ND, I'll say this, I hope Dorian appreciates what you do for him here, man you've got your position down that's for sure.
Now, let me try to take this point by point.
Size, yes 98 Ronnie vs 93 Yates size wise is a draw. Dorian may have been 8 pounds heavier but the pictures simply don't give the size advantage to either man. I've stood right next to Ronnie at the Arnold expo and if he's 5-11 as the stats say then I'm 6 ft. tall. I"m 5-10 and he's at least an inch shorter than me. So basically they are the same height. You say that 8 pounds may come in to play in a tight contest but my argument has been that Ronnie doesn't just win because of size but because of his advantages in shape, detail, separation, and finish, in addition to his size. I believe Phil Heath is an example of a bodybuilder who's shape helps him to make up an disadvantage he has in size. Didn't he just win two shows at a bodyweight of 215? He won on shape.
Now to 95 Dorian, I'm simply never going to agree with you that any version of Dorian with the torn biceps is going to beat Ronnie. No way. If the places were reversed ND, I know there's no way in hell you'd ever give Ronnie the nod over Dorian with an arm that looks like that. That arm is just too much of a flaw to beat someone like Ronnie with. I think you're not giving Ronnie his due here when you think like that. Ronnie has won 8 Olympias and in many opinions has set new standards for bodybuilding. So we're never going to agree on this one.
Shape. Here you've probably done your homework best, but here is also where you make your biggest mistake. You simply can't pick apart every single head and insertion point of every muscle and tally up a score sheet to determine who wins. That's not bodybuilding, that's accounting. You have to look at these men from head to toe, complete bodies. I simply think you're wrong when you say that Ronnie doesn't have the edge here. His body simply looks better. Why do you and I like Flex so much. He simply looks "good". Right? Now I'm never going to say that Ronnie looks anything like Flex, but compared to Dorian, Ronnie is definitely a different shape. He's also much more detailed, separated, and finished. He just is. It's so obvious, especially in the chest, shoulders, and arms. If you don't see this, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. The advantage I believe Ronnie has in shape isn't overwhelming, but in my opinion it is more than enough to make up for Dorian's edge in condition.
In 93 Dorian was a monster. I'll admit it. He had no competition. And that was mostly because he was at least 20 pound heavier than Flex. No amount of shape going to make up that gap. Ronnie doesn't have that size gap with Dorian so that closes the gap right there. And if Ronnie was able to beat Flex, who wasn't at his best but still good, doesn't that tell you right there that in the judges eyes Ronnie must have some shape?
Aesthetics. I'm going to keep this one short. I'll agree Ronnie's aesthetics leave quite a bit to be desired, but next to Dorian....well, I'm going to be nice here, but an image of a truck next to a sports car does come to mind. Edge, Ronnie. And Dorian beat more aesthetic bodybuilders by simply overpowering them. Shape can make up for size to a point, but not when we're talking 25-30 pounds.
Balance and proportion. You're simply not going to convince anyone with this argument. To most people's eyes Ronnie isn't nearly as unbalanced as you like to make him out to be. You're just not going to win any points with this argument. I'm sorry.
Density. Again, this is one of your weaker points. Dorian does indeed posses dense hard as nails muscles. Grainy crazy muscles no doubt. But so does Ronnie. Ronnie's muscles don't have that grainy look to them, but they do possess crazy detail, separation and finish. And Ronnie simply has striations in places Dorian never did. The advantage you believe Dorian gains here just isn't as big as you like to think. They possess two different kinds of muscle, neither one really better than the others in the judges eyes.
Posing, give the posing round to Dorian, Ronnie isn't going to need it.
98 Ronnie vs 93 Yates would be a war. But Ronnie simply has the detail, separation, and finish that Dorian doesn't have. Ronnie in a close fight.
Now, 03 Ronnie could beat Yates, any Yates you throw at him. The 269 pound Yates you mentioned is awesome, but those picks are a perfect example of the lack of detail I keep mentioning. He has the crazy hard grainy muscle he's known for but that's just not enough to beat a more polished Ronnie. And 18 pounds is an awful lot to overcome.
Now, let me try to take this point by point.
Size, yes 98 Ronnie vs 93 Yates size wise is a draw. Dorian may have been 8 pounds heavier but the pictures simply don't give the size advantage to either man. I've stood right next to Ronnie at the Arnold expo and if he's 5-11 as the stats say then I'm 6 ft. tall. I"m 5-10 and he's at least an inch shorter than me. So basically they are the same height. You say that 8 pounds may come in to play in a tight contest but my argument has been that Ronnie doesn't just win because of size but because of his advantages in shape, detail, separation, and finish, in addition to his size. I believe Phil Heath is an example of a bodybuilder who's shape helps him to make up an disadvantage he has in size. Didn't he just win two shows at a bodyweight of 215? He won on shape.
Well entertaining your theory Ronnie is shorter than 5'11" then that still makes Dorian shorter than Ronnie
so the 8 pound weight advantage still holds even if its slight . and you say " Well Ronnie has 95% of Dorian's size plus the advantage of shape , detail , seperation and finish . " this my friend is where you and I will never agree . to me its plainly obvious that while Ronnie enjoys a shape & detail advantage over Dorian in
some muscles in others he does NOT and I don't think there is so much of an advantage of better shaped muscles that it would render Dorian's advantages in shape & detail moot.
I'm sorry he doesn't beat Dorian in shape & detail in the gastrocnemius outer & inner head , soleus or tibialis , abdominals , intercostals , serratus , obliques , forearms , lats , eractor spinae thats a lot of advantages , whats Ronnie have chest? with gyno? thats a slap in the face of the title Mr Olympia , he has the obvious advantage in quad shape and rectus femoris detail but hell we'll give him both quads & leg biceps , biceps for sure , I'll push the triceps even though Dorian has the much better shaped side head , glutes Ronnies in 98/99 stick-out and this compromises his balance I can post pics confirming this , I think the rest of the muscles are pretty much a push , so in retrospect its a hell of a lot closer than you're giving Yates credit for but you're basing this as a huge advantage for Ronnie when in fact its not
And Ronnie 98 could just barely beat Flex Wheeler who by his own admission was off , he said he sabotaged his own efforts weeks before hand and Ronnie only beat him by 3 points , this has to be one of the closest Mr Olympia wins in the history of the contest , he barely squeaked out a W over Flex who was not as sharp as he was when Dorian dominated him in 93 , you have to seriously take into account this fact , if Ronnie just barely beat Flex he's supposed to outright beat Dorian who was so far ahead of Flex in 93 that Flex himself conceded that Dorian was unbeatable , seriously you can't honestly think Ronnie would beat Dorian from 1998.
Now to 95 Dorian, I'm simply never going to agree with you that any version of Dorian with the torn biceps is going to beat Ronnie. No way. If the places were reversed ND, I know there's no way in hell you'd ever give Ronnie the nod over Dorian with an arm that looks like that. That arm is just too much of a flaw to beat someone like Ronnie with. I think you're not giving Ronnie his due here when you think like that. Ronnie has won 8 Olympias and in many opinions has set new standards for bodybuilding. So we're never going to agree on this one.
Well Dorian in fact did beat Ronnie for 4 years with a torn bicep lol but Ronnie wasn't up to par yet so I thought that would be funny . however its possible especially when one of the heads of the I.F.B.B judging chairs said his torn bicep made absolutely no difference what so ever . and lets say he did face Dorian 95 lets say he would automatically lost the front double biceps pose , he still has enough to claim most of the mandatory poses and I think its hypocritical of you say Dorian shouldn't beat Ronnie with such a flaw but Ronnie has two major flaws in his calves , they're not pro material nevermind be able to match Dorian's and why should only the bicep count ? when it can be hidden in almost every single pose with the exception of the front double biceps shot , weak calves CANNOT be hidden they are plainly visable in every single mandatory pose .
Shape. Here you've probably done your homework best, but here is also where you make your biggest mistake. You simply can't pick apart every single head and insertion point of every muscle and tally up a score sheet to determine who wins. That's not bodybuilding, that's accounting. You have to look at these men from head to toe, complete bodies. I simply think you're wrong when you say that Ronnie doesn't have the edge here. His body simply looks better. Why do you and I like Flex so much. He simply looks "good". Right? Now I'm never going to say that Ronnie looks anything like Flex, but compared to Dorian, Ronnie is definitely a different shape. He's also much more detailed, separated, and finished. He just is. It's so obvious, especially in the chest, shoulders, and arms. If you don't see this, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. The advantage I believe Ronnie has in shape isn't overwhelming, but in my opinion it is more than enough to make up for Dorian's edge in condition.
Again I respectfully disagree with you and I alone have taken the overall package right from the start of these debates and while we can knitpick about who has the superior parts I've always maintained that the sum of Ronnie's parts don't add up to the best whole , this is due to the fact he does NOT have better muscle balance & proportion , Dorian's front & rear latspreads , his side chest & triceps shots as well as his ab-thigh overall are all textbook shots while Ronnie's front & rear double biceps shots may appear more impressive they're not textbook from head to toe.
The reason I like Flex is not because he ' simply looks good ' I like his physique because while structually flawed and somewhat narrow , he has a blend of aesthetic and muscle size and shape that hasn't been matched by anyone , he has tiny joints & full muscle bellies , he doesn't have the muscle balance of Yates yet his physique has its own muscle continuity that makes for one extremely impressive overall package , the perfect blend of muscle size , shape and aesthetics , something Ronnie couldn't match and obviously Dorian , Ronnie may appear to simply look better to you but that stems from personal preference and has nothing to do with what the judges would pick
In 93 Dorian was a monster. I'll admit it. He had no competition. And that was mostly because he was at least 20 pound heavier than Flex. No amount of shape going to make up that gap. Ronnie doesn't have that size gap with Dorian so that closes the gap right there. And if Ronnie was able to beat Flex, who wasn't at his best but still good, doesn't that tell you right there that in the judges eyes Ronnie must have some shape?
Actually I disagree with you I think if Flex showed up at the Olympia looking exactly like he did at the 1993 Arnold Classic Dorian would have outright lost but Flex was a victim of peaking to many times that year but he was a rookie Pro who just started to make money in the sport so no one can fault him but he was never the same after the car accident , do Flex was so good at the 1993 ASC that whatever weight advantage Dorian had he would not be able to overcome that package .
Flex beat himself at the 1998 Mr Olympia the general consensus of the people who are in the know was that 98 was already Flexes title but he self destructed and came in off and lucky for Ronnie he was in sharp amazing that night and won by the skin of his teeth . again the consensus was Ronnie is ONLY Mr Olympia because Flex didn't have ripped hams & glutes , so he just barely beat a version of Flex that wasn't up to par with the version of Flex at the 1993 Olympia and this Ronnie is supposed to outright beat Dorian? in all honesty I don't think so .
Aesthetics. I'm going to keep this one short. I'll agree Ronnie's aesthetics leave quite a bit to be desired, but next to Dorian....well, I'm going to be nice here, but an image of a truck next to a sports car does come to mind. Edge, Ronnie. And Dorian beat more aesthetic bodybuilders by simply overpowering them. Shape can make up for size to a point, but not when we're talking 25-30 pounds.
Aesthetics would matter is they were the caliber of Chris Cormier or Lee Haney but Coleman is neither so in all honesty thats not an edge that Ronnie overwhelms Dorian in and while Flex did overwhelm Dorian with his he still lost .
Balance and proportion. You're simply not going to convince anyone with this argument. To most people's eyes Ronnie isn't nearly as unbalanced as you like to make him out to be. You're just not going to win any points with this argument. I'm sorry.
Well I don't have to convince anyone of this its painfully obvious Ronnie's calfs don't match up with his quads , he has realtively small calves and very big quads thats a very bad combination for lower-leg balance factor in a set of glutes that stick out past his hips with gigantic biceps/triceps that make his forearms look realitively small in comparision , his delts in the back double biceps shot make his delts look small and the same with some of his most muscular shots . muscular balance is a major factor in the judging criteria and its a major advantage for Yates this may not be evident or even cared about to Coleman's many fans but it would to the judges especially when compared to Dorian in his prime .
Density. Again, this is one of your weaker points. Dorian does indeed posses dense hard as nails muscles. Grainy crazy muscles no doubt. But so does Ronnie. Ronnie's muscles don't have that grainy look to them, but they do possess crazy detail, separation and finish. And Ronnie simply has striations in places Dorian never did. The advantage you believe Dorian gains here just isn't as big as you like to think. They possess two different kinds of muscle, neither one really better than the others in the judges eyes.
Muscle density has nothing to do with striations , Dorian's style of training among the many injuries it gave him , it also gave him an unrivialed density , a thickness that made him appear like marble , and if you recall in the judging criteria "
looking for muscular bulk, balanced
development, muscular density." they're specifically asking for balanced development and muscular density those are two massive ( no pun ) advantages for Dorian .
Posing, give the posing round to Dorian, Ronnie isn't going to need it.
he would certainly need every advantage and edge he could by you saying he's not going to need it indicates you think he's so far ahead of Dorian that he can afford to lose rounds that my friend is very naive and wishfull thinking , 98/99 he was ceratinly good but not god . lol
Now, 03 Ronnie could beat Yates, any Yates you throw at him. The 269 pound Yates you mentioned is awesome, but those picks are a perfect example of the lack of detail I keep mentioning. He has the crazy hard grainy muscle he's known for but that's just not enough to beat a more polished Ronnie. And 18 pounds is an awful lot to overcome.
Any Yates I don't know seriously , the lack of detail you mention ? you have to put things in prospective those were casual gym shots taken for his own refference , he's untanned has no oil and he doesn't have the advantage of professional lighting . and Ronnie 2003 doesn't have the separation & crisp muscularity of 98/99 his back is realitively soft compared to those occasions and Dorian may have a very hard time with this version of Ronnie it would be premature to concede an outright victory just based on a few magazine scans , you'd have to put the two side by side under simlar circumstances and have them judged fairly , anyway if anyone could overcome a size advantage it would be Dorian he did beat Lee Haney in the mucularity round at the 91 Olympia despite being 10 pounds lighter
