Vince Gironda was a genius and an asshole, he is the GOAT Trainer

[keanu]

This guy was way ahead of his time and most of his theories have proven true. I like the fact that Vince was always saying, try this or try that. It was all about finding what works for you, and forgetting the rest. The guys in gym today mostly look like dogballs trying to lift heavyweights all the time. I see a lot of bulking, big guts, and high blood pressure. Vince was about getting in sufficient volume, using weights as a tool, maintaining a good growth pattern without over stressing the body. Asshole or not, I would have loved to train under him. He was shutting down as I was graduating high school and ready to make the trip.

[keanu]

I mean it is 2024 now we have learned a lot since then

What have we learned about natural training since the 60s and 70s? Even the enhanced competitors I see at shows look worse than ever. It's all about big ugly muscle these days.

[oldtimer1]

I wonder what happened to all the equipment in the gym?  Hate to think it was junked.  So many actors trained there. Like Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson, Robert Blake and Carl Weathers. I'm sure there are more that I don't know about.

 From what I heard he taught sets should be done with under 30 seconds of rest and sometimes 15 seconds. No heavy weights needed.

 So many great bodybuilders trained there like Rick Wayne, Arnold (for a short period), Don Howorth, Makkawy and others. 

[Wiggs]

I wonder what happened to all the equipment in the gym?  Hate to think it was junked.  So many actors trained there. Like Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson, Robert Blake and Carl Weathers. I'm sure there are more that I don't know about.

 From what I heard he taught sets should be done with under 30 seconds of rest and sometimes 15 seconds. No heavy weights needed.

 So many great bodybuilders trained there like Rick Wayne, Arnold (for a short period), Don Howorth, Makkawy and others.

I've been using his 8x8 with 30 sec. Rest between sets. The weight is not heavy. I've been having insane pumps and great workouts.

[Humble Narcissist]

I remember in one telephone conversation i had with Bob Kennedy I asked him why Vince was such an asshole..he said he was bitter because he never won anything.
That was his opinion & he knew Vince better than most did.

as to steak & eggs getting you muscular & super ripped..cīmon man.

Vince trained some superstars thatīs true but donīt you think they never knew about drugs? get cut fast for a film shoot...or was it maybe Vinceīs programme?...
He trained for example Kay Baxter who for that time was very big

Maybe he was bitter about not winning contests. So what? His training and diet recommendations work well. Hollywood stars may use short cycles to get in shape quick but they still chose Vince to train them.

[Griffith]

The Gironda dip was very good, I should start doing those again.

Don't agree with his leg training ideas though, if anyone barbell squatted in his gym they were kicked out!

[SAF]

Reading this thread is interesting because as I've said to others so many times, there are so many so-called "trainers," but nobody talks about them 2 days after they leave the industry or die. Basically, they bring nothing to the table.

But Vince died in 1997 and people still talk about him. In the 1980s, I read everything I could that Gironda wrote and then I went to his gym and trained with him for 3 days. I learned more in those 3 days about training than from any other individual person in my life. In the early 2000s, I made a couple DVDs that sold well that showed Gironda's exercises. I also coached people successfully to national bodybuilding, fitness, and figure wins.

In a nutshell, his techniques work well, but are often greatly misunderstood. No set-and-rep scheme is magic. They are simply effective and get a result. But you have to dive in, switch them up, etc., to make long-term results. You don't get on 8x8, for example, and think that you're going to win Mr. Olympia, which is what some think.

Also, what he did understand well was how to stimulate muscle for great in terms of how much work to do. And also how often to train not just weekly, but over months. His 3 weeks on, 1 week off, for example, is brilliant. Training the same muscle 2 or 3 times a day also works -- for a period.

As far as bodybuilding trainers go, this thread is correct -- he was the GOAT.

DAS

[SAF]

BTW, for those who want to know what had happened to his equipment, originally a lot of it was sold to a Hollywood agent who knew Vince, for very little money. He set it up in a personal gym -- those are a lot of the pictures that get shown. Over time, that was sold off to individuals. A person named Daryl Conant, who owns a gym in Maine, got a bit of it, including the sign, and keeps it in good shape.

DAS

[loco]

BTW, for those who want to know what had happened to his equipment, originally a lot of it was sold to a Hollywood agent who knew Vince, for very little money. He set it up in a personal gym -- those are a lot of the pictures that get shown. Over time, that was sold off to individuals. A person named Daryl Conant, who owns a gym in Maine, got a bit of it, including the sign, and keeps it in good shape.

DAS

[oldtimer1]

I've been using his 8x8 with 30 sec. Rest between sets. The weight is not heavy. I've been having insane pumps and great workouts.

Sounds great. Sometimes we get so caught up with weight used that we forget as bodybuilders you are there to work the muscle and to do tricks to use a heavy weight like using a short range of motion, long rests between sets and a quick rep cadence.

[illuminati]

I've been using his 8x8 with 30 sec. Rest between sets. The weight is not heavy. I've been having insane pumps and great workouts.

Muscles can't count 

Just workout Intense & hard. Simple
8x8 /10x6/ 5x5/ 10x27 / 1 x100 WTF go to the gym to train/lift
Not count it's not a Math lesson.

[SAF]

Although your muscles can't count, your mind can and doing so is the way to "progress." That's a key that many forget -- in order to improve, you have to train a little harder each time. What does that mean? Could mean more reps in the same time. Could mean heavier weight with the same form. Could me same weight with stricter form. Could be a change same weight and form with less time between sets.

Basically, counting and training in a strategic way like this gives you a marker to improve against.

DAS

[joswift]

Although your muscles can't count, your mind can and doing so is the way to "progress." That's a key that many forget -- in order to improve, you have to train a little harder each time. What does that mean? Could mean more reps in the same time. Could mean heavier weight with the same form. Could me same weight with stricter form. Could be a change same weight and form with less time between sets.

Basically, counting and training in a strategic way like this gives you a marker to improve against.

DAS

Not really
Imagine how hard you would have to be training after 4 days a week for 5 years to make gains

Go watch most pros train most have been training 10 years or more, they cruise through workouts.
If what you say is true they must have been doing fuck all for years

[Taffin]

Thanks for posting that - I used to do them the 'wrong' way by facing the other way round and rotating my palms outwards - maybe this was a Scott variation or something?  Anyway the first couple of times were weird but then I really got into them - one of the few exercises that I recall ever really gave me DOMS right at the bottom line of the pecs

Haven't seen a v-bar setup for a while now though

[BB]

BTW, for those who want to know what had happened to his equipment, originally a lot of it was sold to a Hollywood agent who knew Vince, for very little money. He set it up in a personal gym -- those are a lot of the pictures that get shown. Over time, that was sold off to individuals. A person named Daryl Conant, who owns a gym in Maine, got a bit of it, including the sign, and keeps it in good shape.

DAS

https://www.youtube.com/@DarylConant/search?query=vince .

That should link to Daryl's Vince stuff.

.

.

.

Short tours of it.

[IroNat]

Although your muscles can't count, your mind can and doing so is the way to "progress." That's a key that many forget -- in order to improve, you have to train a little harder each time. What does that mean? Could mean more reps in the same time. Could mean heavier weight with the same form. Could me same weight with stricter form. Could be a change same weight and form with less time between sets.

Basically, counting and training in a strategic way like this gives you a marker to improve against.

DAS

"Training harder" is a bit off the mark but the gist of your post rings true.

You should train reasonably "hard" all the time.  Then as you gain strength, increase the resistance and/or reps.

A beginner can train just as "hard" as an advanced person but the advanced is stronger and more muscular.

Progression is the key to gains unless you are a drug monkey.

There are many ways to do it.

The double progression method is a tried and true one.

https://legionathletics.com/double-progression/

Nowadays, drugs are so commonly used to quickly improve that people don't have the patience to slowly gain strength and muscle in the old ways.

If you are past the beginner stage you might increase your max bench press only 10-20lbs in a year training natty but 50-100 lbs or more using drugs.

Anyone taking d-bol sees their bench go up 50lbs in a couple weeks.  This has removed the need to really know how to train in a sophisticated way to produce gains.

[IroNat]

Thanks for posting that - I used to do them the 'wrong' way by facing the other way round and rotating my palms outwards - maybe this was a Scott variation or something?  Anyway the first couple of times were weird but then I really got into them - one of the few exercises that I recall ever really gave me DOMS right at the bottom line of the pecs

Haven't seen a v-bar setup for a while now though

Yes, that's a Larry Scott technique for dipping if you don't have a v-bar.

[illuminati]

Although your muscles can't count, your mind can and doing so is the way to "progress." That's a key that many forget -- in order to improve, you have to train a little harder each time. What does that mean? Could mean more reps in the same time. Could mean heavier weight with the same form. Could me same weight with stricter form. Could be a change same weight and form with less time between sets.

Basically, counting and training in a strategic way like this gives you a marker to improve against.

DAS

Nope - stop counting - go to math class & they'll have you lifting weights to improve 

[SAF]

"Training harder" is a bit off the mark but the gist of your post rings true.

I agree that the "training harder" is vague, but that could take 500 words to explain better. But the gist is: try to improve upon last time.

DAS

[SAF]

Not really
Imagine how hard you would have to be training after 4 days a week for 5 years to make gains

Go watch most pros train most have been training 10 years or more, they cruise through workouts.
If what you say is true they must have been doing fuck all for years

There are flaws with your arguments. First off, looking to the "pros" as a source of training advice/guidance/inspiration/etc. is nonsense. For decades now, the #1 determinant of size is drug quality and combinations. By far. Next comes nutrition, but for gaining size and definition -- in line with the massive drug consumption. Training is a distant third. In fact, any "reasonable" training system for someone using drugs will work. Of the three, it's the least important.

BTW, what I'm saying is proven once they drop the drugs -- they look like shadows of their former selves.

The other flaw comes with the idea of linear progression over time. If you look at someone training from a young age who is natural -- or at least natural up to a time -- once they are past their "growing teenage years" (i.e., when the body is simply naturally growing), they will hit pretty much their peak muscle size and strength in 3 years if they're following a good training and nutrition program.

So what I'm saying is look at the "top guys" who started training in their teenage years, usually by 21 or 22 they never get any bigger or, often, that much stronger. That's until the drugs come in. But even when the drugs are already in, there are limits. Take a look at Arnold in 1968 at the Universe, when he lost to Frank Zane. Neither Arnold nor Zane really good any bigger in the years that followed. They were able to look much better, but in terms of muscle size, that was it. Look at countless others after -- Columbo, Draper, etc. -- they maxed out size-wise early.

The difference you see today with bodybuilders a clear 50 or more pounds heavier than those guys has simply to do with more and different drugs.

DAS

[IroNat]

I agree that the "training harder" is vague, but that could take 500 words to explain better. But the gist is: try to improve upon last time.

DAS

Yes. 

[SAF]

Nope - stop counting - go to math class & they'll have you lifting weights to improve 

But eventually, you WILL be going to math class because when you, for example, lie down on the bench press, you'll say, "Ok, I benched this for 8 reps last time, today I'm going to try to get 9 or 10."

The point is that there is no magic in the numbers -- that's 100% true -- but there is magic in getting someone to use the numbers to achieve goals to improve. Otherwise, many people go to the gym, do this and that, then after weeks, months, or sometimes years, wonder, "Why haven't I improved?"

DAS

[MajorDomo]

"Training harder" is a bit off the mark but the gist of your post rings true.

You should train reasonably "hard" all the time.  Then as you gain strength, increase the resistance and/or reps.

A beginner can train just as "hard" as an advanced person but the advanced is stronger and more muscular.

Progression is the key to gains unless you are a drug monkey.

There are many ways to do it.

The double progression method is a tried and true one.

https://legionathletics.com/double-progression/

Nowadays, drugs are so commonly used to quickly improve that people don't have the patience to slowly gain strength and muscle in the old ways.

If you are past the beginner stage you might increase your max bench press only 10-20lbs in a year training natty but 50-100 lbs or more using drugs.

Anyone taking d-bol sees their bench go up 50lbs in a couple weeks.  This has removed the need to really know how to train in a sophisticated way to produce gains.

Pretty much nailed it IroNat.

[joswift]

But eventually, you WILL be going to math class because when you, for example, lie down on the bench press, you'll say, "Ok, I benched this for 8 reps last time, today I'm going to try to get 9 or 10."

The point is that there is no magic in the numbers -- that's 100% true -- but there is magic in getting someone to use the numbers to achieve goals to improve. Otherwise, many people go to the gym, do this and that, then after weeks, months, or sometimes years, wonder, "Why haven't I improved?"

DAS

As long as you give your all each workout the numbers are totally irrelevant

[SAF]

I remember in one telephone conversation i had with Bob Kennedy I asked him why Vince was such an asshole..he said he was bitter because he never won anything.
That was his opinion & he knew Vince better than most did.

Actually, that's a myth and I have the video evidence to prove it -- though it's logged on a digital tape in my archive and I don't even know  if it will play back today.

But about 20 years ago I interviewed Bob Kennedy about Vince Gironda at the MuscleMag office. The first thing Kennedy did when he sat down was say something to the effect, "Just so you know, I didn't know Vince that well."

And the truth is, he didn't. He knew him as an acquaintance who, for a time, had the column in the magazine. But Vince actually stopped writing that column (probably out of boredom) and Kennedy had to have one of his writers fill it in. Even for "Unleashing the Wild Physique," Vince came up to Toronto to meet with him, but Kennedy told me he didn't have that much interest in the book and he (Kennedy) had to pull information out of him and put it all together.

That said, Vince himself wasn't a fraud -- I trained with him at his gym. It's just that a lot of the stuff in the magazines was made up.

DAS