Learning Thread *Jehovah's Witnesses*

[Butterbean]

My mother is one (for the last 25yrs)...I was raised as one.

Here is the official site -

http://www.watchtower.org/

Use the search function.

Are you still one?   Why or why not?

[Parker]

I want to know, if Jehova's Witnesses don't celebrate birthdays, why is that they will take a gift?

By the way, they have the shortest funerals . The dead don't care, they're dead.

[SamoanIrishman]

Are you still one?   Why or why not?

No I am not. I don't agree with certain things like

1. Shunning disfellowshipped people for a mistake...especially if they are family.

2. Birthdays.

I can see why they don't celebrate several holidays based on my PERSONAL research but, nothing backs up the birthday one. I can't rejoice on the day my child entered the world? But I can celebrate the day I got married every year...wtf?

3. I no longer believe in the "No premarital sex".

I (and most JW kids) got married when I was 18 just to get out of my parents house and start life. They teach that you can not have any unsupervised contact with the other sex..period. Even if your 35 you have to date in a group setting or with a chaperone to prevent "immoral sexual tendencies". Guess a grown man can't make moral decisions that his faith encourages from him so they gotta give him a wingman to ensure compliance.

SOOOOO many got married young, so many got divorced years later when they realized they can now make their own decisions and that the one they choose was for personal and sexual freedom vs. life partner.

4. They "encourage" not going to college and concentrating on going into "full time ministry" or "Bethel" (Society HQ)

So what if God's Kingdom doesn't come in the next 10 yrs? How are you going to provide for yourself or a family? The end is near...it's been "very close" since the Early 1900's. I was pressured into that mindset and just ended up going to college in my 20's...putting me 5yrs behind in education for the average person of my age & financial ability.

5. I also don't believe that only they (and a select few) will be resurrected and / or will survive Armageddon. It is not our place to judge a man past or present off his deeds...only God can read the where ones heart is.


I do however based on MY research, believe them to be fairly accurate in some things. Like -

1.Jesus not dying on a cross.

When modern day scientist tried to hang a 160lb cadaver from a cross with nails that where created according to common Roman nails of that period, that the corpse fell from the cross being that the hand flesh couldn't sustain the weight.

If you research Roman Law, they would routinely "bound the hands together atop the prisoners head upon the stake" back in that time, to carry out judgement for crimes...the most common punishment being the "maiming" (breaking) of both legs. Even the bible says Christ was executed along with a thief and a murderer..why would they change it for him? Guess it's possible...but unlikely.

In fact the cross as a worship symbol has been traced back to when some of the early Christians married into neighboring tribes one being a tribe that used to tattoo a lower case "t" to their forehead (like they do with ashes at Mass?) in honor of their "Deity" Tammuz. Who is said to curse wicked ones by fire (sound familiar) ie..burning their crops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammuz

Not saying this is fact on where Catholicism has originated it's just too coincidental for me...not to mention proved physically impossible.

2.  I don't believe in hell anyways. So that doctrine was easy to accept. I refuse that a God that is so "Loving" as our "Father" would ever let such a place exist.

Sure, maybe he'd punish us as we do our kids, but to subject them to everylasting torment ? No parent would do that so in turn, that is NOT the God I believe in.

[Parker]

I remember seeing some of the pamphlets at relatives houses. I laughed at one that said that if you act out at your parents you will do drugs, then have sex, the become a f-up.

And I always wonder, "Why is is that white people always get to go heaven" Or,"So there were no Asian or African people in the Biblical days?" I guess they didn't exist....or were in hell for being immoral.

[Butterbean]

Thanks for all that info Samoan Irishman!

I do however based on MY research, believe them to be fairly accurate in some things. Like -

1.Jesus not dying on a cross.

When modern day scientist tried to hang a 160lb cadaver from a cross with nails that where created according to common Roman nails of that period, that the corpse fell from the cross being that the hand flesh couldn't sustain the weight.

If you research Roman Law, they would routinely "bound the hands together atop the prisoners head upon the stake" back in that time, to carry out judgement for crimes...the most common punishment being the "maiming" (breaking) of both legs. Even the bible says Christ was executed along with a thief and a murderer..why would they change it for him? Guess it's possible...but unlikely.

The test of hanging a corpse on a cross and having it "not work" should not be your criteria for not believing Jesus died on the cross. 

When people were crucified, they were still alive.  It was hard for them to breathe so they would "push themselves up" with their legs to help them breathe and alleviate the pain from their hands pulling on the nails.

*Ultimately, the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. To breathe, the victim was forced to push up on his feet to allow for inflation of the lungs. As the body weakened and pain in the feet and legs became unbearable, the victim was forced to trade breathing for pain and exhaustion. Eventually, the victim would succumb in this way, becoming utterly exhausted or lapsing into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the stipes and inflate his lungs. Due to the shallow breathing, the victim’s lungs would begin to collapse in areas, probably causing hypoxia. [In regard to Jesus] ...Due to the loss of blood from the scourging, the victim probably formed a respiratory acidosis, resulting in an increased strain on the heart, which beats faster to compensate. Fluid would also build up in the lungs. Under the stress of hypoxia and acidosis, the heart would eventually fail. (from allaboutjesuschrist.org)*

If the victim did not die quickly enough for the soldiers (death by crucifixion takes hours) they would break their legs so they would no longer be able to use them to push their weight up and thus, die more quickly.  Christ was crucified between 2 other men.  The soldiers broke their legs but when they went to Jesus, He was already dead so there was no need to break His legs.  This fulfills yet another prophecy that He was/is the Messiah:

Psalm 34:20..."he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken."

[Butterbean]

I remember seeing some of the pamphlets at relatives houses. I laughed at one that said that if you act out at your parents you will do drugs, then have sex, the become a f-up.

....so that's what happened to me

And I always wonder, "Why is is that white people always get to go heaven" Or,"So there were no Asian or African people in the Biblical days?" I guess they didn't exist....or were in hell for being immoral.

   Is that a teaching of Jehova's Witnesses?

[Parker]

....so that's what happened to me
    Is that a teaching of Jehova's Witnesses?

No, just the pamphlets at the time didn't have anybody of color. But, none of my folks had questioned that. Kinda like the Flintstones cartoon or the Jetson's cartoon.

[Butterbean]

Oh, well most of the JW's that go door to door around here are black.  I had the pleasure of speaking w/2 of them....one, an older lady who was somewhat knowledgable of where certain verses are in the bible but took things out of context almost everytime.  The other was a younger gal who was actually surprised that certain scriptures were in the bible such as ones about Salvation being a free gift from God...and that you didn't have to and can't earn and can't lose your Salvation.

I gave her my email so we could chat further but I never heard from her.  I think the older lady may have put the kibash on that.

[Parker]

Most of the JW's I have met, think they know everything about the Bible, like they wrote it . And if I don't follow what they say, i won't be one of the 144,000 (I don't think they will be either) There is one older guy that I have  seen when helping my father with yard work. He only comes by, when I am helping my dad, one day he said, "I can tell you are a hard worker, because your father is", It kinda made me feel proud of my dad, then the due handed me a JW pamphlet. I listened to him, and was polite, and i vibed with him. I felt that, him being older, that there was a lot of wisdom that I could glean from him. And he wasn't being arrogant.

[Butterbean]

i won't be one of the 144,000

Parker, who do they say the 144,000 are?

[Parker]

Parker, who do they say the 144,000 are?

You got me, I bleive the 144,000 are the true beleivers who will get into heaven. Iforgot what what it says in the bible...

[SamoanIrishman]

The 144,000 are the select few choosen by JC to serve directly under him when he assumes the throne after the war of Armageddon. (Revelations Chapter 7) They are the only ones allowed to ingest the wine and unfermented cakes during the passover (nissan 14th..April to us..days vary as ancient days started in what we call the afternoon..it's always during a full moon though)

All others are believed to live in eternal paradise here on Earth as Adam and Eve did. They were perfect, and not supposed to die (in Genesis somewhere). That they say was Gods original purpose...before they screwed it up.

PS - I searched through some of my mom's stuff that dates back to the early 80's and there were plenty other races depicted. NONE negatively..in fact the pictures usually had 2 or more of the major races in them - White, Black, Hispanic, Asian


Here's the explanation to the Cross thing -
http://www.watchtower.org/e/200604a/article_01.htm


Racism is viewed as un-Christian to JW's. They are very neutral to many things..including politics. They don't vote ect...Hitler even sent them to concentration camps with the Jews

Stella - btw...the title of this thread contains a spelling error ... Jehovah (Psalms 83:18)

[loco]

Is this true?  I've heard it before, but I don't know if it's true.
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=7500

Charles Taze Russell, founder of the movement in 1872
what kind of a man was this Charles Taze Russell? He was certainly an expert at making money, whether in the drapery business until he sold it, or by investments in mines and real estate, or by the selling of his books, and of "miracle wheat." Unfortunately he was legally compelled to restore to the purchasers the money he had obtained for his miracle wheat, on the score that it had been dishonestly extracted from them. But honesty was not Pastor Russell's predominant virtue. Under oath in court at Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, in 1913, he declared in support of his claims to be an expert Scripture scholar that he knew Greek. Handed a Greek New Testament, he was forced to admit that he did not know even the Greek alphabet; and that he knew nothing of Hebrew or of Latin, despite his pretensions to a knowledge of those languages also. Not to know such languages is no crime, of course. But to make lying pretensions to a knowledge of them is scarcely in keeping with claims to be a prophet of God; whilst to do so under oath is the still worse sin of perjury.

Not less unbecoming in this self-styled prophet was the fact that his wife divorced him in 1897 on charges of adultery with two different women, a stenographer and a housemaid; and that the judge flayed him, after granting the divorce, for his general ill-treatment of his wife. To avoid payment of the alimony ordered by the court, Russell promptly transferred his property, worth over $240,000, to the "Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society."

Russell died on October 31st, 1916, in a Santa Fe train near Pampa, Texas, on his way to Kansas City; and he is now seldom mentioned by the Witnesses of Jehovah. This man, once held by his followers to rank next after St. Paul in the "gallery of fame," has been practically forgotten by the later generation dominated by his successor.

[loco]

How about this one?

Judge J. F. Rutherford

At the time of Russell's death there was a man named Joseph Franklin Rutherford serving a prison sentence in Atlanta jail on a charge of sedition during the first world war then raging. This man, on his release from prison, took over control of the Russellite organization.

Rutherford was born in 1869, and became a lawyer in 1892. Chosen as attorney for the organization, he was shrewd enough to see its possibilities, and threw in his lot with it. As president, he wished to be known by the impressive title of "Judge Rutherford," though he was never officially appointed as a judge. His forceful personality set the movement definitely on its feet. He poured out unending books and pamphlets to keep the publishing business going, teaching new doctrines of which Russell had never heard and often quite opposed to what Russell himself had taught. It was he, as we have seen, who devised in 1931 the new title, "Witnesses of Jehovah." The prominence he gave to the slogan, "Millions now living will never die," brought crowds flocking to hear him wherever he was billed to speak. But, alas, he was not one of the millions fated not to die.

On January 8th, 1942, judge Joseph Franklin Rutherford bade goodbye to this world in the palatial villa he had built at San Diego, California, as an official residence pending the return of the Lord to judge the living and the dead.

[SamoanIrishman]

Hell I don't know! ..lol

I tried to ask my Mother about this and she won't talk about it nor read it...she says it's "Apostate" writings of which they are NEVER to read. They believe Apostates (people who try to turn people away from their religion...especially if they were at one time in it) do the only unforgivable sin - blasphamy against God himself.

She said that if I try to make her read these thing or talk to her about it she can no LONGER HAVE ME OVER TO HER HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...haven't spoken to her since....don't think I will for a while.

PS- I would LOVE to see ACTUAL documentation of this..so far it's hearsay. One religion trying to cut down another..though they both believe in God and JC?!...

Maybe I'll send her the proof if I ever get it...in the mail.

[Butterbean]

Stella - btw...the title of this thread contains a spelling error ... Jehovah (Psalms 83:18)

Fixed.  Thanks SamoanIrishman

[SamoanIrishman]

Stella wrote -


"The test of hanging a corpse on a cross and having it "not work" should not be your criteria for not believing Jesus died on the cross. 

When people were crucified, they were still alive.  It was hard for them to breathe so they would "push themselves up" with their legs to help them breathe and alleviate the pain from their hands pulling on the nails.

*Ultimately, the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. To breathe, the victim was forced to push up on his feet to allow for inflation of the lungs. As the body weakened and pain in the feet and legs became unbearable, the victim was forced to trade breathing for pain and exhaustion. Eventually, the victim would succumb in this way, becoming utterly exhausted or lapsing into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the stipes and inflate his lungs. Due to the shallow breathing, the victim’s lungs would begin to collapse in areas, probably causing hypoxia. [In regard to Jesus] ...Due to the loss of blood from the scourging, the victim probably formed a respiratory acidosis, resulting in an increased strain on the heart, which beats faster to compensate. Fluid would also build up in the lungs. Under the stress of hypoxia and acidosis, the heart would eventually fail. (from allaboutjesuschrist.org)*

If the victim did not die quickly enough for the soldiers (death by crucifixions takes hours) they would break their legs so they would no longer be able to use them to push their weight up and thus, die more quickly.  Christ was crucified between 2 other men.  The soldiers broke their legs but when they went to Jesus, He was already dead so there was no need to break His legs.  This fulfills yet another prophecy that He was/is the Messiah:

Psalm 34:20..."he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken."
[/quote]

Funny enough last night on the "Naked Archaeologist" they did an entire show on Crucifixions (sp?). They proved that the long time belief of suffocation as the cause of death is no longer supported. The test subject couldn't last longer than 4 minutes in the position! One guy did last longer but had to be taken down being that his heart rate dip to dangerous levels. Instead they believe it is a mixture of shock, heart failure.

Also, there is evidence that most where done via hands above the head (like diving in a pool, try it and take a deep breath..hard huh?) where it was with rope or nails. Nails piercing a little below the wrist (so wrist bones support body weight) so that suffocation does come into play. One thing that was mentioned is that ropes where used more often being that you could live up to 3 days (torture, assuming they could hold their bodyweight up with their legs..hence why it was common to break their legs) they theorize vs. up to 8hrs with nails. (blood loss, shock, dehydration)

They even uncovered a heel bone with a nail still in it on one dig! Only 1 has ever been found...but 1 is enough to prove that it was a real form of murder. They theorize that not many are found cause nails were not only expensive (thus stolen) but also considered a "lucky charm"! (nails used in the crucification rituals)...

anyways...a real cool show, check it out if you can when it re-runs.

Also, if you translate the Hebrew - Greek work used for "cross" in most translations...it is translated wrong. Strong's, Thayer's, and Vine's dictionaries leave little or no room for doubt that "stauros", translated "cross," actually translates to "an upright stake" or "pole". Ergo...

It is highly unlikely that Lord Jesus was crucified on a T-shaped cross. Instead, He was probably crucified on an upright stake...which was common Roman practice. While there is no evidence either way on how Jesus died, there is evidence and documentation on the Romans and their "common" practices. Not says they didn't draw outside the lines every once in a while.

[loco]

Funny enough last night on the "Naked Archaeologist" they did an entire show on Crucifixions (sp?). They proved that the long time belief of suffocation as the cause of death is no longer supported. The test subject couldn't last longer than 4 minutes in the position! One guy did last longer but had to be taken down being that his heart rate dip to dangerous levels. Instead they believe it is a mixture of shock, heart failure.

Also, there is evidence that most where done via hands above the head (like diving in a pool, try it and take a deep breath..hard huh?) where it was with rope or nails. Nails piercing a little below the wrist (so wrist bones support body weight) so that suffocation does come into play. One thing that was mentioned is that ropes where used more often being that you could live up to 3 days (torture, assuming they could hold their bodyweight up with their legs..hence why it was common to break their legs) they theorize vs. up to 8hrs with nails. (blood loss, shock, dehydration)

They even uncovered a heel bone with a nail still in it on one dig! Only 1 has ever been found...but 1 is enough to prove that it was a real form of murder. They theorize that not many are found cause nails were not only expensive (thus stolen) but also considered a "lucky charm"! (nails used in the crucification rituals)...

anyways...a real cool show, check it out if you can when it re-runs.

Also, if you translate the Hebrew - Greek work used for "cross" in most translations...it is translated wrong. Strong's, Thayer's, and Vine's dictionaries leave little or no room for doubt that "stauros", translated "cross," actually translates to "an upright stake" or "pole". Ergo...

It is highly unlikely that Lord Jesus was crucified on a T-shaped cross. Instead, He was probably crucified on an upright stake...which was common Roman practice. While there is no evidence either way on how Jesus died, there is evidence and documentation on the Romans and their "common" practices. Not says they didn't draw outside the lines every once in a while.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=148931.msg2097196#msg2097196