Author Topic: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.  (Read 36687 times)

LuciusFox

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #175 on: July 24, 2006, 06:35:54 PM »
You claim that you do not beleive in God because you have no "proof". You assert that because you cannot see, hear, or feel God he doesn't exist.

Consider love. You can't see love in the same way you can see your computer screen in front of you. That, however, does not prove love is nonexistent. It's possible to see the effects of love. You can see a couple together who love each other and in a child, the product of their love. You can feel love for another. Love is a complicated concept that cannot be easily defined nor explained - you just know when its there.

The same is true of God. Though you cannot see Him directly, you can see his work. The world is full of beauty and good. From a benign sunset to the miracle of birth, God can be seen everwhere. And yes, if you open yourself to Him you can feel the presense of the Lord inside you. You just have to believe.


And what prevents you from simply having faith? Pride? Anger? Fear?

Though it may mean little to you, I will pray for all of you - my misguided Getbig friends.


   Here is where you are wrong. You are saying that because the feeling of love exists, there must be some external cause, and you are also applying this to feelings of God. We are not denying that these feelings exist, we are saying that we don't believe that some god is the reason for them.

LuciusFox

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #176 on: July 24, 2006, 06:37:05 PM »
Ask yourself: what truly prevents you from having faith?

Often people are too proud to accept that there is something higher than them. It's difficult for some to concede that they are not the most important person in the universe. Pride prevents people from from putting aside their desires and putting God's will above their own. It is selfishness, greed, and pride that drive people to commiting acts of evil. Their pride won't allow them to surrender themselves to the Lord and allow Him to work through them.

Anger prevents a lot of people from believing in an all loving all knowing God. The evils and injustice's they see in the world angers them. They declare: "How can there be a God when the world is such an aweful place? If God was so great, he would stop suffereing and end all that is bad once and for all." Perhaps they were molested as a child or had a traumatic thing happen to them. "If God existed, why would he let this happen to me?" Thus all of their anger that has built up has also built up a wall between them and God. This blocks their path to him and prevents them from having faith.

Fear is another emotion that can prevent people from having faith. They are afraid that if God truly exists, they're perception on reality will be torn asunder. Some people are afraid to accept Jesus because it is more comfortable to deny him and live a life of sin. Having faith and doing the Lord's work are very difficult. Perhaps some are just afraid of getting their hands dirty.


When you accept Jesus, you cast aside all your negativity, all of your despair, and all of your pain. When you allow Him to enter your life and act according to His way, only then can you be truly fullfilled.

Your so-called "intelligence", "commonsense", and "honesty" are nothing more than words you use to deny what is in your heart. Jesus and the love of God is inside each and every one of you. You just have to choose to release it. You have to have faith.







   Meltdown! ;D

Praetor Fenix

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #177 on: July 24, 2006, 06:59:43 PM »
Ask yourself: what truly prevents you from having faith?

How about this?

1) A key passage in Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus doesn't make sense in Aramaic.
However, it makes perfect sense in GREEK, so scholars acknowledge that Jesus did not really have this conversation, rather it was some the product of the imagination of some Greek scribe.

2) Several books in the Bible (particularly the Pauline epistles) are not really written by the alleged author. Its called pseudepigrapha, writing under a famous author's name, in this case the apostle Paul. How do I trust the content of the Bible if the authors are perfectly comfortable assuming another's identity??

3) The Bible is two-faced ... even the New Testament.
It supports racism, slavery, misogyny ... unacceptable in my eyes under any circumstance.
Read 2 Timothy if you don't believe me. Slaves were the physical property of their masters, so the master had every right to abuse them sexually. Even Abraham had sex slaves.

4) Matthew and Luke have entirely different, completely irreconcilable birth narratives.

... couple that with the fact that Homo sapiens is really a primate (since our genetic makeup is 99% synonymous to the others), abiogenesis has been documented, the Earth is billions of years old, not 6000 ... and lastly, the useless slaughter of innocent animals to appease an invincible God (speciesism).

No thank you. Even IF God existed, which he doesn't, I would not accept his salvation.
"Man created in God's image" ... what a carnal notion  ::)
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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #178 on: July 24, 2006, 07:02:34 PM »
I'm not an atheist.  More of a rationalist if anything.

I don't believe in a god for the same reason you don't believe in Santa Claus.  Sure maybe he exists some place or somewhere but show me the proof first.  You wouldn't be expected to believe in Santa without proof and I don't believe in a god without proof.  But I'm not saying one doesn't exist either.  Here's something: I don't know.  And neither do you or anyone else for that matter and no matter how much you want it to be true, it doesn't make it true.  But it doesn't make it untrue either.  But we don't know and that is logical reality.

I think it's funny that religious people use logic and rationality to formulate all their worldview EXCEPT for religion.  Seems like a double standard to me.

Here is a good quote:

"I contend we are both atheists— I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours as well." - Stephen F. Roberts


Living on the fence is no way to go through life.

I admit I don't know everthing, I don't have all the answers, and I don't have all the proof. It's impossible to have all of these things.

Once you admit that, the last thing you need to bridge the gap between what you know and what you don't know is to have faith.

Sometimes you have to look inward and discover what truly prevents you from taking that leap.


Praetor Fenix

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #179 on: July 24, 2006, 07:09:09 PM »
I don't understand how everything and anything people don't understand is readily attributed to some higher power.

Hell, I don't really know how my computer terminal registers the inputs when I tap these keys, but does it mean Jesus is secretly behind the scenes, manipulating, encoding and deciphering the electrical impulses responsible??

Guess what, they did this same thing thousands of years ago too.
Natural selection and speciation (i.e. Darwinian principles) etc. had not been observed.
Demons and spirits were believed to cause illness. Now we recognize that microscopic lifeforms (microbes, bacteria, etc.) and/or DNA cores with a protein shell (viruses) are responsible for sickness.
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Ex Coelis

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #180 on: July 24, 2006, 07:11:03 PM »
How about this?

1) A key passage in Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus doesn't make sense in Aramaic.
However, it makes perfect sense in GREEK, so scholars acknowledge that Jesus did not really have this conversation, rather it was some the product of the imagination of some Greek scribe.

2) Several books in the Bible (particularly the Pauline epistles) are not really written by the alleged author. Its called pseudepigrapha, writing under a famous author's name, in this case the apostle Paul. How do I trust the content of the Bible if the authors are perfectly comfortable assuming another's identity??

3) The Bible is two-faced ... even the New Testament.
It supports racism, slavery, misogyny ... unacceptable in my eyes under any circumstance.
Read 2 Timothy if you don't believe me. Slaves were the physical property of their masters, so the master had every right to abuse them sexually. Even Abraham had sex slaves.

4) Matthew and Luke have entirely different, completely irreconcilable birth narratives.

... couple that with the fact that Homo sapiens is really a primate (since our genetic makeup is 99% synonymous to the others), abiogenesis has been documented, the Earth is billions of years old, not 6000 ... and lastly, the useless slaughter of innocent animals to appease an invincible God (speciesism).

No thank you. Even IF God existed, which he doesn't, I would not accept his salvation.
"Man created in God's image" ... what a carnal notion  ::)

you're forgeting the cultural context of when and where these passages were written (ie: slavery, animal sacrifices, etc . . .)

furthermore, the Roman Catholic Church accepts the theory of evolution

lastly, God creating the universe is compatible with the Big Bang theory. Who do you think caused it? I'll give you hint . . .


NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #181 on: July 24, 2006, 07:18:55 PM »
Ask yourself: what truly prevents you from having faith?

Often people are too proud to accept that there is something higher than them. It's difficult for some to concede that they are not the most important person in the universe. Pride prevents people from from putting aside their desires and putting God's will above their own. It is selfishness, greed, and pride that drive people to commiting acts of evil. Their pride won't allow them to surrender themselves to the Lord and allow Him to work through them.

Anger prevents a lot of people from believing in an all loving all knowing God. The evils and injustice's they see in the world angers them. They declare: "How can there be a God when the world is such an aweful place? If God was so great, he would stop suffereing and end all that is bad once and for all." Perhaps they were molested as a child or had a traumatic thing happen to them. "If God existed, why would he let this happen to me?" Thus all of their anger that has built up has also built up a wall between them and God. This blocks their path to him and prevents them from having faith.

Fear is another emotion that can prevent people from having faith. They are afraid that if God truly exists, they're perception on reality will be torn asunder. Some people are afraid to accept Jesus because it is more comfortable to deny him and live a life of sin. Having faith and doing the Lord's work are very difficult. Perhaps some are just afraid of getting their hands dirty.


When you accept Jesus, you cast aside all your negativity, all of your despair, and all of your pain. When you allow Him to enter your life and act according to His way, only then can you be truly fullfilled.

Your so-called "intelligence", "commonsense", and "honesty" are nothing more than words you use to deny what is in your heart. Jesus and the love of God is inside each and every one of you. You just have to choose to release it. You have to have faith.





Quote
Ask yourself: what truly prevents you from having faith?

" Faith: not wanting to know what is true. "

Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Praetor Fenix

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #182 on: July 24, 2006, 07:25:41 PM »
you're forgeting the cultural context of when and where these passages were written (ie: slavery, animal sacrifices, etc . . .)

Well my point was, alongside the morally reprehensible behavior the Bible condones, is that there is also a great deal of forgery, deceit, and invention within the bible. Entire passages were written in Greek that don't make sense in Aramaic, in conversation, contextually, or otherwise. Entire passages are considered apocryphal in a work where it is blatantly obvious that an editor made a substantial addition to the original content. In addition, some unknown authors would write as "Paul", "John", "Peter", etc. so they could promote their own spin on the theology.

Its funny how the women in Paul's churches are quite active in his documented epistles, yet in the pastoral epistles they are commanded to remain inactive and submissive to their husbands, AND to remain silent in church.

I seriously recommend you audit a few theology courses taught by an objective professor.
It would be quite an enlightening experience. You'd be surprised to learn that the outstanding majority of serious, respected Biblical scholars are not religious. Bart Ehrman, the perhaps the most respected of them all, basically thinks (as a conclusion of extensive research, Greek & Aramaic etymology, etc.) that Jesus was a disillusioned madman who believed that he would reign ON EARTH with God within the lifetime of his disciples, and there would be a grand judgment where the "chaff was separated from the wheat", so to speak. Its already been 2000 years, and no such judgment has taken place. If you read Mark closely, the original Gospel and source material for the remainder, written initially and the most authorized gospel according to scholars, you will see that Jesus believed the kingdom would come within 40-50 years max.


Quote
furthermore, the Roman Catholic Church accepts the theory of evolution

Well thats stupid, you basically acknowledged that your own creation narrative is wrong.
If you can't vouch for Genesis 1 - 11, why would you consider defending John 3:16 then?

Genesis says quite clearly that God formed man from the dust of the Earth, AFTER he had already created the animals and vegetation. Man was ALWAYS a separate entity from beast.
The concessions are lame, you basically let go of everything science can EMPIRICALLY PROVE is wrong, yet still hold on to these antiquated notions that extend well beyond the bounds of modern science (i.e: the spiritual realm).

Do you believe in the literal resurrection?
Jesus' claim that he was the voice of the burning bush that appeared before Moses?
Where do you draw the line??

Quote
lastly, God creating the universe is compatible with the Big Bang theory. Who do you think caused it? I'll give you hint . . .

I have as much right to claim that my Grandmother was responsible for the Big Bang.

Seriously, you don't have to take every unknown variable and attribute it to God.

Besides, in that sense, you basically reduce God to nothing more than the input energy responsible for the initial explosion. That is a long, long stretch from the anthropomorphic, personified God with his characteristic wrath, jealously, and punishment (remarkably human attributes).
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Ex Coelis

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #183 on: July 24, 2006, 07:27:13 PM »
I don't understand how everything and anything people don't understand is readily attributed to some higher power.

Hell, I don't really know how my computer terminal registers the inputs when I tap these keys, but does it mean Jesus is secretly behind the scenes, manipulating, encoding and deciphering the electrical impulses responsible??

Guess what, they did this same thing thousands of years ago too.
Natural selection and speciation (i.e. Darwinian principles) etc. had not been observed.
Demons and spirits were believed to cause illness. Now we recognize that microscopic lifeforms (microbes, bacteria, etc.) and/or DNA cores with a protein shell (viruses) are responsible for sickness.

so you believe that everything can be measured, explained and rationalized with science. you believe this despite the fact that there is much science has yet to prove, yet you have faith that it will.

religion doesn't attempt to explain scientific phenomenon. you are describing superstiton, not religion - there is a difference

Ex Coelis

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #184 on: July 24, 2006, 07:36:47 PM »


Well thats stupid, you basically acknowledged that your own creation narrative is wrong.
If you can't vouch for Genesis 1 - 11, why would you consider defending John 3:16 then?

Genesis says quite clearly that God formed man from the dust of the Earth, AFTER he had already created the animals and vegetation. Man was ALWAYS a separate entity from beast.
The concessions are lame, you basically let go of everything science can EMPIRICALLY PROVE is wrong, yet still hold on to these antiquated notions that extend well beyond the bounds of modern science (i.e: the spiritual realm).

the book of Genesis has spiritual truth.

The Bible is a collection of books. Becuase one book has more spiritual meaning than literal meaning does not sugggest that the others, written by different people who were inspired by the Holy Spirit and separated by thousands of years, also contain the same proportion of spiritual and literal truth. It implies a correlation that doesn't exist.

Praetor Fenix

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #185 on: July 24, 2006, 07:46:52 PM »
so you believe that everything can be measured, explained and rationalized with science. you believe this despite the fact that there is much science has yet to prove, yet you have faith that it will.

You are absolutely right. Science has only cracked the surface.
However, the science that has already been established can readily dismantle the outstanding majority of the Bible.  

Quote
religion doesn't attempt to explain scientific phenomenon. you are describing superstiton, not religion - there is a difference

Yes it does. Jesus attributed illness to demons.
He commanded a demon to leave the boy with epilepsy.
Epilepsy is a neurological disorder, so it CAN be measured, explained, rationalized by science.
Even IF Jesus healed the epileptic, which he DIDN'T, he was wrong as to the cause.

Jesus was resurrected.
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed.
His body was missing from the tomb. Either it was stolen (but the Bible never even hints at this as a possibility, in fact the suggestion would have been considered heresy), the myth was invented (likely, Jesus' body is in some obscure Palestinian grave as we speak), or his body disappeared, which is a scientific impossibility.

So as you see, Religion DOES attempt to provide explanations for scientific phenomenon.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no such thing as sin or evil. Matter is not created or destroyed, merely changes form.
The relative arrangement of atomic particles is irrelevant - it is a subjective value judgment.
If I shoot you, eat you, or vaporize you (of course I wouldn't! just an analogy) means nothing, no matter is destroyed, nothing is lost other than the electrical association between various particles, but this energy is compensated for by reducing the amount stolen from the adjacent environment.

Life is nothing more than an indifferent series of chemical reactions and atomic interaction.
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NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #186 on: July 24, 2006, 07:56:05 PM »
You are absolutely right. Science has only cracked the surface.
However, the science that has already been established can readily dismantle the outstanding majority of the Bible.  

Yes it does. Jesus attributed illness to demons.
He commanded a demon to leave the boy with epilepsy.
Epilepsy is a neurological disorder, so it CAN be measured, explained, rationalized by science.
Even IF Jesus healed the epileptic, which he DIDN'T, he was wrong as to the cause.

Jesus was resurrected.
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed.
His body was missing from the tomb. Either it was stolen (but the Bible never even hints at this as a possibility, in fact the suggestion would have been considered heresy), the myth was invented (likely, Jesus' body is in some obscure Palestinian grave as we speak), or his body disappeared, which is a scientific impossibility.

So as you see, Religion DOES attempt to provide explanations for scientific phenomenon.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no such thing as sin or evil. Matter is not created or destroyed, merely changes form.
The relative arrangement of atomic particles is irrelevant - it is a subjective value judgment.
If I shoot you, eat you, or vaporize you (of course I wouldn't! just an analogy) means nothing, no matter is destroyed, nothing is lost other than the electrical association between various particles, but this energy is compensated for by reducing the amount stolen from the adjacent environment.

Life is nothing more than an indifferent series of chemical reactions and atomic interaction.

Great post !!

Ex Coelis

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #187 on: July 24, 2006, 07:57:45 PM »
There is no such thing as sin or evil. Matter is not created or destroyed, merely changes form.
The relative arrangement of atomic particles is irrelevant - it is a subjective value judgment.
If I shoot you, eat you, or vaporize you (of course I wouldn't! just an analogy) means nothing, no matter is destroyed, nothing is lost other than the electrical association between various particles, but this energy is compensated for by reducing the amount stolen from the adjacent environment.

Life is nothing more than an indifferent series of chemical reactions and atomic interaction.

I do not subscribe to moral relativism. The Church believes in moral absolutes. The actions you described are wrong. The scientific explanation of how it happens does not negate that. Science has no moral imperative - it can't be right or wrong.

Praetor Fenix

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #188 on: July 24, 2006, 07:59:17 PM »
Big Poppa J:

Its cool though. I respect your beliefs. I have been there too.

Jesus fulfills some 300+ Old Testament prophecies.
In my mind, that alone was a direct testament to his identity.

However, then I learned that the most pivotal conversation in Christianity - Jesus & Nicodemus -, John 2:22, directly preceding the most famous verse in history, John 3:16, doesn't actually make any sense in Jesus' native language, but PERFECT sense in Greek.

If you can confront that detail,  yet still retain your faith, you are a better man.
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Praetor Fenix

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #189 on: July 24, 2006, 08:06:33 PM »
I do not subscribe to moral relativism. The Church believes in moral absolutes. The actions you described are wrong. The scientific explanation of how it happens does not negate that. Science has no moral imperative - it can't be right or wrong.

How is it wrong? Because society has told you it is? ...perhaps under the guise of religion??

The very fact that you remain alive demonstrates that you deprive the right to live to other organisms. We cannot survive without organic matter, so whether we consume plants, animals, or humans is irrelevant, we are still robbing life in order to maintain the course of our own.

Who made humans more valuable than animals?
We are primates, yet are we more valuable than our distant cousins, the gorilla or chimpanzee?

Besides, we are not simply 1 life, 1 entity ... we are a collection of billions of lifeforms living symbiotically for mutual advantage. These lifeforms live or die everyday, but their matter is passed on, in the form of detritus, to be consumed by detritivores, who ultimately provide nutrients to support plant life, which support the animals, which support us, etc.

The value of life is not hierarchical. It is cyclical.
Without the decomposers, we could not survive.

Not to mention nothing really differentiates us from single, isolated atoms.
Merely the respective number of atoms and their relative arrangement/interaction.
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Ex Coelis

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #190 on: July 24, 2006, 08:07:14 PM »
Yes it does. Jesus attributed illness to demons.
He commanded a demon to leave the boy with epilepsy.
Epilepsy is a neurological disorder, so it CAN be measured, explained, rationalized by science.
Even IF Jesus healed the epileptic, which he DIDN'T, he was wrong as to the cause.

You're attributing this to the language used. You are looking at the literal word used as opposed to the meaning of what's being said.

More importantly, when did you prove Jesus didn't cure the boy? You say he didn't but how would you know? You haven't proven anything

Quote

Jesus was resurrected.
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed.
His body was missing from the tomb. Either it was stolen (but the Bible never even hints at this as a possibility, in fact the suggestion would have been considered heresy), the myth was invented (likely, Jesus' body is in some obscure Palestinian grave as we speak), or his body disappeared, which is a scientific impossibility.

Jesus died, was resurrected, and rose to heaven. How does the Resurrection involve matter being destroyed?


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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #191 on: July 24, 2006, 08:18:03 PM »
Big Poppa J:

Its cool though. I respect your beliefs. I have been there too.

Jesus fulfills some 300+ Old Testament prophecies.
In my mind, that alone was a direct testament to his identity.

However, then I learned that the most pivotal conversation in Christianity - Jesus & Nicodemus -, John 2:22, directly preceding the most famous verse in history, John 3:16, doesn't actually make any sense in Jesus' native language, but PERFECT sense in Greek.

If you can confront that detail,  yet still retain your faith, you are a better man.

It saddens my heart that you have lost your faith, Praetor Fenix.

I'm not familiar with the detail you've mentioned. I am not a theologen nor am I a biblical scholar. A such, I cannot give you the complete and official answer to your querry.

I do, however, suggest that you take it up with someone who is. A priest perhaps would be best suited to offer the appropriate explanation. I am confident that if you do so with an open mind free of cynisism and bias, you will find the answer you seek.

It's not about being a better man. I do not make distinctons between one persons value or worth. We are all equal under God. As such, I hold nothing against you, nor do i judge you for your loss of faith. I will, however, pray for you so that you will find peace in your life. I sincerely hope you refind the Lord

Praetor Fenix

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #192 on: July 24, 2006, 08:26:01 PM »
You're attributing this to the language used. You are looking at the literal word used as opposed to the meaning of what's being said.

Well, the demons are personified. They recognize Jesus, shriek, scream his name.
Neuropaths don't have audible neurons that scream "You are the Son of God!"

So even if it was intended to be symbolic, which it isn't, its quite stupid since it has so much "artistic license" as to render it creditless and leave the reader scratching his head as to what exactly he can believe at face-value within the text.

Secondly, the cultural context is 1st century Judean countryside, far far away from the established provinces. These were simple peasant folk, most illiterate, so they didn't have the same sense of symbolism, or even an appreciation of the far distant future, that we share today.

I'm sorry, I would like this secret to salvation- with eternal consequences equating to paradise or sheer torture - to be spelled out a bit more distinctly without the empty rhetoric and silly metaphor.

Quote
More importantly, when did you prove Jesus didn't cure the boy? You say he didn't but how would you know? You haven't proven anything

Well I'm sure today's MDs could comfortably assert that shouting at an imaginary demon to leave will not cure any illness, let alone one as severe as epilepsy.

Words are simply audible vibrations. Chemical treatments are required to tackle epilepsy.

Quote
Jesus died, was resurrected, and rose to heaven. How does the Resurrection involve matter being destroyed?

*Sigh* I'll spell it out for you ... S-I-M-P-L-Y.

- Jesus' body was missing from the tomb.
- Matter cannot be destroyed, so his body was either:
   A) Moved to a different location
   B) Not really removed from the tomb (so once again, the Bible is lying)

Are you implying Jesus' body remained intact and he simply levitated into outer space  ???
... as opposed to disappearing, which is physically impossible?

I'm sorry, but we've been to space, and there is no "heaven" out there.
How did Jesus' body fight the forces of gravity, reach outerspace, then float around aimlessly in space. I'm sure anybody who can discover a reasonable answer would be granted a fellowship at Harvard by tomorrow afternoon.
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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #193 on: July 24, 2006, 08:31:42 PM »
By the way Poppa J, ignore my tone please.

I'm not angry with you and certainly don't intend to belittle your beliefs or arguments.

This is simply a contentious issue in my mind, one that I have struggled with for years.

I recognize that many tenets of Christianity are entirely valid.

There are simply some caveats I cannot yet bring myself to confront or accept.
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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #194 on: July 24, 2006, 08:36:09 PM »
By the way Poppa J, ignore my tone please.

I'm not angry with you and certainly don't intend to belittle your beliefs or arguments.

This is simply a contentious issue in my mind, one that I have struggled with for years.

I recognize that many tenets of Christianity are entirely valid.

There are simply some caveats I cannot yet bring myself to confront or accept.

I understand your struggles and I hope you can work through them. Its not easy . . .

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #195 on: July 24, 2006, 09:59:15 PM »
I'm glad you guys know so much about how/why the world exists....and that you want to tell all of the other lonely ding-bats your "opinions" through a bunch of pshyco-babble . Why don't you spend more time with your family........or bettering yourself for the benefit of your family, like Mark does. While some of you have great responses, this is a thread about Mark Dugdale and his DVD...........his DVD...........his DVD.

OakExpress

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #196 on: July 26, 2006, 05:37:21 PM »
Regardless of what side your are on w.r.t. the Jesus (and Christianity)... if you were wrong would you want to know?
Romans 1:20

Woten

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #197 on: July 26, 2006, 06:01:51 PM »
Matt, does this thread have subtitles for those that dont really give a flying fuck either way?
rons acunt

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #198 on: July 26, 2006, 08:38:42 PM »
I'm glad you guys know so much about how/why the world exists....and that you want to tell all of the other lonely ding-bats your "opinions" through a bunch of pshyco-babble . Why don't you spend more time with your family........or bettering yourself for the benefit of your family, like Mark does. While some of you have great responses, this is a thread about Mark Dugdale and his DVD...........his DVD...........his DVD.

 The issue would not come up, if it were not for Mark's agenda to state how he feels. You can say this is a bodybuilding board and it does not matter, but who laid the cards out?  If his faith is so strong, that is up to him. If he feels that he can do whatever he wants due to personal agenda, who is to say that isn't right? Not me, that is for sure. I do like how there are both educated and "faith-based" arguments on this thread. Big Poppa J keeps getting pw3nd or however you guys say it.  Yeah buddy, piss and moan, but will you send me $500 if I tell you Jesus said it needed to happen? ;D

Ex Coelis

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Re: Review of Mark Dugdale's "Driven" DVD + LOTS of pics.
« Reply #199 on: July 26, 2006, 09:01:36 PM »
Big Poppa J keeps getting pw3nd or however you guys say it.  Yeah buddy, piss and moan, but will you send me $500 if I tell you Jesus said it needed to happen? ;D

You're full of shit, Nutz. If you're blind to the truth, then I feel sorry for you.