Author Topic: Dorian Yates kicks Ronnie's ass Hulkster is a punk Bitch and fuck any truce  (Read 3503351 times)

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12625 on: November 08, 2006, 08:47:27 PM »

Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12626 on: November 08, 2006, 08:47:45 PM »
Ronnie 2003 vs. Ronnie 99 most muscular:

 :)
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nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12627 on: November 08, 2006, 08:49:05 PM »
Here is the whole article Sucky.  See, fat can change the density:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/54/3/509.pdf

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12628 on: November 08, 2006, 08:50:50 PM »
Here is an article that I am not sure if I completely believe, but it is referenced.  Regardless, it is an interesting read.

http://www.strengthcats.com/JDallmusclesnotequal.htm

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12629 on: November 08, 2006, 08:54:25 PM »
Here is one talking about the variable density of sheep because of fat content (remember lean, choice, prime, etc).

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cup/asc/2006/00000082/00000002/art00003;jsessionid=4r0dg6hppsk12.alice

NeoSeminole

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12630 on: November 08, 2006, 09:05:07 PM »



suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12631 on: November 08, 2006, 09:39:50 PM »
wow that picture really says it all...

  It saus what? That Coleman's small calves are even more of a liability when compared to Dorian's diamonds, given the size of his hams? That his large, unmanly glutes represent a severe symmetrical liability? That Dorian's lats are a match for Ronnie's in width, despite the fact that Ronnie overweights Dorian by 30 lbs in that pic - Ronnie's lats only appear wider do to his smaller waist?

  Try to understand this: the only thing Ronni has on Dorian, in that shot, are hams. And that's a stretch because, although smaller, Dorian's hams were incredibly striated. Dorian's lats are almost as wide as Ronnie's. Check. Dorian's glutes are smaller, which is a good thing symmetry-wise. Check. His trapezius is a match for Ronnie's. Check. So Ronnie might have an advantage in hmastring muscularity, but he's seriously fucked-up symmetry-wise and Dorian still is a match for him in the back department. Check and game over. ;)

  Now, why do you obsses over that pic? That's one position in one angle! Dorian and Ronnie spread their lats, and Dorian has comparable width but with the added plus of all the symmetrical advantages I've mentioned. They do the back double biceps, and, although Ronnie might have  small advantage in thikcness, Dorian has him on separations.

  They turn to the sides, and Ronnie's distended gut makes him lose the side triceps and side chest flat out. Of course, in the case of the side triceps, he'd lose it even with a flat gut. ;) He does the abs-and-thighs and Dorian has superior taper, better abdominal and serratus separations and comparable lats blows your boy away. Same thing for the front lat spread.

  So, Ronnie and Dorian would tie the relaxed round as best because, even if Ronnie wins out in overrall muscularity, the fact that he has a distended gut and more symmetrical flaws than Dorian makes him lose the symmetry round. So, they tie. The judges might give the relaxed round to Ronnie for his advantage in overrall muscularity, but there's as strong as chanve tha they'd make him lose it due to his terrible overrall symmetry - because the gut is visible from the sides and front, and is the focal point of the body.

  So what's left? Symmetry and muscularity in the mandatories, as well as conditioning. In this case, Ronnie would win the front double biceps and the back double biceps. That's it. Why? Because the Ronnie has an advantage in biceps - even though they're not that visible from the back - over Dorian in the back double biceps and his back is thicker. So, even thouggh he has no calves and a womanly glutes, he might take it. In the case of the front double biceps, Ronnie's overrall advantage in arm size would be too big too ignore - because most of the biceps is visible here as well as the inner and medial triceps heads, and there's no question that the 2003 Ronnie had significantly bigger arms than Dorian when flexing them fgrom the front.Ronni emight also win the side chest because his pectoralis is thicker as well as his vastus lateralis. But again, some of his gut is visible here and he lacks calves, so the judges might give it to Dorian.

  In conclusion: the 2003 Ronnie would either tie or lose the relaxed round to Dorian, and would convincingly win only two mandatories. Dorian might win the relaxed round due to his flat stomach and less symmetrical disproportions from head to toe. He would also win the side triceps, abs-and-thigh, rear lat spread and the front lat spread - because, although Ronnie's lats are a match for Dorian in width, Dorian has a smaller waist, and thus, better taper. The only mandatory Ronnie would win convincingly would be the front double biceps.

 So it all bois down to conditioning. Now, the 1998/9 Ronnie certainly had more separations than Dorian and was quite crisp. The 2003 Ronnie, conversely, looks soft next to Dorian and has no advantages over Dorian in separations - but still has on striations, which unfortunately are not a part of an objective criteria. So odds are that, at an unbiased contest, Dorian would defeat the 2003 Ronnie, although I admite the judges still might give him the nod based on greater overrall muscularity alone. Game over and, for the gazillionth time at this thread, I owned you. The only question remaining is whether you'll break Pumpster's record of who got owned more times by yours truly. ;D ;)

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suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12632 on: November 08, 2006, 09:47:56 PM »
  In physiology however, you are wrong my friend. 

  Well, this locks it. I made a solid logical argumentation for why your claims are unlikely. You, conversely, have not disproven the my ice and water analogy about density; you only pointed out that I mistaked ice for water. Furthermore, nothing of what you've written has ruled out the hypothesis that the difference in appearance between Dorian's and Ronnie's muscles were simply a visual and not physical one. There's absolutely no way for you to demonstrate causality between physical and visual density when it comes to the appearance of muscles. Let's put it this way:

  I'm absolutely certain that I'm right; you're also absolutely certain that you''re right. Let's leave it at that. ;)

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suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12633 on: November 08, 2006, 10:02:24 PM »
ND - my calves are a little under 16" and it's safe to say Ronnie's calves were far bigger, even at 250.  In 1999, his calves were huge.  Also, I think his best ever showing was 2003.

  The fact that you prefer the 2003 Ronnie shows that you're giving your opinion, and not what would actually happen at a contest between the two where the contest is unbiased and judged objectively::)

  That's too bad, because the gut would make him lose the symmtry round flat out at an unbiased contest, or, at the very least, he'd tie with Dorian. Why? Because the relaxed round evaluates muscularity and symmetry from all angles, and Ronnie would lose in symmetry flat out from the front and sides, due to his distended midsection. From the back, his weal calves look even more pathetic when compared to his enormous hams, and his disproportional, unmanly glutes ruins it all from a symmetry perpective.

  In terms of overrall muscularity, he'd win from the front due to having bigger quads and taper. Dorian still has him on abs/serratus separations, though. From the sides, Dorian can hold his own in muscularity very well, because his lateral triceps head, which is visible here, is at least a s good as Ronnie's. Ronnie's vastus lateralis is the bigest in the history of the sport. But Dorian has bigger cvalves, ann Ronnie's weak calves only become a more severe liability when compared to his monstrous vastus lateralis.

  As for the mandastories, I have laready expline din my previous post that Dorian wins abs-nd-thighs, side triceps, rear lat spread and front lat spread. He loses only the front double biceps. The back double biceps might go to Dorian, due to his having less symmetrical liabilities from the back and, although not as thick as Ronnie's, his back had more separations and was dryer.

  Matt C, as I have told you innumerable times before: you're a moron, and I own you. ;)

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suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12634 on: November 08, 2006, 10:10:06 PM »
Absolutely; their posts are so divorced from reality that they're boring. It's Revenge of the Nerds revisited.

  Too bad I can't give an opinion on your posts, since you have yet to make one. All you do is write "brick layer" and then post the same three or four pics from the 1994 or 1997 Olympia. Or write Oliva's opinion on Dorian again and again. Owned...yet again...one more time...and...again. ;)

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suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12635 on: November 08, 2006, 10:29:12 PM »
Actually, you only told me once.  ;D

  Oh, I've told you that three times in single thread! ;)

Quote
Ronnie would beat Dorian by such a wide margin in the muscularity round that I don't feel Dorian winning in the symmetry round would do much good for him.  There comes a point where size will prevail even over better symmetry (e.g., Yates versus Ray).

  The fallacy here is in assuming that Ray had better symmetry than Dorian: he didn't. The only symmetry advantage Ray had was while standing relxed from the front. Compare them at the abs-and-thighs. Look that Dorian actually has better taper than Ray due to the flare of his lats. From the sdies, Dorian's stomach was as flat as Ray and his serratus, just as sharp. From the back, Ray's thiner waist didn't mean much, do to Dorian's much wider lat. Don't make the mistake of assuming that symmetry is an absolute: it is evaluated from different angles while contracting different angles.

  Wrong. Ronnie would defeat Dorian in overrall muscularity, but he wouldn't defeat Dorian in muscularity from all angles while contracting differing muscles. A good example is the side triceps. Look at Ronnie's arms in 2003 and you'll see that they were clearly bigger than Dorian's. However, Dorian's lateral triceps head was a match for Ronnie's in size, and only this head is visible from this angle. This, combined with Dorian's flat stomach and bigger calves would give the pose to him. Another example is the back double biceps. Look that, although thicker, Ronnie's back had clearly less separations than Dorian in 2003. And when you add the fact that Ronnie had unmanly, large glutes and no calves, the pose would go to Dorian. The abs-and-thighs also goes to Dorian, in account of his superior abs separations, no gut distension and comparable lats. Ronnie's got an advantage in quad size, but Dorian's just a separated.

  So don't assume from a second that Ronnie would win in muscularity, because different muscles contracvting from different show completely dfferent levels of muscularity. So Dorian would at least tie the relaxed round, and would win more mandatories - see my previous posts -, in acount of having either a better combination of muscularity and symmetry in more angles while contracting different muscles. What's left? Conditioning. Now, Ronnie in 1998 and 1999 certainly had great conditioning, and more separations and striations overrall than Dorian. But Dorian, even then, had more hardness and dryness. All things considered, the 1998 Ronniw would at best tie wiith Dorian for conditioning. Now Dorian simply crushes the 2003 Ronnie in conditioning: comparable separations with much, much greater hardness; Ronnie in 2003 looked soft compared to Dorian. All things considered, odds are Dorian would win, or at rhe very least push the 2003 Ronnie to his absolute limit. Is this enough punishment or do you want more? ;)

Quote
However, Ronnie's proportions were far from horrible at 287.  Other than his midsection, I found his taper was weak (high jutting lats from the front).  Calves were a weak point, but nothing horrid.  Glutes being too big?  Maybe - but since when did the judges care?

  This is the point: they don't care because they don't follow the guidelines. That's why I said Dorian would win at unbiased contest. You lose, and I own you.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12636 on: November 08, 2006, 10:35:51 PM »
Guys,

It is one thing to debate this topic as long as you remain consistent within your own criteria!

For example, how can ND proclaim Frank Zane is one of the best bodybuilders ever and talk about how bad guts are in bodybuilding, then praise Dorian "the waist" Yates and say he is so amazing?  ???  He says Ronnie's calves are such a huge flaw but is ok with Dorian missing an arm.  I don't get it.  Give me this - at least my opinions are consistent with my other opinions!!  Whether you disagree with what I have to say is another issue.

  Have you read my posts? Waist is irrelevant; what matters is taper. Get it? And the bottom line is that Dorian had much, much better taper than Ronnie from most angles while flexing different muscles. Ronnie only had better taper than him while standing relaxed from the front - although his distended gut is visble there - and maybe from the back. Dorian's overrall waist is actually smaller than Ronnie's because the gut is in the waist. ;)

  As for Dorian's arms, who said they're missing? Only in 1997! His triceps were actually superior to Ronnie's both when standing relaxed and in the side triceps and back double biceps, when only the lateral triceps head is visible. As for biceps, they're only visible entirely while flexing the arms from the front, so who cares. As for Ronnie's calves...it doesen't matter what size they are: all that matters is tha they're too small for him. My next lesson to you, on bodybuilding 1001, will be tomorrow. Be here on time. ;)

SUCKMYMUSCLE

NeoSeminole

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12637 on: November 08, 2006, 11:09:23 PM »
Have you read my posts? Waist is irrelevant; what matters is taper. Get it? And the bottom line is that Dorian had much, much better taper than Ronnie from most angles while flexing different muscles. Ronnie only had better taper than him while standing relaxed from the front - although his distended gut is visble there - and maybe from the back. Dorian's overrall waist is actually smaller than Ronnie's because the gut is in the waist.

Considering there are only 2 side poses in the mandatories and 1 side pose in the symmetry round, I'd say Ronnie has Dorian beat in taper. Ronnie has a narrower waist and the same lat width. So his superior taper is evident in all front and back poses.

Quote
As for Dorian's arms, who said they're missing? Only in 1997! His triceps were actually superior to Ronnie's both when standing relaxed and in the side triceps and back double biceps, when only the lateral triceps head is visible. As for biceps, they're only visible entirely while flexing the arms from the front, so who cares. As for Ronnie's calves...it doesen't matter what size they are: all that matters is tha they're too small for him. My next lesson to you, on bodybuilding 1001, will be tomorrow. Be here on time.

ha ha ha








delta9mda

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12638 on: November 08, 2006, 11:16:01 PM »
after ronnies column it will still say 8X mr. o..... and next to dorian it'll still say 6X mr olympia
until next year...
and ronnie will always be remembered as the greatest mr o that got beat by a "blocky white guy", TWICE. HAHA

sculpture

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12639 on: November 09, 2006, 12:55:48 AM »
Guys,

It is one thing to debate this topic as long as you remain consistent within your own criteria!

For example, how can ND proclaim Frank Zane is one of the best bodybuilders ever and talk about how bad guts are in bodybuilding, then praise Dorian "the waist" Yates and say he is so amazing?  ???  He says Ronnie's calves are such a huge flaw but is ok with Dorian missing an arm.  I don't get it.  Give me this - at least my opinions are consistent with my other opinions!!  Whether you disagree with what I have to say is another issue.

Finally this is brought to light.

ND is what we call a hypocrite.

Modifying criteria and applying it to bodybuilders as he sees fit, typically its affected by whether he has a personal preferance for a particular bodybuilder.

In the past he's often resorted to the most desperate measures to undermine the accomplishments of coleman by championing bodybuilders who he felt deserved to beat the champ. I distinctly remember his short lived praise of both chris cormier and dexter jackson.

In this thread he's went on random tangents praising the likes of arnold and lee priest.


Matt C

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12640 on: November 09, 2006, 01:16:50 AM »
a
Bodybuilding Pro.com

NeoSeminole

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12641 on: November 09, 2006, 03:33:36 AM »



Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12642 on: November 09, 2006, 03:40:44 AM »
ND is so biased his opinions change depending on what criteria he is applying with respect to Ronnie.

he really has no clue.

frank zane and steve revees are golden.

but so is Dorian "wide waist and ugly" Yates?

give me a break.

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pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12643 on: November 09, 2006, 04:36:27 AM »
It's plainly evident Yates would win 8)

sculpture

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12644 on: November 09, 2006, 04:38:41 AM »


Coleman looks incredible there.

And ND and co. give the back double bicep to dorian?

Ronnies only advantage in the shot is his biceps (which don't matter anyway)

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA


sculpture

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12645 on: November 09, 2006, 04:39:33 AM »
It's plainly evident Yates would win 8)

Pobrecito:

Fuck off from this thread.

Wonderfully qualified statement by the way.

pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12646 on: November 09, 2006, 04:40:36 AM »
Yates is destroying Coleman there. Hell, Coleman doesn't even have his taper advantage anymore, due to his wide, bloated midsection in 2003. Coleman looks like a water logged cow :-X

sculpture

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12647 on: November 09, 2006, 04:48:49 AM »
Considering there are only 2 side poses in the mandatories and 1 side pose in the symmetry round, I'd say Ronnie has Dorian beat in taper. Ronnie has a narrower waist and the same lat width. So his superior taper is evident in all front and back poses.

ha ha ha









Sucky, thoroughly humilated by neo.

pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12648 on: November 09, 2006, 04:51:22 AM »
Sucky has put all you bafoons in check multiple times.

One thing is for sure, the posting of these 93 pictures has only served to validify Yates' dominance.


sculpture

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12649 on: November 09, 2006, 05:00:19 AM »
Sucky has put all you bafoons in check multiple times.

One thing is for sure, the posting of these 93 pictures has only served to validify Yates' dominance.



Errr, most of them arent from 93.

Go back to school.