Author Topic: Dorian Yates kicks Ronnie's ass Hulkster is a punk Bitch and fuck any truce  (Read 3503181 times)

pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12425 on: November 07, 2006, 03:52:03 PM »
Density is defined as muscle/area.

Yates 257lbs...5'10"
Coleman 257lbs...5'11"

By definition, and enhanced by superior condition and less water retention, Dorian is more dense. This is an irrefuatable fact. That gives Dorian a HUGE edge in the IFBB judging criteria.

pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12426 on: November 07, 2006, 03:53:50 PM »
ummm.. I would not call training so heavy to the point where I tear myself up even early in my career (1993) a "masterful grasp on the fundamentals of bodbuilding"

 ::)



Once again...Ronnie lived (1998O) and died (2006O) at the hands of Chad Nicholls. Without him and his knowledge Ronnie never would have materialized into the great champion he was. Dorian on the other hand did it all by himself.

sculpture

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12427 on: November 07, 2006, 03:54:53 PM »
see, this is what you do not seem to understand.

look at the pics and video's:
He doesn't!!:


Its still beyond me how anyone can look at yates here and say he doesn't look like shit

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12428 on: November 07, 2006, 03:54:57 PM »
Density is defined as muscle/area.

Yates 257lbs...5'10"
Coleman 257lbs...5'11"

By definition, and enhanced by superior condition and less water retention, Dorian is more dense. This is an irrefuatable fact. That gives Dorian a HUGE edge in the IFBB judging criteria.

Exactly , and his balance is another iffrefutable fact along with being more complete and having no gyno , if it would be very close if the two meet at thier respective bests Ronnie's lack of calves & bitch tits would cost him a victory.

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12429 on: November 07, 2006, 03:55:40 PM »
Its still beyond me how anyone can look at yates here and say he doesn't look like shit

From an aesthetics standpoint he does but thats not why he won that has nothing to do with it.

pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12430 on: November 07, 2006, 03:56:18 PM »
Its still beyond me how anyone can look at yates here and say he doesn't look like shit

Read the judging criteria and show me anywhere where it says the words "looks" or "aesthetics"

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12431 on: November 07, 2006, 03:56:22 PM »
  But actin and myosin are the same weight in all humans. As for water, the water that bodybuilders lose when they restrict Sodium before a show is subcutaneous. I think that the water that composes the muscle tissue cannot be removed because it's a structural part of the muscle, just like the contractile protein part. As for tendoms and ligaments, they're factored in with the rest of the structure and not the muscles per se. The point I'm making is that, if the raw materials that compose the muscles are the same and weight and the physiological configuration is also the same, then any increase in weight must occur concomitantly with an increase in area. The difference in fast-twitch fibers between the two is irrelevant, because I think most of the difference between the two types has to be with how the mitochondria synthesizes ATP, and the materials are the same. There are material that, due to their atomic configurations, can be "squeezed"in a smaller area and weight more than the same material in a given area. Two examples are rubber and water. Rubber has molecules that are naturally elastic, so you can squeeze more of it in the same surface ara. Likewise, when water is frozen, the molecules vecome closer to each other, hence a cube of ice weights more than the same size of water. Unless you can demonstrate that Dorian's and Ronnie's muscles are composed of different materials with different weights, then the point is mute. Like I said, actin and myosin weight the same in all humans and the water lost during the few last days leading to a show is mostly subcutaneous, so this is highly unlikely.

SUCKMYMUSCLE



No my friend, actin and myosin which make up the sarcomere which is the contractile portion of muscle cannot change.  However, your post is wrong on two counts.  First, you never only lose water subcutaneously.  Trust me, bodybuilders are relatively intravascularly volume depleted when they compete.  That is why they use diuretics; it causes sodium wasting in the renal tubular (trust me on this).  Second, the water in muscle is easily moveable in and out of the muscle.  That is why you cramp when you are dehydrated.  The electrolytes like potassium and sodium are lost during exercise.  Thus, water follows them out and a cramp occurs.  The treatment is hydration with water and electrolytes.  Also, fast twitch and slow twitch fibers differ in the amount of glycogen and water is held in them.  It ma be minute, but it is present.  Finallly, water is less dense in its solid form.  If it were not so, an ice cube would floate.  Check in the free link.  Remember, also Sucky, a muscle also has fat amongst the myofibrils.  If Dorian got rid of the same amount of fat and had less water (read any physiology text and you will see that dehydration, which these guys are essentially doing, encompasses the vascular and interstitial space), his muscles cubic inch by cubic inch would be denser.  Better analysis, if I took a cubic inch of Rosanne Barr's thigh (it is the quadricep my friend), would here muscle be as dense as Dorian's?  Hell no.  It is not because of the actin/myosin component; I agree with you there.  It is because of the increased water and fat.  Link to proof and any google reference to show that frozen water is less dense than an equal amount of liquid water.  ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(molecule)


Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12432 on: November 07, 2006, 03:58:40 PM »
Once again...Ronnie lived (1998O) and died (2006O) at the hands of Chad Nicholls. Without him and his knowledge Ronnie never would have materialized into the great champion he was. Dorian on the other hand did it all by himself.

yeah, look how successful he was at it sometimes:

 ::)
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pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12433 on: November 07, 2006, 04:00:06 PM »
yeah, look how successful he was at it sometimes:

 ::)

hahaha...you are joking right?

Dorian won 6 Mr. Olympias...and 15 out of 17 contests.

Good job shooting yourself in the foot

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12434 on: November 07, 2006, 04:01:16 PM »
Here is a bit on muscle cramps and what is believed to cause them.  Trust me, there is no part of the body that is impervious to dehydration.  Trust me, I have taken care of senior citizens with serum sodiums of 170 (when the normal is 135), and they got there because their about 8 - 10 liters intravascular volume depleted.

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_report.cfm?Thread_ID=270&topcategory

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12435 on: November 07, 2006, 04:01:37 PM »
Read the judging criteria and show me anywhere where it says the words "looks" or "aesthetics"

have you been a gimmick account from ND all along?

how dumb.

the judges have always looked for good aesthetics.  But sometimes, excessive mass gets the nod (eg. dorian over flex or ray)

just because it does not explicitly state the english word "aesthetics" does not mean it is not considered.

I can't believe you guys still don't get this stuff.. ::)
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Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12436 on: November 07, 2006, 04:02:49 PM »
hahaha...you are joking right?

Dorian won 6 Mr. Olympias...and 15 out of 17 contests.

Good job shooting yourself in the foot
no, my point was you put dorian up on some pedestal because he did not enlist the help of a guru.

I pointed out that for several years, maybe he should have.
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NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12437 on: November 07, 2006, 04:03:48 PM »
have you been a gimmick account from ND all along?

how dumb.

the judges have always looked for good aesthetics.  But sometimes, excessive mass gets the nod (eg. dorian over flex or ray)

just because it does not explicitly state the english word "aesthetics" does not mean it is not considered.

I can't believe you guys still don't get this stuff.. ::)

Jesus you're full of excuses , I challenege you to have Ron check my IP and if I have more than one account on GetBig I'll terminate my account right now .

pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12438 on: November 07, 2006, 04:04:18 PM »
have you been a gimmick account from ND all along?

how dumb.

the judges have always looked for good aesthetics.  But sometimes, excessive mass gets the nod (eg. dorian over flex or ray)

just because it does not explicitly state the english word "aesthetics" does not mean it is not considered.

I can't believe you guys still don't get this stuff.. ::)

It doesn't state it.

All you are doing is placing your own bias into this discussion. How about you try and stick to the same criteria that the judges would use ;)

pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12439 on: November 07, 2006, 04:04:58 PM »
no, my point was you put dorian up on some pedestal because he did not enlist the help of a guru.

I pointed out that for several years, maybe he should have.

Why?

He achieved the highest level possible in bodybuilding

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12440 on: November 07, 2006, 04:06:26 PM »
Jesus you're full of excuses , I challenege you to have Ron check my IP and if I have more than one account on GetBig I'll terminate my account right now .

ND, forget Hulkster.  The sad part is that they can't believe that anyone would be contrarian to their viewpoint.  This is a discussion, so opposing postions should be embraced and not ridiculed.  Regardless, Pobrecito has made his mind up on the matter and although I am not in total agreement (I still choose an all-time best Coleman), I can respect it.  To Pumpster, that makes me a pussy... ::) ::)  What a clown.

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12441 on: November 07, 2006, 04:06:31 PM »
Hulkster the pic you just posted from the 1994 Mr Olympia is one I scanned and it was a very small pic in the magazine and when I scanned it and resized it the quality suffered you're basing your opinion on this?

Remember Shawn Ray who said at the 1994 Mr Olympia " I feel I got the place I deserved. "

Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12442 on: November 07, 2006, 04:07:44 PM »
Why?

He achieved the highest level possible in bodybuilding

so did Ronnie.

whats your point
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NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12443 on: November 07, 2006, 04:08:24 PM »
ND, forget Hulkster.  The sad part is that they can't believe that anyone would be contrarian to their viewpoint.  This is a discussion, so opposing postions should be embraced and not ridiculed.  Regardless, Pobrecito has made his mind up on the matter and although I am not in total agreement (I still choose an all-time best Coleman), I can respect it.  To Pumpster, that makes me a pussy... ::) ::)  What a clown.

What ironic is Ronnie Coleman speaks very highly of Dorian Yates , I've never read or heard anything derogatory from Ronnie about Yates , he respects Dorian too bad his fans can't.

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12444 on: November 07, 2006, 04:10:05 PM »
It doesn't state it.

All you are doing is placing your own bias into this discussion. How about you try and stick to the same criteria that the judges would use ;)

You're right according to these rules Ronnie would lose , it may be close it may not but make no mistake the advantage is in Dorian's court.

When assessing a competitor’s physique, a judge should follow a
routine procedure which will allow a comprehensive assessment of
the physique as a whole. During the comparisons of the
compulsory poses, the judge should first look at the primary
muscle group being displayed. The judge should then survey the
whole physique, starting from the head, and looking at every part
of the physique in a downward sequence, beginning with general
impressions, and looking for muscular bulk, balanced
development, muscular density and definition. The downward
survey should take in the head, neck, shoulders, chest, all of the
arm muscles, front of the trunk for pectorals, pec-delt tie-in,
abdominals, waist, thighs, legs, calves and feet. The same
procedure for back poses will also take in the upper and lower
trapezius, teres and infraspinatus, erector spinae, the gluteus
group, the leg biceps group at the back of the thighs, calves, and
feet. A detailed assessment of the various muscle groups should
be made during the comparisons, at which time it helps the judge
to compare muscle shape, density, and definition while still
bearing in mind the competitor’s overall balanced development.
The comparisons of the compulsory poses cannot be overemphasized
as these comparisons will help the judge to decide
which competitor has the superior physique from the standpoint of
muscular bulk, balanced development, muscular density and
definition.

Front Double Biceps (see Figure 1)
Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet
in-line and a short distance apart, the competitor will raise
both arms to shoulder level and bend them at the elbows.
The hands should be clenched and turned down so as to
cause a contraction of the biceps and forearm muscles,
which are the main muscle groups that are to be assessed
in this pose. In addition, the competitor should attempt
to contract as many other muscles as possible as the
judges will be surveying the whole physique, from head to
toe.

The judge will first survey the biceps muscles looking for a
full, peaked development of the muscle, noting whether
or not there is a defined split between the anterior and
posterior sections of the biceps, and will continue the
head-to-toe survey by observing the development of the
forearms, deltoids, pectorals, pec-delt tie-ins, abdominals,
thighs, and calves. The judge will also look for muscle
density, definition, and overall balance.

Front Lat Spread (see Figure 2)
Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet a
short distance apart, the competitor will place the open
hands, or clenched fists, against, or gripping, the lower
waist or obliques and will expand the latissimus muscles.
At the same time, the competitor should attempt to
contract as many other frontal muscles as possible. It
shall be strictly forbidden for the competitor to pull up on
the posing trunks so as to show the top inside of the
quadriceps.
The judge should first see whether the competitor can
show a good spread of the latissimus muscles, thereby
creating a V-shaped torso. Then the judge should
continue with the head-to-foot survey, noting first the
general aspectsof the physique and then concentrating on
the more detailed aspects of the various muscle groups.

3. Side Chest (see Figure 3)
The competitor may choose either side for this pose, in
order to display the “better” arm. He will stand with his
left or right side towards the judges and will bend the arm
nearest the judges to a right-angle position, with the fist
clenched and, with the other hand, will grasp the wrist.
The leg nearest the judges will be bent at the knee and
will rest on the toes. The competitor will then expand the
chest and by upward pressure of the front bent arm and
contract the biceps as much as possible. He will also
contract the thigh muscles, in particular, the biceps
femoris group, and by downward pressure on his toes,
will display the contracted calf muscles.
The judge will pay particular attention to the pectoral
muscles and the arch of the rib cage, the biceps, the leg
biceps and the calves, and will conclude with the head-tofoot
examination. In this pose the judge will be able to
survey the thigh and calf muscles in profile, which will
help in grading their comparative development more
accurately.

Back Double Biceps (see Figure 4)
Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
bend the arms and wrists as in the Front Double Biceps
pose, and will place one foot back, resting on the toes.
He will then contract the arm muscles as well as the
muscles of the shoulders, upper and lower back, thigh
and calf muscles.

The judge will first survey the arm muscles and then do
the head-to-foot survey, during which there are more
muscle groups to look at than in all of the other poses.
This includes the neck, deltoids, biceps, triceps, forearm,
trapezius, teres, infraspinatus, erector spinae, external
obliques, latissimus dorsi, gluteus, thigh biceps, and
calves. This pose, probably more than the others, will
help the judge to determine the quality of the
competitor’s muscle density, definition, and overall
balance.

Back Lat Spread (see Figure 5)
Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
place his hands on his waist with his elbows kept wide,
one foot back and resting on the toes. He will then
contract the latissimus dorsi as wide as possible and
display a calf contraction by pressing downward on the
rear toes. The competitor should make an effort to
display the opposite calf to that which was displayed
during the back double biceps pose so the the judge may
assess both calf muscle equally. It shall be strictly
forbidden for the competitor to pull up on the posing
trunks so as to show the gluteus maximus muscles.
The judge will look for a good spread of the latissimus
dorsi, but also for good muscle density and will again
conclude with the head-to-foot survey.

6. Side Triceps (see Figure 6)
The competitor may choose either side for this pose so as
to show the “better” arm. He will stand with his left or
right side towards the judges and will place both arms
behind his back, either linking his fingers or grasping the
front arm by the wrist with his rear hand. The leg nearest
the judges will be bent at the knee and the foot will rest
flat on the floor. The competitor will exert pressure
against his front arm, thereby causing the triceps muscle
to contract. He will also raise the chest and contract the
abdominal muscles as well as the thigh and calf muscles.
The judge will first survey the triceps muscles, and
conclude with the head-to-foot examination. In this pose,
the judge will be able to survey the thigh and calf muscles
in profile, which will help in grading their comparative
development more accurately.

Abdominals and Thighs (see Figure 7)
Standing face front to the judges, the competitor will
place both arms behind the head and will place one leg
forward. He will then contract the abdominal muscles by
55
“crunching” the trunk slightly forward. At the same time,
he will contract the thigh muscles of the forward leg.
The judge will survey the abdominal and thigh muscles,
and then conclude with the head-to-foot examination.

Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12445 on: November 07, 2006, 04:11:52 PM »
Quote
The sad part is that they can't believe that anyone would be contrarian to their viewpoint.

its not the viewpoint that is the problem.

its the BASIS and REASONS for the viewpoint that have been proven to be totally wrong.

thus, the viewpoint is based on faulty logic.

for example, all this crap about dorian having "better conditioning", "better dryness" is pure bullshit if you open your eyes:



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Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12446 on: November 07, 2006, 04:15:29 PM »
You're right according to these rules Ronnie would lose , it may be close it may not but make no mistake the advantage is in Dorian's court.

When assessing a competitor’s physique, a judge should follow a
routine procedure which will allow a comprehensive assessment of
the physique as a whole. During the comparisons of the
compulsory poses, the judge should first look at the primary
muscle group being displayed. The judge should then survey the
whole physique, starting from the head, and looking at every part
of the physique in a downward sequence, beginning with general
impressions, and looking for muscular bulk, balanced
development, muscular density and definition. The downward
survey should take in the head, neck, shoulders, chest, all of the
arm muscles, front of the trunk for pectorals, pec-delt tie-in,
abdominals, waist, thighs, legs, calves and feet. The same
procedure for back poses will also take in the upper and lower
trapezius, teres and infraspinatus, erector spinae, the gluteus
group, the leg biceps group at the back of the thighs, calves, and
feet. A detailed assessment of the various muscle groups should
be made during the comparisons, at which time it helps the judge
to compare muscle shape, density, and definition while still
bearing in mind the competitor’s overall balanced development.
The comparisons of the compulsory poses cannot be overemphasized
as these comparisons will help the judge to decide
which competitor has the superior physique from the standpoint of
muscular bulk, balanced development, muscular density and
definition.

Front Double Biceps (see Figure 1)
Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet
in-line and a short distance apart, the competitor will raise
both arms to shoulder level and bend them at the elbows.
The hands should be clenched and turned down so as to
cause a contraction of the biceps and forearm muscles,
which are the main muscle groups that are to be assessed
in this pose. In addition, the competitor should attempt
to contract as many other muscles as possible as the
judges will be surveying the whole physique, from head to
toe.

The judge will first survey the biceps muscles looking for a
full, peaked development of the muscle, noting whether
or not there is a defined split between the anterior and
posterior sections of the biceps, and will continue the
head-to-toe survey by observing the development of the
forearms, deltoids, pectorals, pec-delt tie-ins, abdominals,
thighs, and calves. The judge will also look for muscle
density, definition, and overall balance.

Front Lat Spread (see Figure 2)
Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet a
short distance apart, the competitor will place the open
hands, or clenched fists, against, or gripping, the lower
waist or obliques and will expand the latissimus muscles.
At the same time, the competitor should attempt to
contract as many other frontal muscles as possible. It
shall be strictly forbidden for the competitor to pull up on
the posing trunks so as to show the top inside of the
quadriceps.
The judge should first see whether the competitor can
show a good spread of the latissimus muscles, thereby
creating a V-shaped torso. Then the judge should
continue with the head-to-foot survey, noting first the
general aspectsof the physique and then concentrating on
the more detailed aspects of the various muscle groups.

3. Side Chest (see Figure 3)
The competitor may choose either side for this pose, in
order to display the “better” arm. He will stand with his
left or right side towards the judges and will bend the arm
nearest the judges to a right-angle position, with the fist
clenched and, with the other hand, will grasp the wrist.
The leg nearest the judges will be bent at the knee and
will rest on the toes. The competitor will then expand the
chest and by upward pressure of the front bent arm and
contract the biceps as much as possible. He will also
contract the thigh muscles, in particular, the biceps
femoris group, and by downward pressure on his toes,
will display the contracted calf muscles.
The judge will pay particular attention to the pectoral
muscles and the arch of the rib cage, the biceps, the leg
biceps and the calves, and will conclude with the head-tofoot
examination. In this pose the judge will be able to
survey the thigh and calf muscles in profile, which will
help in grading their comparative development more
accurately.

Back Double Biceps (see Figure 4)
Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
bend the arms and wrists as in the Front Double Biceps
pose, and will place one foot back, resting on the toes.
He will then contract the arm muscles as well as the
muscles of the shoulders, upper and lower back, thigh
and calf muscles.

The judge will first survey the arm muscles and then do
the head-to-foot survey, during which there are more
muscle groups to look at than in all of the other poses.
This includes the neck, deltoids, biceps, triceps, forearm,
trapezius, teres, infraspinatus, erector spinae, external
obliques, latissimus dorsi, gluteus, thigh biceps, and
calves. This pose, probably more than the others, will
help the judge to determine the quality of the
competitor’s muscle density, definition, and overall
balance.

Back Lat Spread (see Figure 5)
Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
place his hands on his waist with his elbows kept wide,
one foot back and resting on the toes. He will then
contract the latissimus dorsi as wide as possible and
display a calf contraction by pressing downward on the
rear toes. The competitor should make an effort to
display the opposite calf to that which was displayed
during the back double biceps pose so the the judge may
assess both calf muscle equally. It shall be strictly
forbidden for the competitor to pull up on the posing
trunks so as to show the gluteus maximus muscles.
The judge will look for a good spread of the latissimus
dorsi, but also for good muscle density and will again
conclude with the head-to-foot survey.

6. Side Triceps (see Figure 6)
The competitor may choose either side for this pose so as
to show the “better” arm. He will stand with his left or
right side towards the judges and will place both arms
behind his back, either linking his fingers or grasping the
front arm by the wrist with his rear hand. The leg nearest
the judges will be bent at the knee and the foot will rest
flat on the floor. The competitor will exert pressure
against his front arm, thereby causing the triceps muscle
to contract. He will also raise the chest and contract the
abdominal muscles as well as the thigh and calf muscles.
The judge will first survey the triceps muscles, and
conclude with the head-to-foot examination. In this pose,
the judge will be able to survey the thigh and calf muscles
in profile, which will help in grading their comparative
development more accurately.

Abdominals and Thighs (see Figure 7)
Standing face front to the judges, the competitor will
place both arms behind the head and will place one leg
forward. He will then contract the abdominal muscles by
55
“crunching” the trunk slightly forward. At the same time,
he will contract the thigh muscles of the forward leg.
The judge will survey the abdominal and thigh muscles,
and then conclude with the head-to-foot examination.


see, this is what I mean.

if you take that word for word, that means that the judges do NOT consider:

-vascularity
- glutes
-striations
-thigh sweep
-waist size
-taper


which is really naive if you think that none of this stuff matters to the judges.

How OLD are these critera? from the 1970's??

This is the 2000's!  ALL of this stuff is considered now.
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pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12447 on: November 07, 2006, 04:15:40 PM »

its the BASIS and REASONS for the viewpoint that have been proven to be totally wrong.







our basis is the IFBB Judging Criteria....your basis is your biased view. One has credibility and obviously yours doesn't ;)

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12448 on: November 07, 2006, 04:16:20 PM »
its not the viewpoint that is the problem.

its the BASIS and REASONS for the viewpoint that have been proven to be totally wrong.

thus, the viewpoint is based on faulty logic.

for example, all this crap about dorian having "better conditioning", "better dryness" is pure bullshit if you open your eyes:





Hulkster you're under this impression that because in the most muscular he shows more striations , he's better conditioned , he's NOT especially in 1999 , he's carrying water , his back especially , somethings you have no feet to stand on , like density , conditioning and balance , you can't fight these no matter how much you try.

Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12449 on: November 07, 2006, 04:17:32 PM »
his back does not look like it is holding water, ND:

Flower Boy Ran Away