Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP

[legbreaker]

 I just want to point out that GH has NOT been common place for 20 + years.  Yes it was being used by few...very few compared to the majority of BB's.  Around 86 or so a kid I knew had been prescribed Genentec gh for growth...somewhere around 87 he began selling it to SOME BB's in the NY area....they would use a very small amount compared to today....It was so uncommon in NY gyms at that time.and very difficult to get...Very few insurance co would pay for it and many pharms didn't even hold it.  Then the russian gh got a bit popular and then gh started popping up all over.  When a person uses so much that acromegaly begins that's very unhealthy.  The skeletal changes are not the only thing going on...the heart is growing abnormally large and the chamber size decreases with increased thickness of the walls.  Anyway, I would say that GH has been a normal part of a competitors program for the past 15 years, but the doses got way way out of hand maybe the past 10 for most people....Around the time "wasting and aids " studies with 18 iu became popular.  Don Cotler at St.Lukes is the doc that lead most GH and wasting studies.  

[nicorulez]

Interesting article from a world expert.  It is interesting that when you slammed Adam Empire about his point that steroids could worsen glucose tolerance, you were wrong.  It does increase glucose intolerance.  Believe it or not Johnny, you and your steroid abusing friends who refuse to at least admit the risk are wrong.  Whether there are more deaths that can be directly related, don't you at least admit that taking a hormone, any hormone, in quantities far in excess of what your body produces naturally is not healthy.  Have you ever heard of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis.  It is easily shut down by external hormones.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Dermatology/Steroids/tb/729

[nicorulez]

Now granted, this is from an anti-steroid website, but it is run by people who are athletes.  Believe what you will Johnny.  Woten, i agree that a lot of things are overblown, but you seem to be disregarding the mountain of clinical evidence that points to the dangers of steroids/GH etc.  Granted, there are few if any clinical studies as anabolic steroids as used by athletes are illegal.  Thus, it is mostly case reports.  However, why else would seemingly healthy twenty and thirty year old individuals die of cardiovascular failure.  I put two and two together and assume the juice at least played a part.

http://www.athletesagainststeroids.org/pgs/steroiddeaths.shtml

While I completely disagree with Munzer and Momo (they died of diuretics), what I found most interesting is that some of these athletes committed suicide.  Anabolics are associated not only with roid rage but depression.  Thus, maybe we should not only consider physiological adverse effects but emotional/psychiatric ones also. 

[johnnytosh]

I am only making a point that I am very passionate about.  47% of all dialysis patients in this country are there because of diabetes.  Yes, shootfighter is correct that 90% are overweight, however I have over 200 dialysis patients (about 100 with diabetes).  I would say quite confidently that at least 10-15 of these patients are not your typical overweight slots.  In fact, one was an ex-college football star and is in no way overweight.  I have chronic kidney disease patient's with diabetes; many are not grossly overweight.  Some in fact are quite thin.  Johnny gets on this board and essentially bashes anybody who is a type 2 diabetic.  He calls them lazy, slothful and obese.  His arrogance and attitude are astonishing.  I tried to point out initially that genetics were a major cause also.  He essentially shot me down without even addressing the issue.  Thus, I had to call him out and show him the truth.  PI, sometimes when you make a point you have to drive it home.  Most of my colleagues could give a rat's ass that I post on GetBig.  The majority of physicians I work with do not even practice what they preach.  Thus, it is not an issue.  I don't go about ragging on individuals on this board.  I try to educate to the best of my ability.  The arrogance of this schmoe, however, pissed me off.  Thus, I essentialy emasculated him on a message board.  Sorry that I was not overly professional, but even our Senators and Congressman go off at times.  I apologize if I offended you.  However, what I stated was the truth.  I never denied the fact that obesity is rampant.  Look at my previous post about how 50% if Americans are overweight.  I just tried to educate the masses that being fat and lazy is not the only risk factor. 

I NEVER used the words LAZY-SLOTHFUL-OBESE !!  SO dont say I did..  This whole discussion started because I stated that BB's enjoy freedom from type-2 diabetes because of resistance training.. So what do you do ?  You send me a fucking link that talks about children using GH, !! And the link says that the risks are very low anyway !!(DUH)...  THen you send me a few links of athletes with TYPE 1, (are you retarded ?) which has nothing to do with what we were talking about !!  and you act like you owned me.

Then you call me "Stud" "Big-Boy" etc.  All I asked for was the name of ONE (1) ACTUAL BB that is
TYPE 2 !!
ANd you sat there MUTE !!!!  Like Helen Keller !! RESISTANCE TRAINING outweighs GH as far as insulin sensitivity !!

As far as the PIMA indians, I conceed that point to you, but what the f**k does that have to do with BB in the United States ??  Nothing !!

Your'e the assclown that seems to want to put all your patients on pharmaceuticals, while I want them to exercise & eat right. But you simultaneously attack me for being "PRO-DRUGS", simply because I stated that the risks of AAS as it realtes to Type-2 diabetes are overstated.. You have no idea where I stand on the drug issue, and it shows in your comments. YOU are the person that is "PRO-DRUGS" and you can't even see it

I NEVER said diabetics were LAZY-OBESE-SLOTHFUL (SLOTHFUL ?_ did you just get done watching the movie "7" or something ?)  WHat the typical diabetic's problem is a lack of knowledge, and a feeling of defeat, because   you guys keep telling them it's NOT their fault, it's GENETICS !!
You have got to hit them with the TRUTH !! Or they will NEVER beat their DIABETES,
it just becomes a slow death..

I don't care if you're an MD or not !! The TRUTH is that If both you & I were given 10 patients with the chronic illnesses, I would cure more of them than you would !! Because the medical community AINT CURING ANYBODY of the chronics  !!
10 years from now your 10 patients would still be coming to you for Fosamax, Lipitor, Insulin, Glucophage !

As far as me being arrogant...You are CORRECT !! I AM !!
When it comed to LIFE & FUCKING DEATH of an idividual, the TRUTH must be told.
I know you are not used to people "talking back" to you, being that you are an MD.
But when you bump up against someone that has an equal understanding of the disease & cure,
you are no longer a sacred cow..  So get used to it.
RESISTANCE TRAING CURES TYPE 2 !!!

You do have alot of good information, I appreciate your knowledge...I TRULY DO !!
NOBODY KNOWS IT ALL !!

The bottom line, and final statement I will make on this subject is that all your talk about BB becoming diabetic was HORSESHIT !! Because you haven't produced a single name..


I am done with this because we are just going in circles..

[legbreaker]

Nicorulez....the second article (the one that states that some users use because of a past history of sexaul abuse) is f--- ridiculous...and the next one (mentioning the wreslers) is just pathetic and sensationalism at it's best.  I wrestle, know the industry very well and can tell you that what is killing pro wrestlers is PAIN KILLERS!!!!  That's it...the bottom line...those guys, bless them, have incredibly addictive personalities.  The drugs commonly prescribed at ER every day are more dangorous then a couple cc of testosterone or deca durabolin can ever be.  My wife went to the ER the other day for what she believd was an allergic reaction....after figuring out it was simply some abdominal pain from a period they prescribed her pain drugs, hahah, what a joke.  Now I respect doctors 100%, but the drugs that are ruining society are the ones prescribed everyday such as depression, anxiety and pain drugs and the whole world is getting addicted.  I have friends that are so addicted to these things and walk around LEGALLY high every hour of the day.  They are no different than the guy on the corner looking for a fix, but they got a few dollars in their pocket and a job so no one notices.  With that said I DO know for a fact that steroids and gh and all other BB drugs are potentially dangerous and are hurting many uneducated people and young kids today.  Abuse is out of hand.  As a docter, however, I think you should look more carefully to the articles you use as an example and perhaps look to studies with normal amounts of testosterone in the New England Journal Of Medicine or a Dr.Rudman  (sp) on gh (normal amounts) studies.  A book was written over 25 years ago by Dr. Golman and Dr. Rudman called "Death in the locker room" speaking from a one sided view on the dangers of steroids and GH. Wouldn't you know it that Dr. Rudman would go on to co author a book called "grow young with HGH" 20 years later speaking of the benifits of gh use.  Research my doctor friend, research.      

[nicorulez]

Legbreaker, I could care less about the reason why people use steroids, the initial author succinctly summarizes the known risks about anabolic steroids.  Whether you wish to believe them is your deal.  All I know, if you abuse and get liver failure, liver cysts or cardiovascular disease; don't blame the messenger.  I am just pointing out the physiological facts.  However, the psychological effects of steroids are also well known.  As for the anti-aging, you need to read as it refers to the elderly who have lost their natural GH.  I am talking about twenty and thirty year old BB who are taking super-physiological doses to improve athletic performance.  Big difference.  Trust me legbreaker, I read a lot and know this issue well.  In no way would a legitimate doctor of medicine endorse young men taking Gh to improve performance; not an ethical doc anyway.

Now Johnny, you get a fight for nothing.  I never once stated that the BB lifestyle makes you diabetic.  I stated that a bodybuilder who abused GH (as Anthony may have well done), would have put himself at risk for diabetes.  It has nothing to do with weightlifting and exercise; it is the drug that has that known side effect.  That is all.  I concur with you 100% that weight loss and exercise are vitally important.  At least read my threads before thinking I am a pill dispenser.  The first thing I tell all my patient's to do with glucose intolerance is go on a low glycemic diet with lots of fiber, low cholesterol and saturated fat.  I then tell them to start walking (you have to see my patients and understand that running is not feasible) 3 times a week initially and gradually increase to daily exercise of 30-60 minutes daily. 

I once again tell all of my obese patient's who are obese that it is worsening their diabetes without a doubt.  My issue with you is that you characterized all type 2 diabetics as such.  You are plain wrong.  Understand this.  Go read a medical journal or research it on Google.  Ninety percent are indeed overweight or obese but 10 percent (over 1000000 type 2 diabetics) are not obese.  Thus, this puts the genetics issue into play.  Once again, if being fat and eating high glycemic foods was the only risk, then over 150 million Americans would be diabetic as that is the percentage who are overweight.  Obviously, there is something more to it than just obesity.  I feel that you have a genetic predisposition and if you do not exercise and gain weight, you are more likely to manifest the disease.  Is that simple enough for you?  Also, resistance training does not cure diabetes; nothing does.  Diabetes can be controlled; it can be controlled so well you do not need meds.  However, if that same person stopped, he would become glucose intolerant and diabetic again.

Here is a synopsis of the Human genome project and their work with diabetes;

http://darwin.nmsu.edu/~molbio/diabetes/disease.html

You may dismiss it but a lot of scientist much brighter than you and I are working on it actively.  So, although you think you are an expert, you are actually very misinformed.  However, I am sure the hundreds of testimonials that you have heard at GNC supplant all of the clinical evidence that has been compiled. 

[nicorulez]

Legbreaker, your good Dr. Rudman was summarily dismissed by researchers at UCSF (one of the finest medical institutions in the world).  Guess for the elderly, GH is not the fountain of youth.  Not surprising.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990DE2D81139F936A25757C0A960958260

[legbreaker]

The number one factor to longevity (aging only) is genetics.  I do not believe that Gh would increase the number of years a person lives, but maintaining normal physiological levels along with lifestyle modifications will make one live a life with more quality.  Their are many many other factors that lend itself to ones health and longevity; diet, lifestyle, stress, illness, etc.  As a doc, what do ya gotta say about the number of pain drugs prescribed today, the number of pain managment clinics popping up all over the place to provide atticks a way to continue use and their association with addiction and death?  What about the enormously increasing supply of behavior drugs and their addiction rate. 

Steroids are a problem among youth and abused in BB...but this is a pharmaceutical society we live in from adolesence on....I think doctors got to stop prescribing these drugs so easily and maybe the addictive personality's will decline with new generations. 

While your finding research papers look up Bob Delmonteque......He's spoken many times on GH, aging, hormones and quality of live issues.  He's around 84 and looks better than most 22 year olds.  Reasonable use and health....NOT abuse.

[legbreaker]

Legbreaker, your good Dr. Rudman was summarily dismissed by researchers at UCSF (one of the finest medical institutions in the world).  Guess for the elderly, GH is not the fountain of youth.  Not surprising.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990DE2D81139F936A25757C0A960958260

I need to correct the man involved with both books...Ronald Klatz (Death in the Locker room and grow young with hgh...I just looked at them and realized my error.

[Earl1972]

I could give a rat’s ass what anyone says about Billy on this forum, where it is mandatory to say shit just to get a rise out of people.  You come to expect it.  I know why Billy passed away.  I know what type of person he was.  Nothing an anonymous person on this board says, can change that.   



 

sure you wouldn't have cared it's probably easier to say that now after he's been dead for a while and you've accepted he's gone

it would've bothered you if somebody posted a comment like that the day of his death don't deny it

what was the official cause of death anyways?

E

[nicorulez]

Legbreaker, I am a nephrologist.  I don't advocate NSAID abuse at all for any of my patient's.  First, I tell them that the reason a lot of them have knee and back pain is their obesity. Thus, if they diet and exercise, they would do better.  Moreover, chronic NSAIDs kill the kidney; look at Tom Prince.  BTW, I agree that one article about the wrestlers is sensationalistic, but NSAIDS did not cause early cardiovascular disease  You can be guaranteed three things.  The patient was genetically pre-disposed (I know Johnny hates that word).  His diet was probably not the healthiest.  Finally, the abuse of steroids is associated with dyslipidemia, liver disease, and early atherogenesis.  Thus, they were walking cardiovascular risk takers and their time came early. 

My biggest fault with the logic of some on this board is that they think doctors prescribe way to many pills.  In a sense, I agree and try to minimize or compartmentalize their medical regimen.  However, these same people who state that all you need is diet and exercise are willing to stick a black-market non-pharmeceutical grade hormone (usually vet grade) into their ass.  This is twisted logic to the nth degree.  Moreover, they don't even get their liver enzymes or cholesterol while cycling.  Thus, my beef. 

[johnnytosh]

Eh Johnny, I guess I produced a couple of names.  Why would a twenty something die of a heart attack otherwise.  Oh well, you will continue to believe what you want.  Take care my friend and get your liver enzymes checked.

I asked you to PRODUCE THE NAME of a BB that is Type-2 diabetic !!!!
And you mail me a link that talks about HEART ATTACKS !!
Should you & I split the cost of  a translator ??

I NEVER said steroids were safe !!  IN fact-The VERY FIRST POST I Made on this thread STARTED off by presenting the PARADOX of BB getting heart attack-but practically NEVER becoming TYPE-2 Diabetic !!

BB's do die from heart attacks for 2 reasons:
1) They are in an "Insulin Dominant" state because of all the food & carbs that they eat.  It is being in this state that causes plaque & cholesterol to stick to the arterial wall. Using insulin will obviously exaggerate this.

2) The AAS alter the lipid profile negatively. It causes decreases in HDL cholesterol. THis again leads to narrowing of the arteries.

As far as all the talk about BB being DIABETIC-That is bullshit.  BB are nearly immune from diabetes because the enormous exercise keeps the muscle very sensitive to insulin..  Muscle tissue is the largest resiviour of serum glucose. Everybody on this board spouts off about BB being diabetic, but in reality-almost NONE are.

You KNow, BOTH of us have mis-read each others posts. AND . BOTH of us have made unfair assumptions about each other. (without really knowing anything about each other).  NOBODY knows it all !!
If we were in the same room discussing this-We probably wouldn't dis-agree very much at all !
ON ALL of these topics- We probably are alot closer than what appears to be.

I do respect you, because you actually CARE !!

[buffbodz]

Steroids work and they work well, which is why they are so widespread in bodybuilding and so many other sports.

The trouble is, it is becoming increasingly apparent that long-term use seems to be a risk factor for several major and potentially fatal medical conditions.

Everybody thinks they will do 'just one cycle' or 'just a few,' but 90% of the people I have known that went in with those intentions wound up cycling on and off for anywhere from five to twenty years.

And without a wife and kids to give you a compelling reason to stay healthy and live to a ripe old age, it's easy to ignore the risks and just keep juicing for years and years.

This is so true.  When you're on you don't want to loose that look, even though you know it's artificial.  Long time ago I said just 1 cycle.  Good thing I got married, had a family and started a business because the mental addiction is as strong as anything I've ever encountered and I've tried it all.  You can never keep all you made while on, but you can train your ass off, eat clean and supplement wisely.  That's the only way I can ever do it now.  I know if I go back to the "dark side" I might never want to return.

[MindSpin]

sure you wouldn't have cared it's probably easier to say that now after he's been dead for a while and you've accepted he's gone

it would've bothered you if somebody posted a comment like that the day of his death don't deny it

what was the official cause of death anyways?

E

You must have missed the negative posts on his RIP thread.  It did not bother me one bit.  And, although I could have deleted them, chose not to.  As I said, I know what type of person Billy was...   

[I ETA PI]

Johnny, now I know that you are espousing the use of AAS.  While I cannot in good conscious agree with you, I will provide with a review article that compared weightlifters who used steroids vs those who did not.  The steroid abusers had increased left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH).  If you know anything about cardiovascular risk profiles, LVH is considered a fairly strong risk factor for acute myocardial infarcts.  I

Nicole,
    Don't group LVH with Cardiomyopathy.  You know that LVH is a very POOR prognosticator of potential MI's.  The only link between LVH (which is what AAS would cause, I think we can agree that LVH from androgen usage is entirely different than a cardiomyopathic HOCM or IHSS) and increased incident of MI's is the increased need for coronary blood flow to feed the increased LV thickness.  This would more than likely be offset by the increased funcional capacity of the heart from the increased exercise patterns of the AAS user.   

You have the ability to educate the readers here, as well as yourself with the information at your fingertips.

Keep the focus on the real risks.  Dyslipidemia being one that actually is a potentially serious risk of AAS usage. 

[bigdumbbell]

RIP

[unbatrainer]

rip

[nicorulez]

Nicole,
    Don't group LVH with Cardiomyopathy.  You know that LVH is a very POOR prognosticator of potential MI's.  The only link between LVH (which is what AAS would cause, I think we can agree that LVH from androgen usage is entirely different than a cardiomyopathic HOCM or IHSS) and increased incident of MI's is the increased need for coronary blood flow to feed the increased LV thickness.  This would more than likely be offset by the increased funcional capacity of the heart from the increased exercise patterns of the AAS user.   

You have the ability to educate the readers here, as well as yourself with the information at your fingertips.

Keep the focus on the real risks.  Dyslipidemia being one that actually is a potentially serious risk of AAS usage. 

Dude, you are officially a dipshit.  LVH is most certainly a risk for cardiovascular events.  This has been well established by numerous medical literature.  Obviously, you are clueless; you are certainly not a medical specialist (MD, nurse, PA etc).  At least Johnny has a very good understanding of the workings of Type 2 diabetes.  You have not been doing your reading.  Moreover, Dr. PI, a bodybuilder would be at markedly increased risk because the calibur of his coronary arteries would be narrowed from the marked dyslipidemia and pro-atherogenic nature of anaolics.  Do some reading before you make false blanket statement.  BTW, cardiomyopathy and LVH are mutually exclusive; they are in no way related unless you are talking Hypertrophic Obstructive CM which is associated with septal wall thickness which is different from usual LVH.

http://www.who.int/cardiovascular_diseases/en/cvd_atlas_03_risk_factors.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1838817&dopt=Abstract

http://www.med.yale.edu/library/heartbk/3.pdf

Dumbass, by the way when did I ever equate LVH with cardiomyopathy.  You are a complete and utter fool.  My article noted by assoication that steroid users had unexplained LVH.  Where the hell does cardiomyopathy come out of that.  For you, I will be totally arrogant as I am obviously talking to a high schooler with at best a grade school education.  Get out of this thread unless you have something useful to add.

Johnny, I agree. We have misread each others posts.  We are cool.  Genetics and obesity go hand in hand in causing Type 2 diabetes.  We both agree most Americans with the affliction should exercise and lose weight.  Peace.

[nicorulez]

Here is another link for you genius. 

http://cordis.europa.eu/data/PROJ_BIOMED/ACTIONeqDndSESSIONeq12805200595ndDOCeq5ndTBLeqEN_PROJ.htm

[johnnytosh]

Johnny, I agree. We have misread each others posts.  We are cool.  Genetics and obesity go hand in hand in causing Type 2 diabetes.  We both agree most Americans with the affliction should exercise and lose weight.  Peace.

COOL !   Let me ask you a question. I met a very smart nutritional research doctor at you know where (GNC) a few months ago. I wish I could remember his name.  I was frustrated that HBP patients don't seem to told about "arginine" by their MD's.  So I took him by the hand and walked him to the arginine on the shelf and said to him "Tell me, is this (arginine) not the BEST stuff out for HBP ?"  He thought aminute and said "Yes, Yes it is".  I asked him why more Doctors don't recommend it. He told me that their hands are tied on sometning like that. He told me that some doctors use supplemements that they are NOT able to actually recommend.

He even went on to tell me he was involved in the original arginine / nitric oxide studies about 10 years ago.

Is that because if the MD recommends "Arginine", and Not meds, and the patient has a stroke, it is an easy lawsuit against the doctor. I wondered what your experience or thoughts on this matter.

[nicorulez]

Johnny, good point. There has recently been some news about L-Arginine in the medical literature.  Now you are correct, L-Arginine is supposedly a pre-cursor to increased NO levels, which would supposedly relax the vasculature (thus decreasing blood pressure).  However, a study done in patients who took the supplement after a heart attack actually did worse.  The reason is not really known.  I would think if you are a healthy individual, it would not hurt.  However, Dr. Katz from Yale University admitted you have to take like 40 capsules to get the desired effect.  In theory it should work; I wonder if we are just not getting the greatest benefit because of the high dose needed to make a perceptible difference.

Linky:

http://www.henryfordhealth.org/148209.cfm

I think your friend is smart.  If a doctor gave a patient L-Arginine instead of a proven med like a Beta Blocker or ACE inhibitor which has been studied up the Yahoo, if there were an adverse outcome he would likely lose his license and maybe even shirt (malpractice sucks).

[legbreaker]

The best thing for a non medicated person to use nutritionally is Hawthorn Berry...works just like ace inhibitors....very safe, no sides, no long term risks, just benifits.

[I ETA PI]

Dude, you are officially a dipshit.  LVH is most certainly a risk for cardiovascular events.  This has been well established by numerous medical literature.  Obviously, you are clueless; you are certainly not a medical specialist (MD, nurse, PA etc).  At least Johnny has a very good understanding of the workings of Type 2 diabetes.  You have not been doing your reading.  Moreover, Dr. PI, a bodybuilder would be at markedly increased risk because the calibur of his coronary arteries would be narrowed from the marked dyslipidemia and pro-atherogenic nature of anaolics.  Do some reading before you make false blanket statement.  BTW, cardiomyopathy and LVH are mutually exclusive; they are in no way related unless you are talking Hypertrophic Obstructive CM which is associated with septal wall thickness which is different from usual LVH.

http://www.who.int/cardiovascular_diseases/en/cvd_atlas_03_risk_factors.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1838817&dopt=Abstract

http://www.med.yale.edu/library/heartbk/3.pdf

Dumbass, by the way when did I ever equate LVH with cardiomyopathy.  You are a complete and utter fool.  My article noted by assoication that steroid users had unexplained LVH.  Where the hell does cardiomyopathy come out of that.  For you, I will be totally arrogant as I am obviously talking to a high schooler with at best a grade school education.  Get out of this thread unless you have something useful to add.

Johnny, I agree. We have misread each others posts.  We are cool.  Genetics and obesity go hand in hand in causing Type 2 diabetes.  We both agree most Americans with the affliction should exercise and lose weight.  Peace.

Can you post anything on your own knowlege, or do you have to post links to abstracts for everything you post? 

YOU said that LVH is a risk factor for Atherosclerotic heart disease.  YOU posed the link between LVH caused in part due to AAS usage as a strong risk factor.  This LVH is NOT a strong risk for heart disease.  This LVH is relatively benign. 
I said that cardiomyopathy is a risk factor for heart disease, which is entirely different from LVH.  You are grasping at straws trying to find a relation between AAS and heart disease in any avenue possible. 

Obviously HOCM is different from LVH, as I WAS THE ONE MAKING THIS STATEMENT. 


You are a nephrologist.  Stick to that.  Keep the cardiovascular system to those who know it. 


Please, continue your arrogance, I'm having a good laugh. 

[I ETA PI]

Here is another link for you genius. 

http://cordis.europa.eu/data/PROJ_BIOMED/ACTIONeqDndSESSIONeq12805200595ndDOCeq5ndTBLeqEN_PROJ.htm

HA HA HA!!!

You're own post contradicts your statements! 
As quoted from YOUR LINK: "This is a central question, since to date there is no proof that LVH reduction is favorable, although many physicians and scientists accept this as a scientifically validated fact."

So, just like the study states, YOU accept the need to reduce LVH for the reduction of heart disease potential, despite there being NO PROOF TO DATE FOR THIS FACT!

[I ETA PI]

The fun continues!

Once again YOUR link proves your point moot!  Here is another quote from your Pub-med "abstract" contradicting your points, and proving MY points.

"These results show that hypertensive patients with LVH, as a group, have others factors of risk, DIFFERENT FROM VENTRICULAR HYPERTROPHY, which favour the high cardiovascular morbidity-mortality of LVH group."

(the CAPS were my addition)

So......it's NOT the LVH that is a strong prognosticator of heart disease.  LVH in the absence of other risk factors is a VERY MILD prognosticator of heart disease.  The only real risk is increased oxygen consumption of the myocardium.  But, in NORMAL coronary arteries, this is no risk at all, as there is plenty of blood flow available for LVH at any levels below severe. 

Like I've been saying all along Nicole....AAS IS DANGEROUS.  But, quit grasping at straws and trying to point out EVERY possiblity of it's misuse.  Focus on the risk factors it creates that really DO have a strong potential for problems.