're hired.  I worked there for 3 years during college.  It bordered on propaganda in the breakroom and near the timeclock.  Socially unacceptable to join.

[LuciusFox]

I disagree.

Standard Oil was able to dictate terms for both employees and customers, making them all-powerful and unaccountable.  They couldn't be stopped.

Standard Oil cut pay and raised prixes once they crushed the competitors.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

 The problem with that assessment is that they still offered lower prices than the competition. If they didn't, others could come in and take market share.

[Chick]

Were forgetting one thing here boys...

supply and demand...the very foundation of business.

When there aren't enough customers (fans) to support Wal-mart and Target...guess what happens to the stock boys...they get LAID OFF.

[onlyme]

The harm in it is that it will give the PDI an existence and an affirmation, and that is something that the IFBB doesnt want. Why help someone who is essentially your competition. Doesnt matter what federation or group it is - the same applies. That is just like asking why can't the NFL players play in the CFL, or Arena League, or so on. Because they can't.

I think you guys must realize that Bob is not going to suspend Lee or anyone else if they violate one of the most sacred rules - the IFBB will.

Well - here you go. Bob is the IFBB Athlete's Rep. He isn't the PDI's Athletes Rep, or NABBA's Athlete Rep. Other federations can appoint their own. And he is doing his best, working on whatever he can to get better benefits and prize money for the IFBB Athletes, in the group he is in. It is that simple.

If you have ever been to college and joined a fraternity, you know that you can join another fraternity while you are in it. You can go to their parties, you can go to their events, but you cannot compete on their basketball teams, intermural teams, or be part of their organization. And if fraternity #1 offers a prize if you win, fraternity #2 member just can't compete and get it. You can even go to another university and join the same fraternity, but not another one. So simple - same analogy.

This is true. Bob has organized meetings, provided literature to benefit IFBB athletes, and tried many things. Athletes want to want to be helped.
 

Hey, if the athlete could have it their way, they would compete in any organization that offers prize money. But alas, like many sport, organizations, and clubs, that doesn't work that way.  No one is telling these athletes where to go. The PDI can exist, as other organizations do. But people need to choose which one they want to compete in. And wish them the best.

But the NFL and others pay their athletes.  No are not telling them where to go, but they are being told where NOT to go.  I do not see the rational in having an organization telling people that pay them money yet give nothing back how to run their lives.  In reality, does the IFBB pay anything to any of the pros.  They are under a contract that is so one-sided.  Other than sanction events for the pros to compete in does the IFBB do anything for the pros.  I'd like to know.  Just an honest question

[Ron]

Ok - focus guy. We are not talking about Wal-Mart, Standard Oil, or Target, or stockboys. These were examples to relate to bodybuilding and athletes.

But the NFL and others pay their athletes.  No are not telling them where to go, but they are being told where NOT to go.

 

An NFL player cannot play in Arena Football, or CFL, or European League, etc. Simple as that.  The NFL does not pay the athletes. The teams pay them. And the teams can cut you real quick if you are not good enough either. But bodybuilding is different - you compete for money - it isn't a team sport. Try something with an individual sport to compare.

[240 is Back]

I agree it's the stockboy's choice, and this IFBB/PDI battle is free market capitalism at it's finest- I LOVE IT!

And if the PDI wins and IFBB closes, you'd better believe I'd be hyping Manion's next project to take on the PDI!  Competition is good for everyone except the owners, and keeps em honest.

However, when an athlete tries to appear neutral- and say he represents the interest of stockboys, and NOT Walmart- but then publicly disses Target and makes long speeches about how 'Maybe Target isn't in the best interest of WMT Stockboys!" he is not doing his job ethically.

[thisiskeith12]

But the NFL and others pay their athletes.  No are not telling them where to go, but they are being told where NOT to go.  I do not see the rational in having an organization telling people that pay them money yet give nothing back how to run their lives.  In reality, does the IFBB pay anything to any of the pros.  They are under a contract that is so one-sided.  Other than sanction events for the pros to compete in does the IFBB do anything for the pros.  I'd like to know.  Just an honest question

The IFBB should do more I agree. Sanctioning these events is just not enough. When these promoters pay the fees, where does that money go?

[LuciusFox]

I agree it's the stockboy's choice, and this IFBB/PDI battle is free market capitalism at it's finest- I LOVE IT!

And if the PDI wins and IFBB closes, you'd better believe I'd be hyping Manion's next project to take on the PDI!  Competition is good for everyone except the owners, and keeps em honest.

However, when an athlete tries to appear neutral- and say he represents the interest of stockboys, and NOT Walmart- but then publicly disses Target and makes long speeches about how 'Maybe Target isn't in the best interest of WMT Stockboys!" he is not doing his job ethically.

 I see what you are saying, but it's also not ethical to act against the interests of your own company if they employ you. It's really a lose/lose situation at times.

[onlyme]

Also, you guys are comparing companies and major sports to the IFBB.  In everyone of your comparisons the person or member gets something back.  Whether its insurance, profit-sharing as in Walmart, Christman funds etc.  The IFBB gives their members NOTHING.  If I am wrong here and the IFBB does give the pros something I am not aware of please tell me and I will be sorry for saying this.

[240 is Back]

The problem with that assessment is that they still offered lower prices than the competition. If they didn't, others could come in and take market share.

No- they blackmailed suppliers and supply systems and threatened to drop them if they worked with any other companies.  Competitors were dry and paralyzed.

Were forgetting one thing here boys...

supply and demand...the very foundation of business.

When there aren't enough customers (fans) to support Wal-mart and Target...guess what happens to the stock boys...they get LAID OFF.

I disagree.  During times of recession, required consumer goods like food do not go down much.  Only elective purchases like jewelry and high end electronics take a big hit.  Ppl need to eat.

And lucky for all of us- the BBing industry is never going to run out of kids who want muscles and ppl who enjoy BBing shows.  Strength & muscle shows were big decades before the web, and will continue to be.  

So the demand is there! But the prob is that the IFBB is strangling the SUPPLY!  No variety where aesthetics beat guts.  No unpredictablility- we allk now Ronnie always wins!  No high-quailty shows where IFBB really pulls out all the stops.  The quality of the product is poor.

[Chick]

Were forgetting one thing here boys...

supply and demand...the very foundation of business.

When there aren't enough customers (fans) to support Wal-mart and Target...guess what happens to the stock boys...they get LAID OFF.

[LuciusFox]

No- they blackmailed suppliers and supply systems and threatened to drop them if they worked with any other companies.  Competitors were dry and paralyzed.

I disagree.  During times of recession, required consumer goods like food do not go down much.  Only elective purchases like jewelry and high end electronics take a big hit.  Ppl need to eat.

And lucky for all of us- the BBing industry is never going to run out of kids who want muscles and ppl who enjoy BBing shows.  Strength & muscle shows were big decades before the web, and will continue to be.  

So the demand is there! But the prob is that the IFBB is strangling the SUPPLY!  No variety where aesthetics beat guts.  No unpredictablility- we allk now Ronnie always wins!  No high-quailty shows where IFBB really pulls out all the stops.  The quality of the product is poor.

 But they still offered lower prices than their former competitors did, which was my point in the first place.

[240 is Back]

I see what you are saying, but it's also not ethical to act against the interests of your own company if they employ you. It's really a lose/lose situation at times.

Ahhh - that is the BEAUTY of the Rep position- he doesn't work for Walmart.  he works for the independent body of stockboys.  WMT has no influence on him, and won't even let him on the property!  WMT tells employees to stay away from him!   "He will limit your opportunities!" they say.

Bob is either the Pro BBing rep, or the IFBB liason.  There is the biggest problem.  His position is unclear and we need it clarified.

There is no such thing as Walmart employee's rep- he is a walmart HR employee.  A man who works ONLY for the athletes is not influenced by walmart, and would lose his job in a minute for playing golf with the Waltons.

[thisiskeith12]

I see what you are saying, but it's also not ethical to act against the interests of your own company if they employ you. It's really a lose/lose situation at times.

If there is a better opportunity, why not take it? My opinion is that the PDI is just a concept of what the IFBB should be. If the IFBB wakes up, the PDI is gone. The IFBB has so many tools to help generate more money around it, but it seems like no one is working on that. All it does is collect money from athletes and promoters. In the NFL, they don't take money from the players in order to be called an NFL Player, they talk to incoming players about generating income, managing money, how to deal with the media/fans, about being investive and even entreprenual. They have a prerequisite on incoming players to have at least 2 years of college completed.

[Ron]

The IFBB gives their members NOTHING.  If I am wrong here and the IFBB does give the pros something I am not aware of please tell me and I will be sorry for saying this.

OK - well - the IFBB, being the dominant bodybuilding organization and through its promoters, gives the athletes a place and venues to compete in order to win prize monies. With that, the IFBB also gives us the place to have expos related to bodybuilding and supplements, and in turn, provides many people with jobs, and the means to advertise a product, which brings in revenue, which lets the supplement companies or another other type of related company offer a contract to the athlete. Being in the IFBB increases the value for these athletes, and perhaps can (but not always) open the doors for more endorsements, prize money, guest posing, and a bigger fan base. The IFBB does not give back in monetary means, but just being at an IFBB show provides many people with a sense of focus, a means to make money, etc.

Now, I am not using other federations don't do the same thing, or the PDI won't, but at the moment, that is an answer to your question.

No- they blackmailed suppliers and supply systems and threatened to drop them if they worked with any other companies.  Competitors were dry and paralyzed.

No - they didnt. They said that if you want your product in their stores, then they need to be guaranteed the lowest price available, and first basis of the product availabilty. It is your choice whether or not you want to be in Wal-Mart. They don't blackmail anyone. As a supplier, you choose what where you want to be.

[thisiskeith12]

OK - well - the IFBB, being the dominant bodybuilding organization and through its promoters, gives the athletes a place and venues to compete in order to win prize monies. With that, the IFBB also gives us the place to have expos related to bodybuilding and supplements, and in turn, provides many people with jobs, and the means to advertise a product, which brings in revenue, which lets the supplement companies or another other type of related company offer a contract to the athlete.

Doesn't the promoter provide that? The promoters provide pretty much the venue and cooridinate all events circling the contest, including the expo. Also including promotions locally.

[onlyme]

 

An NFL player cannot play in Arena Football, or CFL, or European League, etc. Simple as that.  The NFL does not pay the athletes. The teams pay them. And the teams can cut you real quick if you are not good enough either. But bodybuilding is different - you compete for money - it isn't a team sport. Try something with an individual sport to compare.

True about the football thing they cannot play for another organization.  But also true is the NFL and others pay their members allot of money.  The teams pay them and so does the NFL.  And when you are cut you have a contract and the team has to pay that contract off or find a team that will take it over.  In all pro sports you comepte for money.  Boxing is an individual sport.  Boxers box in other federations all the time.  In fact they unify the belts from all the major federations.  What determines where a fighter is going to fight is the promoter and the money.  They can basically go anywhere they want.  

How about an IFBB pro guest posing at a PDI event.  No way in the world can the IFBB stop this.  They wuld be in court in a heartbeat and lose their ass off.  That is a fact.  They could no way stop that.

[LuciusFox]

Ahhh - that is the BEAUTY of the Rep position- he doesn't work for Walmart.  he works for the independent body of stockboys.  WMT has no influence on him, and won't even let him on the property!  WMT tells employees to stay away from him!   "He will limit your opportunities!" they say.

Bob is either the Pro BBing rep, or the IFBB liason.  There is the biggest problem.  His position is unclear and we need it clarified.

There is no such thing as Walmart employee's rep- he is a walmart HR employee.  A man who works ONLY for the athletes is not influenced by walmart, and would lose his job in a minute for playing golf with the Waltons.

 But he is the IFBB athletes rep. He is supposed to help IFBB bodybuilders, not PDI bodybuilders.