Author Topic: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP  (Read 100183 times)

shootfighter1

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #325 on: July 26, 2006, 09:52:47 AM »
Good discussion (even with the aggressive edge).  Some of those article were very good, others sensational and more propagandaish.  Education and knowledge is good for all here.  Having a physician here giving info is a real plus.  Yes, Pi, your correct.

What is the actual risk of liver cancer and liver cysts with AAS.  I remember reading somewhere it was extremely low...yet it is cited in every article explaining major risks.

As far as GH REPLACEMENT (not pro BBer doses), the studies I have seen show an elevation in blood glucose in approx 15-20% of people, via insulin resistance.  Only a fraction of those actually qualify for DM based on fasting glucose readings.  Also, most studies don't examine long enough but that effect is often temporary.  Many anti-aging docs have stated a large % of the patients who experience the elevated glucose only do so for several weeks to a couple months, then the levels regress.  I have not heard GH replacement causing perminent diabetes in many people treated...if the elevation is severe or longstanding, the physician would certainly stop the drug.  I imagine most of these cases would return to normal blood levels.

In the 5 people I have observed with Gh replacement, all have done exceptionally well.  These are all individuals in their mid 40s and 50s.

I ETA PI

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #326 on: July 26, 2006, 09:56:24 AM »
Good discussion (even with the aggressive edge).  Some of those article were very good, others sensational and more propagandaish.  Education and knowledge is good for all here.  Having a physician here giving info is a real plus.  Yes, Pi, your correct.

What is the actual risk of liver cancer and liver cysts with AAS.  I remember reading somewhere it was extremely low...yet it is cited in every article explaining major risks.

As far as GH REPLACEMENT (not pro BBer doses), the studies I have seen show an elevation in blood glucose in approx 15-20% of people, via insulin resistance.  Only a fraction of those actually qualify for DM based on fasting glucose readings.  Also, most studies don't examine long enough but that effect is often temporary.  Many anti-aging docs have stated a large % of the patients who experience the elevated glucose only do so for several weeks to a couple months, then the levels regress.  I have not heard GH replacement causing perminent diabetes in many people treated...if the elevation is severe or longstanding, the physician would certainly stop the drug.  I imagine most of these cases would return to normal blood levels.

In the 5 people I have observed with Gh replacement, all have done exceptionally well.  These are all individuals in their mid 40s and 50s.

How supraphysiological are the doses with GH replacement? 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11502767&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum

This study shows that in physiological doses of GH, insulin sensitivity improved after an initial decrease.   Supraphysiological doses showed hyperglycemia though.

"In contrast, physiologic doses of GH ( approximately 1 mg/d) in HIV-negative men reduced visceral adiposity and eventually improved insulin sensitivity, despite initially causing insulin resistance."

shootfighter1

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #327 on: July 26, 2006, 10:39:57 AM »
Great find.  Exactly what the anti-aging docs were seeing.
What is 3mg/d?  Thats a concentration but how does that convert to units?

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #328 on: July 26, 2006, 10:44:06 AM »
Great find.  Exactly what the anti-aging docs were seeing.
What is 3mg/d?  Thats a concentration but how does that convert to units?

I believe 6mg is roughly 18ius of GH.  So, I guess 1mg is roughly 3ius, probably in the range of GH replacement therapy.

nicorulez

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #329 on: July 26, 2006, 07:44:57 PM »
Can you post anything on your own knowlege, or do you have to post links to abstracts for everything you post? 

YOU said that LVH is a risk factor for Atherosclerotic heart disease.  YOU posed the link between LVH caused in part due to AAS usage as a strong risk factor.  This LVH is NOT a strong risk for heart disease.  This LVH is relatively benign. 
I said that cardiomyopathy is a risk factor for heart disease, which is entirely different from LVH.  You are grasping at straws trying to find a relation between AAS and heart disease in any avenue possible. 

Obviously HOCM is different from LVH, as I WAS THE ONE MAKING THIS STATEMENT. 


You are a nephrologist.  Stick to that.  Keep the cardiovascular system to those who know it. 


Please, continue your arrogance, I'm having a good laugh. 

Moron, you talk out of your ass.  I showed this thread to a cardiology friend and mine and laughed at your ignorance.  LVH is a known risk for cardiovascular events including Myocardial infarctions.  The last link I posted shows this.  This is not some "out of I ETA Pi's" ass opinion; this is the opinion of the WHO.  Now, you obviously have no medical background, except what you read on the internet.  God forbid if you are a doctor, as you are more clueless than laymen.  For one think LVH is completely different from cardiomyopathy.  Cardiomyopathy is usually a pathologic condition.  LVH can be a manifestation of chronic HTN.  However, it is well established that LVH increases your risk for heart attacks, arrhythmias, etc.  Now genius, follow with me.  I will go very slowly for you so as not to confuse your easily distracted little mind.

If Anabolic steroids are a risk for LVH, it could be surmised as some scientists who study the matter that they may be a risk for early cardiovascular risk.  Also, since it is well established that anabolic steroids cause dyslipidemia and are pro-atherogenic (that means they increase the atherosclerotic plaques on coronary arteries...if you need info on what coronary arteries are...it is easily found on the internest Ms. PTA).  Thus, you have LVH which is associated with decreased venticular relaxation (diastole), increased blood requirements to feed the hypertrophied myocardium and smaller diameter coronaries because of the above increased atherogenesis.  It does not take a hemodynamic expert to see that this would put your heart at risk for a heart attack, arrhythmia or even sudden death.  Now, why don't you go back and read my links.  Only clueless steroid abusing idiots like yourself cannot appreciate the facts. 

nicorulez

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #330 on: July 26, 2006, 07:51:48 PM »
Dipshit, here is the whole article for your reading pleasure.  I will outline some pertinent facts.

The Cardiac Hypertrophy Regression in Europe - effect on cardiovascular Risk : a surrogate outcome evaluation study and placebo-controlled prevention trial
General Project Information
Objectives: The CAHRE-Risk trial is designed to demonstrate that the reduction of left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) by a simple-to-use treatment which does not alter quality of life, offers a better control of cardiovascular future in high risk subjects, thus that electrocardiographically (ECG) defined LVH is a suitable surrogate endpoint.

General Information: Cardiovascular risk remains an important health public issue in developed countries, despite of the advancement of therapeutics. It is well established that (i) left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) is a risk factor for cardiovascular morbi-mortality (including myocardial infarction and stroke) and (ii) LVH is common, especially in hypertensive subjects. The predictive value of LVH for cardiovascular risk remains even after allowance for the other risk factors (including blood pressure), and also in treated hypertensives.
ACE decrease blood pressure, but how they affect cardiovascular risk associated with hypertension is not yet known. Some experimental data suggest that, in animal and in human, low-dose ACE inhibitors reduce LVH, independently of any effect on blood pressure. Thus, it is the choice treatment to test if LVH is a suitable surrogate end-point for reduced cadiovascular risk, i.e. if the control of LVH decreases cardiovascular risk. This is a central question, since to date there is no proof that LVH reduction is favorable, although many physicians and scientists accept this as a scientifically validated fact. A large randomized placebo-controlled clinical trial is the only way to test this assumption. The CAHRE-Risk trial will include 3200 controlled treated hypertensive subjects, with electrocardiography evidence of LVH, with wide inclusion criteria to ensure as much as possible the generalisability of the results. This is a randomized, placebo controlled, in parallel group trial, where patients will be included for a follow-up of five years. The main outcome combines cardiovascular morbi-mortality criteria, which expected incidence is 15% in the control group. The tested treatment is an angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitor given at low-dose, to obtain a LVH regression irrespective of any antihypertensive effect. The expected relative risk reduction is of 25%, for a risk alpha of 5% and a power of 90%.

If you notice, even when they remove other risk factors for heart disease, LVH is still a an established risk factor.  The quote you take is only stated, because a large randomized placebo controlled trial for at least five years has not been done.  However, when leading cardiologists and hypertensive experts note its importance, the value of reducing LVH to minimize your cardiovascular risk is taken.  Now you, master of steroids himself, and a completely non-medical person with the knowledge of a chimp refuses to admit this.  The only people who will give you and credence are those dolts who are actively sticking a needle into their rump haphazardly and hope that all the medical naysayers are wrong.   ::) ::) ::) ::)

nicorulez

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #331 on: July 26, 2006, 08:00:54 PM »
Mrs. PTA, here is a link from UPTODATE, the most widely respected and most clinically up to date (duh) web resource for medical professionals.  Here is a snippet, if you want the who article, I will be happy to email you a word copy:

Norman M Kaplan, MD
Pamela S Douglas, MD
Burton D Rose, MD
UpToDate performs a continuous review of over 350 journals and other resources. Updates are added as important new information is published. The literature review for version 14.2 is current through April 2006; this topic was last changed on April 17, 2006. The next version of UpToDate (14.3) will be released in October 2006.

INTRODUCTION — Left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) is a common finding in patients with fixed or borderline hypertension and can be diagnosed either by ECG or by echocardiography [1,2]. The latter is the procedure of choice, since the sensitivity of the different ECG criteria may be as low as 7 to 35 percent with mild LVH and only 10 to 50 percent with moderate to severe disease [3]. Nevertheless, if echocardiography is unavailable or too expensive, appropriate ECG criteria can be used to detect increased LV mass [4].
The clinical implications and therapy of LVH in hypertension will be reviewed here. The definition and pathogenesis of this complication in hypertensive patients are discussed separately. (See "Definition and pathogenesis of left ventricular hypertrophy in hypertension").
CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS — The presence of LVH (on ECG or echocardiography) is important clinically because it is associated with increases in the incidence of heart failure, ventricular arrhythmias, death following myocardial infarction, decreased LV ejection fraction, sudden cardiac death, aortic root dilation, and a cerebrovascular event (show figure 1) [2,5-13]. One report, for example, compared 131 hypertensive patients without prior clinical evidence of heart disease who had experienced a cardiac arrest with 562 randomly selected hypertensives who served as controls [8]. After adjustment for other factors, the risk of sudden death was increased 40 percent by the presence of LVH (using electrocardiographic criteria), 70 percent by ischemic myocardial injury, and 80 percent by QT interval prolongation.
LVH diagnosed by echocardiography, which is much more sensitive than the ECG [14], also carries an increased risk for cardiac events (angina and myocardial infarction, heart failure, and serious ventricular arrhythmia) and cardiovascular deaths [7,10,12,15,16]. The range of findings is illustrated by the following observations:

Just from the intro, it is apparent that LVH (not cardiomyopathy which you are so completely confused about) is a significant risk for cardiovascular events (almost all of them).  If you want the full article, I would gladly email it to you.

Here is some more:

Mechanisms for increased risk — The increased cardiac risk associated with LVH is probably due in part to myocardial ischemia that can be induced by a variety of factors. In hypertrophied myocardium, there is a reduced density of capillaries. Furthermore, the enlarged muscle mass limits the ability of the coronary arteries to dilate in response to decreased perfusion or during vasodilatory stress [9,17-19]; it may also directly compress the endocardial capillaries. Both of these factors can decrease coronary reserve and can have a number of important clinical implications.

    * Coronary occlusion is associated with a greater degree of infarction and a higher mortality rate than seen in the absence of LVH [20,21]. The increased mortality associated with LVH is also seen in patients receiving thrombolytic therapy [22].

    * The hypertrophied myocardium may be more susceptible than normal myocardium to the effects of ischemia. In a study of patients with sudden cardiac death, the patients with hypertension who died suddenly had less extensive coronary disease and were less likely to have thrombi in the coronary vessels than normotensives who died suddenly [23].

The development of heart failure with LVH results from depressed left ventricular systolic function and/or diastolic dysfunction. (See "Pathophysiology of diastolic heart failure"). The deleterious effect of left ventricular remodeling may be an important determinant of progression to overt heart failure [24]. (See "Cardiac remodeling: Basic aspects").

LVH also causes several electrophysiologic changes or electrical remodeling, including nonuniform action potential prolongation, altered repolarization and increased dispersion of recovery, and the easily provocable early afterpotentials, which are associated with an increased vulnerability to ventricular arrhythmias, especially torsade de pointes, and sudden death [25-28].

nicorulez

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #332 on: July 26, 2006, 08:06:26 PM »
Trust me, a nephrologist is intimately aware of the risk factors of all cardiac events as they are closely tied to renal function.  Anybody in the medical profession knows that the heart and kidneys are inexorably linked.  That is why one of my main jobs is blood pressure management of very difficult to control patients.  What you have read about I have seen.  I do not need an internet junkie who has a little info, but not the whole enchilada to belabor a point that is known fact.  Believe what you want, you can shoot up as much testosterone as you want.  I want to educate the other GetBiggers who are undecided about the risk.  My point being that there is a lot more info (sometimes inferred) than you want to believe.  At least if you use, do it wisely and get someone to monitor you.  Is that such an absurd suggestion.

liberty

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #333 on: July 27, 2006, 05:13:06 AM »

I ETA PI

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #334 on: July 27, 2006, 05:29:11 AM »
Trust me, a nephrologist is intimately aware of the risk factors of all cardiac events as they are closely tied to renal function.  Anybody in the medical profession knows that the heart and kidneys are inexorably linked.  That is why one of my main jobs is blood pressure management of very difficult to control patients.  What you have read about I have seen.  I do not need an internet junkie who has a little info, but not the whole enchilada to belabor a point that is known fact.  Believe what you want, you can shoot up as much testosterone as you want.  I want to educate the other GetBiggers who are undecided about the risk.  My point being that there is a lot more info (sometimes inferred) than you want to believe.  At least if you use, do it wisely and get someone to monitor you.  Is that such an absurd suggestion.


You just keep coming back for more, don't you. 

The funniest thing is that you "showed this to a cardiology friend, and had a good laugh."  I can just picture you showing your internet battle to a colleague!  HA HA!  I'm sure he wasn't embarassed for you at all. 

You just keep using the same lines.  I WAS THE ONE WHO SAID THAT CARDIOMYOPATHY WAS DIFFERENT.  You said that LVH was a strong risk factor for heart disease.  It is clearly not, as is evidenced by the articles YOU POSTED.   Is LVH a risk factor?  Of course.  That is not up for debate.  (Although you want to think that is still part of the debate, as that is all you can talk about).  I'm asking you to focus on the real risks.  You want to try to show some "nobodies" on the internet how much info you have been force fed.  So, while the REAL risk factors of AAS use could be put out in the open, and discussed by some individuals in the medical field, you choose to cling to the hope that a few people won't be able to prove you wrong on a minor point. 

Here are the facts as they stand.  You are welcome to show this to all your cadiologist friends as well.  (Please be sure to use the words "owned" and "flame war," I'm sure it will bring them closer to the heat of the battle)

LVH is a MILD risk factor for heart disease.  Bring any patient to a cardiologist with LVH "caused" by AAS usage (so we're looking at roughly a 12mm myocardial thickness level), and see how concerned the cardiologist is of them having an MI. 

Dyslipidemia, high BMI, high triglycerides, hyperhomocystemia, Diabetes, and OTHER risk factors that can arise from AAS use are a much more STRONG risk factor for heart disease. 

Careful of that pebble in the road.....you don't want to wreck your car, dipshit.

shootfighter1

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #335 on: July 27, 2006, 09:39:30 AM »
LVH is a significant risk factor for heart disease.  Even knowing this previously, I looked up several additional studies and resources on how cardiac risk factors are weighed.  One calculation put more weight on LVH than diabetes or smoking.  However, I believe HTN is still the largest risk factor.

ventricular hypertrophy is good to increase heart function and cardiac output if its mild (many athletes) but as the wall size continues to increase past a certain point, more problems develop.  Additionally, if the hypertrophy is asymmetric, there is more risk.

Besides the name calling, this is a very imformative thread that I hope more people on this board are reading.  Abuse of AAS has major health effects...and some people here who think they are using mild amounts (therefore less risk) are probably not. 

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #336 on: July 27, 2006, 11:18:52 AM »
LVH is a significant risk factor for heart disease.  Even knowing this previously, I looked up several additional studies and resources on how cardiac risk factors are weighed.  One calculation put more weight on LVH than diabetes or smoking.  However, I believe HTN is still the largest risk factor.

ventricular hypertrophy is good to increase heart function and cardiac output if its mild (many athletes) but as the wall size continues to increase past a certain point, more problems develop.  Additionally, if the hypertrophy is asymmetric, there is more risk.

Besides the name calling, this is a very imformative thread that I hope more people on this board are reading.  Abuse of AAS has major health effects...and some people here who think they are using mild amounts (therefore less risk) are probably not. 

I agree 100% regarding the health effects of AAS.  That's why I think it's good to have physicians talking about this in this particular thread. 

I think everyone is missing my point though.  HTN is definitely a risk factor for heart disease.  HTN puts an individual at risk for a myriad of health problems.  But, the point was made that LVH essentially "created" from AAS use was a MAJOR risk factor.  I think everyone should be able to agree that if a patient came to you with mild LVH (I used the myocardial thickness of 1.2cm earlier), and this patient was void of other risk factors, you would NOT consider the patient a serious risk for heart disease. 

Please don't argue that fact. 

You would only consider the patient a risk for heart disease in the presence of OTHER risk factors with that LVH.  If the patient came to you in a hypertensive state, with dyslipidemia, and the appearance of developing DM, you would begin to consider the patient at a fairly high level of risk. 

Even if the patient came in with HTN, and no other symptoms, you would probably mention the risk to them, and would certainly treat the HTN.  But, in the case of LVH, you would do nothing, unless OTHER factors were involved. 
In fact, you would probably comment that the person looked to be in good physical shape, and that the exercise they do is very good for them. 

Nicorulz is acting as though she would send every patient with LVH to Cleveland for a myoectomy, or ETOH ablation!

If Nicorulz could see through the red in her eyes, she would focus on presenting the REAL risk factors of AAS abuse from a "professional" perspective. 

nicorulez

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #337 on: July 27, 2006, 04:01:23 PM »
Dumbass, why are you so damn ignorant.  Obviously, LVH is a major risk factor for cardiovascular events.  Does it really matter if it is secondary to HTN vs steroids; it is present.  LVH, beyond HTN and dyslipidemia and diabetes, has certain clinical implications completely separate from those diseases.  You are so dense that you keep on harping about HTN only.  First, you have absolutely not medical training and couldn't treat a common cold if it hit you in nose.  Your logic and deductions are skewed at best and asinine at worst.  You don't believe that AAS are a major cardiovascular risk.  Unfortunately, there are not many clinical trials comparing placebo to anadrol as it is an unethical and illegal study.  What has been deduced from indvidual case studies is that AAS are associatied with LVH.  LVH is known to cause heart disease. Ergo, a chimp (which you obviously are not) can deduce that maybe AAS increase your risk for cardiovascular events.  Tell you what Ms. PTA, show me an article that shows me the benefit of AAS on cardiovascular funcitoning when used in the manner that bodybuilders use them.  You are making a major mistake in assuming that LVH without risks means nothing.  Oh no, LVH without hypertension usually means something else is going on that is not very good.  For instance, the following:

    * obesity [52, 53],
    * age,
    * dietary sodium intake [54],
    * volume load [55],
    * diabetes [56],
    * arterial hypertrophy and stiffening [57],
    *  insulin resistance [58], and
    * neurohumoral factors (e.g., adrenergic factors and the renin-angiotensin system) [59, 60].

Here is a link of the full article.  It does not discuss the dangers of LVH in detail; I have already done that on my own and given references (for which you have none).  Regardless, a person does not have LVH for no reason.  That is fallacy and if a reason is not found, I can gurantee you that a good physician will do the appropriate work up and refer to a cardiologist.  Once again Ms PTA, your logic and reasoning are skewed beyond belief.  I know you are a fan of androgenic steroids, and that is fine with me.  However, you are a purveyor of falso information.  Knowledge is power and you have a paucity of it.  Learn to read and understand from those far brighter and knowledgeable than you.  ;)


http://www.sph.uth.tmc.edu/hgc/fbpp/techSigLVH.htm

Here's one that separates LVH out from arterial hypertension in hemodialysis patients with cardiac death.

http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/7/1829

Read this article below that I have reprinted and thank Heart Online (and acknowledge):  PS...read the bold print please which I have highlighted.

Heart  Online access for your BMJ subscription

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Heart 2004;90:473-475
© 2004 by BMJ Publishing Group & British Cardiac Society
EDITORIAL
Cardiac effects of anabolic steroids
J R Payne, P J Kotwinski and H E Montgomery

Centre for Cardiovascular Genetics, British Heart Foundation Laboratories, London, UK

Correspondence to:
Dr H E Montgomery
British Heart Foundation Laboratories, Royal Free & University College Medical School, Rayne Building, 5 University Street, London WC1E 6JF, UK; h.montgomery@ucl.ac.uk


ABSTRACT
Anabolic steroid abuse in athletes has been associated with a wide range of adverse conditions, including hypogonadism, testicular atrophy, impaired spermatogenesis, gynaecomastia, and psychiatric disturbance. But what effect does steroid abuse have on the cardiovascular system?

Keywords: steroid; hypertrophy; exercise; anabolic steroids

Abbreviations: AAS, anabolic/androgenic steroids; AR, androgen receptor; ExU, ex-users of anabolic steroids; hCG, human chorionic gonadotrophin; hGH, human growth hormone; LVH, left ventricular hypertrophy; LVMM, left ventricular muscle mass; RAS, renin-angiotensin system; RT, resistance training; U, users of anabolic steroids; WL, weightlifters

Left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) independently predicts cardiovascular mortality and morbidity across diverse disease states.1 While cardiac diastolic or contractile failure might result directly from structural change within the ventricle (such as altered capillary density or matrix deposition), the association of LVH with cardiovascular disease is more likely dependent upon the increased activity of shared physiological pathways driving both processes. The nature of these underlying mechanisms remains poorly understood. In this regard, escalating attention has focused on the potential role of steroid hormones on LV growth responses.

Whether of local or systemic origin, endogenous steroid hormones appear to drive LV growth. Systemic glucocorticoid excess is associated with significant hypertrophy. This action is more likely to be direct, rather than mediated through an elevated pressor burden,2 with aldosterone having similar effects.3 Local myocardial renin-angiotensin systems (RAS) play a role in regulating LV growth,4 and at least part of the hypertrophic responses to steroid hormones may be mediated through upregulation of local RAS expression.5 Anabolic/androgenic steroids (AAS—primarily comprising testosterone and its synthetic derivatives) are likely to share such influences on the LV hypertrophic response through actions on the androgen receptor (AR), a transcriptional regulator.6,7 Indeed, ARs are almost ubiquitously expressed, being found not only in skeletal muscle cells, but also on cardiac myocytes. Several lines of evidence also implicate endogenous androgenic pathways in the development of cardiac hypertrophy, including the demonstration of raised 5{alpha} reductase, aromatase, and AR expression in hypertrophic hearts of both humans and mice.6


EXOGENOUSLY ADMINISTERED STEROIDS
Given these putative effects of steroid hormones (and AAS in particular) on LV growth, we might expect exposure to exogenously administered steroid hormones to be associated with an exaggerated LV hypertrophic response to any other hypertrophic stimulus.

Exercise is just such a potent cardiac hypertrophic stimulus.4,8,9 Meanwhile, athletes are increasingly exposing themselves to supra-physiological doses of AAS. These are known to increase skeletal muscle mass and strength7—effects which form the basis for their administration to enhance athletic performance. A variety of AAS are often taken simultaneously (so called "stacking"), and in doses which result in 10–100 fold increases in androgen concentrations.7 Administration regimens usually involve a 6–12 week cycle and are often administered in a "pyramidal" fashion, with doses tapering from low to high to low.10 Abused substances include testosterone, its 17-ß esters, and those based on modified steroid rings (including 17-{alpha} derivatives).7

The largest group to make such use of AAS are the very group whose LVH response to exercise is likely to be the greatest—the strength or resistance training (RT) athletes. One study from 1995 suggested that two thirds of elite US powerlifters have self reported use of AAS to enhance performance11; even "dope testing" may be underestimating the true extent of such use.12 What evidence is there that AAS administration enhances the LV hypertrophic response to resistance exercise?

In this issue of Heart, Urhausen and colleagues report the results of a cross sectional study of cardiac morphology in relation to AAS use.13 Male bodybuilders/powerlifters currently using AAS or ex-users who had abstained from AAS exposure for over 12 months (U and ExU, n = 17 and 15, respectively) were compared to 15 weightlifters who denied current or past use of AAS (WL). Left ventricular wall thickness and cavity dimensions were assessed using echocardiography, and muscle mass (LVMM) calculated using the Devereux equation. Absolute LVMM measures (mean (SD)) were significantly greater for U than ExU or WL (281 (54) g v 232 (42) g v 204 (44) g for U v ExU v WL, respectively), with differences between ExU and WL only reaching significance after adjustment for body surface area or fat-free mass. These results suggest that AAS use increases the LV hypertrophic response to exercise, an effect which might last for well over a year.


CAUTION NEEDED
Such data must nonetheless be treated with caution. We know, for example, that the magnitude and pattern of hypertrophy is dependent on the nature, duration, and intensity of exercise undertaken.8,9,14 Thus, strength trained athletes (such as weightlifters, powerlifters, bodybuilders, and throwers) develop a greater increase in wall thickness, a more concentric pattern of LV growth, and a lesser increase in LV chamber internal dimensions8 in comparison to those undergoing predominantly aerobic/endurance exercise. In the study under discussion, training patterns will have varied. One might suspect that subjects taking AAS were also the most motivated to train (whether by initial predisposition, or psychological impact of the steroid use itself). However, this does not seem to be the case as the authors report that the magnitude of training did not differ between U, ExU, and WL groups. Even so, more subtle differences in training pattern may have existed between bodybuilders, powerlifters, and weightlifters. Although all groups lift exceptionally heavy weights, the total load and training pattern are likely to differ.

Other factors may also have been of influence. Diet (including the use of supplements) may have differed between groups, as might the use of other agents. Abusers of AAS frequently also self administer other drugs including stimulants, antioestrogens, human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG), and human growth hormone (hGH).10 It is unclear to what extent these and other drugs might have driven LV growth, and whether the ExU group were still taking any of these. Neither can mechanistic inferences be drawn from the data: the putative effects of AAS on LV growth may have been mediated directly, or through secondary phenotypes such as alterations in circulating volume or blood pressure. Certainly, resting systolic blood pressure is higher in the U v ExU group, a difference which persists as a trend for exercising blood pressure. The use of such drugs (as well as differences in patterns of training) may also have influenced fat-free mass and body surface area. The adjustment for such anthropometric measures may have contributed to the significance of the comparison between ExU and WL.

Finally, it is noticeable that the ExU group were younger than the U group, and it may be that LV growth responses differ with subject age. Nonetheless, these data are consistent with existing data. Over a decade ago, De Piccoli demonstrated that LV mass among bodybuilders who used AAS was greater than that in non-users, and did not regress over a nine week period of abstinence.15


HEALTH IMPLICATIONS
If AAS use is associated with an exaggerated LV hypertrophic response to training, what are the likely health implications? They may be profound. In terms of non-cardiac morbidity, AAS use is associated with hypogonadism, testicular atrophy, impaired spermatogenesis, baldness, acne, gynaecomastia, and psychiatric disturbance. Such drugs also have toxic effects on metabolic profile and hepatic structure and function,10 as well as potentially promoting neoplastic growth.10 Indeed, Parsinnen reported the 12 year mortality to be 12.9% among 62 male powerlifters suspected of AAS use, compared to 3.1% in a control population.16

LVH is an independent risk factor for cardiovascular mortality and (through whatever mechanism) one might anticipate an excess cardiovascular mortality among AAS users in whom LVH occurs. In addition, the recognised association of AAS use with hypertension and dislipidaemia (raised low density lipoprotein and reduced high density lipoprotein cholesterol, and raised triglycerides),10 as well as influences on coagulation and platelet aggregation,10 might increase such risk. While it is debatable whether ASS use is indeed associated with an increased risk of premature cardiovascular death, 38% of the deaths in Parssinen’s powerlifting group were attributed to "myocardial infarction",16 while several case reports have attributed myocardial infarction in athletes to ASS abuse.

In some cases, infarction has occurred without evident coronary thrombosis or atherosclerosis, leading to the hypothesis that ASS may induce coronary vasospasm in susceptible individuals.10 Similarly there are several case reports of increased thromboembolic risk.10 In a recent postmortem series of 34 AAS abusers aged 20–45 years (comprising 12 homicides, 11 suicides, 12 "accidental" deaths, and two of indeterminate cause), 12 of the deceased showed cardiac pathology. Findings included hypertrophy (7 cases), myocardial or endocardial fibrosis (5), cardiac steatosis (1), myocardial coagulation necrosis (2), and coronary atheroma (4). Cardiac changes were adjudged to have contributed to death by poisoning in two cases.17 However mediated, such a morbid burden is likely to rise with time. The US National Institute on Drug Abuse reported in 1999 that between 2.7–2.9% of year 8–12 high school teenagers had experimented at least once with AAS, representing a 38–50% rise since 1991.18

The influence of steroid hormones on the heart thus warrants further study. Evidently, the potential impact of steroid abuse on public health is a matter of concern. Perhaps more importantly, however, such studies might lead to a greater understanding of the shared mechanisms through which cardiac growth and cardiovascular disease are mediated. Such issues are increasingly exciting as the identification of local myocardial steroid synthesis (and its potential pathogenicity19) is paralleled by the demonstrated efficacy of steroid antagonists in cardiac disease.20 We might yet see a role for steroid antagonists such as aldosterone in the primary or secondary prevention of LVH, and its associated cardiovascular sequelae.


ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
JRP is funded by the British Heart Foundation (PG/02/021), who also provide core funding for the Centre for Cardiovascular Genetics. PJK and HEM are funded by the Portex Endowment. HEM is a Portex Senior Lecturer in Cardiovascular Genetics.


REFERENCES

   1. Levy D, Garrison R, Savage D, et al. Prognostic implications of echocardiographically determined left ventricular mass in the Framingham heart study. N Engl J Med 1990;322:1561–6.[Abstract]
   2. Fallo F, Budano S, Sonino N, et al. Left ventricular structural characteristics in Cushing’s syndrome. J Hum Hypertens 1994;8:509–13.[Medline]
   3. Delles C, Schmidt BM, Muller HJ, et al. Functional relevance of aldosterone for the determination of left ventricular mass. Am J Cardiol 2003;91:297–301.[CrossRef][Medline]
   4. Montgomery HE, Clarkson P, Dollery CM, et al. Association of angiotensin-converting enzyme gene I/D polymorphism with change in left ventricular mass in response to physical training. Circulation 1997;96:741–7.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
   5. Dostal DE, Booz GW, Baker KM. Regulation of angiotensinogen gene expression and protein in neonatal rat cardiac fibroblasts by glucocorticoid and beta-adrenergic stimulation. Basic Res Cardiol 2000;95:485–90.[CrossRef][Medline]
   6. Liu PY, Death AK, Handelsman DJ. Androgens and cardiovascular disease. Endocr Rev 2003;24:313–40.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
   7. Kuhn CM. Anabolic steroids. Recent Prog Horm Res 2002;57:411–34.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
   8. Pluim BM, Zwinderman AH, van der Laarse A, et al. The athlete’s heart. A meta-analysis of cardiac structure and function. Circulation 2000;101:336–44.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
   9. Haykowsky MJ, Dressendorfer R, Taylor D, et al. Resistance training and cardiac hypertrophy: unravelling the training effect. Sports Med 2002;32:837–49.[Medline]
  10. Parssinen M, Seppala T. Steroid use and long-term health risks in former athletes. Sports Med 2002;32:83–94.[Medline]
  11. Wagman DF, Curry LA, Cook DL. An investigation into the annabolic androgenic steroid use by elite U.S. powerlifters. J Strength Cond Res 1995;9:149–54.
  12. Curry LA, Wagman DF. Qualitative description of the prevalence and use of anabolic androgenic steroids by United States powerlifters. Percept Mot Skills 1999;88:224–33.[Medline]
  13. Urhausen A, Albers T, Kindermann W. Are the cardiac effects of anabolic steroid abuse in strength athletes reversible? Heart 2004;90:496–501.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
  14. Urhausen A, Kindermann W. Sports-specific adaptations and differentiation of the athlete’s heart. Sports Med 1999;28:237–44.[Medline]
  15. De Piccoli B, Giada F, Benettin A, et al. Anabolic steroid use in body builders: an echocardiographic study of left ventricle morphology and function. Int J Sports Med 1991;12:408–12.[Medline]
  16. Parssinen M, Kujala U, Vartiainen E, et al. Increased premature mortality of competitive powerlifters suspected to have used anabolic agents. Int J Sports Med 2000;21:225–7.[CrossRef][Medline]
  17. Thiblin I, Lindquist O, Rajs J. Cause and manner of death among users of anabolic androgenic steroids. J Forensic Sci 2000;45:16–23.[Medline]
  18. NIDA. NIDA Community Drug Alert Bulletin - Anabolic Steroids. National Institute on Drug Abuse; http://165.112.78.61/SteroidAlert/SteroidAlert.html (accessed 22 September 2003).
  19. Rocha R, Funder JW. The pathophysiology of aldosterone in the cardiovascular system. Ann N Y Acad Sci 2002;970:89–100.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
  20. RALES Investigators. Effectiveness of spironolactone added to an angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitor and a loop diuretic for severe chronic congestive heart failure (the randomized aldactone evaluation study [RALES]). Am J Cardiol 1996;78:902–7.[CrossRef][Medline]




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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #338 on: July 27, 2006, 05:08:41 PM »
Mrs. PTA, here is a link from UPTODATE, the most widely respected and most clinically up to date (duh) web resource for medical professionals.  Here is a snippet, if you want the who article, I will be happy to email you a word copy:

Norman M Kaplan, MD
Pamela S Douglas, MD
Burton D Rose, MD
UpToDate performs a continuous review of over 350 journals and other resources. Updates are added as important new information is published. The literature review for version 14.2 is current through April 2006; this topic was last changed on April 17, 2006. The next version of UpToDate (14.3) will be released in October 2006.

INTRODUCTION — Left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) is a common finding in patients with fixed or borderline hypertension and can be diagnosed either by ECG or by echocardiography [1,2]. The latter is the procedure of choice, since the sensitivity of the different ECG criteria may be as low as 7 to 35 percent with mild LVH and only 10 to 50 percent with moderate to severe disease [3]. Nevertheless, if echocardiography is unavailable or too expensive, appropriate ECG criteria can be used to detect increased LV mass [4].
The clinical implications and therapy of LVH in hypertension will be reviewed here. The definition and pathogenesis of this complication in hypertensive patients are discussed separately. (See "Definition and pathogenesis of left ventricular hypertrophy in hypertension").
CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS — The presence of LVH (on ECG or echocardiography) is important clinically because it is associated with increases in the incidence of heart failure, ventricular arrhythmias, death following myocardial infarction, decreased LV ejection fraction, sudden cardiac death, aortic root dilation, and a cerebrovascular event (show figure 1) [2,5-13]. One report, for example, compared 131 hypertensive patients without prior clinical evidence of heart disease who had experienced a cardiac arrest with 562 randomly selected hypertensives who served as controls [8]. After adjustment for other factors, the risk of sudden death was increased 40 percent by the presence of LVH (using electrocardiographic criteria), 70 percent by ischemic myocardial injury, and 80 percent by QT interval prolongation.
LVH diagnosed by echocardiography, which is much more sensitive than the ECG [14], also carries an increased risk for cardiac events (angina and myocardial infarction, heart failure, and serious ventricular arrhythmia) and cardiovascular deaths [7,10,12,15,16]. The range of findings is illustrated by the following observations:

Just from the intro, it is apparent that LVH (not cardiomyopathy which you are so completely confused about) is a significant risk for cardiovascular events (almost all of them).  If you want the full article, I would gladly email it to you.

Here is some more:

Mechanisms for increased risk — The increased cardiac risk associated with LVH is probably due in part to myocardial ischemia that can be induced by a variety of factors. In hypertrophied myocardium, there is a reduced density of capillaries. Furthermore, the enlarged muscle mass limits the ability of the coronary arteries to dilate in response to decreased perfusion or during vasodilatory stress [9,17-19]; it may also directly compress the endocardial capillaries. Both of these factors can decrease coronary reserve and can have a number of important clinical implications.

    * Coronary occlusion is associated with a greater degree of infarction and a higher mortality rate than seen in the absence of LVH [20,21]. The increased mortality associated with LVH is also seen in patients receiving thrombolytic therapy [22].

    * The hypertrophied myocardium may be more susceptible than normal myocardium to the effects of ischemia. In a study of patients with sudden cardiac death, the patients with hypertension who died suddenly had less extensive coronary disease and were less likely to have thrombi in the coronary vessels than normotensives who died suddenly [23].

The development of heart failure with LVH results from depressed left ventricular systolic function and/or diastolic dysfunction. (See "Pathophysiology of diastolic heart failure"). The deleterious effect of left ventricular remodeling may be an important determinant of progression to overt heart failure [24]. (See "Cardiac remodeling: Basic aspects").

LVH also causes several electrophysiologic changes or electrical remodeling, including nonuniform action potential prolongation, altered repolarization and increased dispersion of recovery, and the easily provocable early afterpotentials, which are associated with an increased vulnerability to ventricular arrhythmias, especially torsade de pointes, and sudden death [25-28].


HA HA HA!!!  Another link to a study!!  HA HA!!

Do you have any knowledge of your own?  Do you just do a quick google search for all your info???  I'm getting embarassed for you now. 

Where in the hell do you see me saying AAS aren't a major cardiovascular risk?  PLEASE tell me where I ever said that. 

In fact, I've said MANY times that the ARE a risk.   Read that again.....I can slow it down for you, and put it in caps.  THEY ARE A RISK.  I've said this in every post of mine!  This proves you're not reading my posts, and just furiously typing on the keyboard with rage in your heart as soon as you see my screen name.  LOL!

I'm saying that you should PERHAPS focus on the bigger risk factors. 

It's obvious that you don't have the ability to understand my sentence about you smashing your car on a pebble. 
Maybe if I had a link to it, you would be able to understand it! LOL

I'm saying QUIT MAKING A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLEHILL!  Focus on the REAL risk factors of heart disease that come from AAS use. 

Here, I'll make a little bet with you. 

I have LVH.  My septal wall has been measured at approximately 1.2-1.3 cm via echo.  My posterior wall is 1.2cm. 
I have no other risk factors for heart disease.   NONE. 

NOW, if you can find me ONE doctor (a cardiologist, not a nephrologist...) that will tell me I'm at a high risk for heart disease SOLELY because of my LVH (I'm not hypertensive either), I will never make you look stupid on a thread again. 

Deal?

nicorulez

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #339 on: July 27, 2006, 05:57:02 PM »
You are clueless.  You are at risk and don't even know it.  LVH is an independent risk factor (if it is concentric hypertrophy...see below).  If you are male, that is an independent risk factor.  If you have a positive family history that is an independent risk factor.  If you are actively taking anabolics, you are a complete and utter dumbass as that is a risk factor.  I have shown you numerous articles that show irrespective of the etiology of LVH, it is a risk factor (except exercise...see below).  Any scientist could come out here spouting supposed gospel, but a real knowledgeable person knows to back up their assertions with facts (links to actual research studies).  If I had no clue what I know to be true, I would have never found that article.  Just because you have LVH does not mean you have any inkling of its implication.  Trust me, I don't know anything else about you, but if you are under the fallacy that LVH (if it is concentric in nature) is benign you are an idiot.  What is your cholesterol.  What is you BP.  Are you diabetic.  Are you a smoker.  All of these are risk factors.  Just because you have a risk factor does not mean you are due for a cardiac cath.  It means you should have the insight to understand and not hide from your condition and try to minimize your risks for a cardiovascular event.  Trust me Mrs. PTA, you do have risk factors.  You just don't undetstand them at all; your sex alone is a risk (I have assumed you are a male). BTW, I would serously doubt that a cardiologist would be content that you have idiopathic LVH unless it attributes it completes to aerobic exercise (not weighttraining).

Let me put it to you this way.  There are different types of LVH Concentric hypertrophy is enlargment of the musculature without increased radius of the chamber.  This is associated with the type of LVH seen in steroid abusers, hypertensives, and ischemic heart disease patients.  Eccentric hypertrophy is an enlargement of the musculature of the ventricle along with the radius of the chamber.  This is seen in athlete's heart.  If this is what you have, it is benign.  If you have concentric hypertrophy, it is not so benign.  I know you hate links, but this has nice pictures.

http://www.cvphysiology.com/Heart%20Failure/HF009.htm

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #340 on: July 28, 2006, 04:50:49 AM »
I've been attending The New England's for years. Have also competed in 04 and 05. I  never formally was introduced to anthony. But spoke breifly with him once. He came across very sincere and seemed to have a true passion for our sport. i remember so well because eveywhere i seemed to look, this gigantic man always seemed to be........would have gueessed him around 250/75 every year i saw him.....R.I.P. big man

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Re: Another death in Bodybuilding
« Reply #341 on: July 28, 2006, 05:12:07 AM »
WRONG, they give them cortico- steroids (not the same thing) and in fact that was years ago. Stop posting shit you know nothing about.

Thank you.........unless you fact please do not post here !!!!!

     Their are 3 classes of steriod's
           a) Anabolic
           b)Cortico/ anti-anabolic
           c) now let's see who is quilified to answer these types of questions

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #342 on: July 28, 2006, 08:17:29 AM »
You are clueless.  You are at risk and don't even know it.  LVH is an independent risk factor (if it is concentric hypertrophy...see below).  If you are male, that is an independent risk factor.  If you have a positive family history that is an independent risk factor.  If you are actively taking anabolics, you are a complete and utter dumbass as that is a risk factor.  I have shown you numerous articles that show irrespective of the etiology of LVH, it is a risk factor (except exercise...see below).  Any scientist could come out here spouting supposed gospel, but a real knowledgeable person knows to back up their assertions with facts (links to actual research studies).  If I had no clue what I know to be true, I would have never found that article.  Just because you have LVH does not mean you have any inkling of its implication.  Trust me, I don't know anything else about you, but if you are under the fallacy that LVH (if it is concentric in nature) is benign you are an idiot.  What is your cholesterol.  What is you BP.  Are you diabetic.  Are you a smoker.  All of these are risk factors.  Just because you have a risk factor does not mean you are due for a cardiac cath.  It means you should have the insight to understand and not hide from your condition and try to minimize your risks for a cardiovascular event.  Trust me Mrs. PTA, you do have risk factors.  You just don't undetstand them at all; your sex alone is a risk (I have assumed you are a male). BTW, I would serously doubt that a cardiologist would be content that you have idiopathic LVH unless it attributes it completes to aerobic exercise (not weighttraining).

Let me put it to you this way.  There are different types of LVH Concentric hypertrophy is enlargment of the musculature without increased radius of the chamber.  This is associated with the type of LVH seen in steroid abusers, hypertensives, and ischemic heart disease patients.  Eccentric hypertrophy is an enlargement of the musculature of the ventricle along with the radius of the chamber.  This is seen in athlete's heart.  If this is what you have, it is benign.  If you have concentric hypertrophy, it is not so benign.  I know you hate links, but this has nice pictures.

http://www.cvphysiology.com/Heart%20Failure/HF009.htm

Avoiding the question again? 

I said that if you could show me one cardiologist that would put me at high risk for an MI based solely on my LVH, I would quit making you look stupid on this site. 

I have LVH.  I don't have diastolic dysfunction, I don't have dyslipidemia (in fact, my HDL is over 70), I don't use AAS, I don't have diabetes, I don't have elevated triglycerides, I don't have hypertension, I'm not obese, I exercise regularly (even completed the 2002 Chicago marathon). 

SO....I have mild LVH, diffusely measured at 1.2cm. 

Do you HONESTLY believe I'm at high risk for heart disease based on the facts given to you? 

And, just because I know you won't focus on the info I've given you, I'll also include that I have no family history of CAD, or any related risk factors. 

I'm also a white male, late 20's. 
If you need info on my SES, I can give you that via PM.

Again, I'll ask you to PLEASE stop making a mountain out of a mole hill, and focus on the REAL risk factors for heart disease that come from AAS use. 

If you do, however, honestly believe that I'm at a strong risk for heart disease based on the facts given to you (again), I'll just let you go on treating kidney disease, and thank god that you're not a cardiologist telling every athletic person that they're going to die of heart disease because their (totally normal functioning left ventricle) is borderline hypertrophied.   


shootfighter1

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #343 on: July 28, 2006, 11:30:37 AM »
I am not a cardiologist but mild LVH induced by exercise is not a risk factor for cardiac disease.  It is defined as athlete's heart and the risk if different than HOCM or pathologic perminant hypertrophy (ie caused by HTN or End stage renal disease).  Its an adaptive hypertrophy.  In most of the studies I looked at, they classified LVH as a wall thickness of 1.5 cm or greater but they also concidered filling patterns, LV mass, and LV cavity dimension and systolic function.  If your measurement was 1.2 and your a well conditioned athlete, the results of these studies may not apply to your risk.  Athletic hearts with wall thickness > 1.5 are uncommon.  Hypertrophy in athletic heart regresses with deconditioning, pathologic hypertrophy doesn't (without medicine).  Serial echocardiograms are warranted to look at patterns of progression.

"In the case of the heart, hypertrophy of the left ventricle is defined as a wall thickness greater than 1.5 cm with an increased heart weight".  Measurements of 1.2-1.5 are boarderline enlargement and can have multiple causes with varied risks.  LVH is better defined as "LV mass index exceeding 131 g/m2 in men (110 g/m2 in women)"

 In differentiating the wall hypertrophy in athlete's heart vs. pathologic hypertrophy the size of the left ventricular cavity dimension, when either < 45 or > 55 mm is important.  An Echocardiogram would measure this.  Fibrosis occurs in the pathologic hypertrophied heart but does not in the athlete's heart.

Not all LVH has the same risk factors.  There are many more variables than wall size alone to define pathologic LVH.

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #344 on: July 28, 2006, 11:45:11 AM »
I am not a cardiologist but mild LVH induced by exercise is not a risk factor for cardiac disease.  It is defined as athlete's heart and the risk if different than HOCM or pathologic perminant hypertrophy (ie caused by HTN or End stage renal disease).  Its an adaptive hypertrophy.  In most of the studies I looked at, they classified LVH as a wall thickness of 1.5 cm or greater but they also concidered filling patterns, LV mass, and LV cavity dimension and systolic function.  If your measurement was 1.2 and your a well conditioned athlete, the results of these studies may not apply to your risk.  Athletic hearts with wall thickness > 1.5 are uncommon.  Hypertrophy in athletic heart regresses with deconditioning, pathologic hypertrophy doesn't (without medicine).  Serial echocardiograms are warranted to look at patterns of progression.

"In the case of the heart, hypertrophy of the left ventricle is defined as a wall thickness greater than 1.5 cm with an increased heart weight".  Measurements of 1.2-1.5 are boarderline enlargement and can have multiple causes with varied risks.  LVH is better defined as "LV mass index exceeding 131 g/m2 in men (110 g/m2 in women)"

 In differentiating the wall hypertrophy in athlete's heart vs. pathologic hypertrophy the size of the left ventricular cavity dimension, when either < 45 or > 55 mm is important.  An Echocardiogram would measure this.  Fibrosis occurs in the pathologic hypertrophied heart but does not in the athlete's heart.

Not all LVH has the same risk factors.  There are many more variables than wall size alone to define pathologic LVH.

Shootfighter1, 
   what is your opinion on beta agonists, and their effect on the heart?  Do you feel that excessive use of clen, ephedrine, and other beta agonists is at part a cause of the "appearant" high incident of CHF in bodybuilders.  This being not necessarily from diastolic dysfunction, but actually decreased contractile ability of the LV. 

Do you think this would have any similarity to the way that cocaine attacks the cells of the myocardium? 

I'm just guessing that there is a high incident rate of CHF in bodybuilders, but given there size, it has to be a consideration.  I'm also assuming that Anthony's cardiomyopathy was of the ischemic sort, and not a hypertophic cardiomyopathy.  I'm just speculating, so no disrespect. 

In school, I actually got to do a research lab project on the effects of ephedrine and caffeine consumption on rating of percieved exertion with exercise.  We used the Bruce protocol on the treadmill.  (don't ask me how we got that approved. lol)

Some of the readings were pretty interesting.   RPE was actually quite a bit lower at any given heart rate with the ECA.  Even at peak exercise, when the subjects could go no longer, their RPE never reached above about 17 on a 6-20 scale. 
But, their heart rate, and blood pressure response was quite a bit more wild than we predicted.  Obviously, peak heart rate was pretty much unchanged, but at any given intensity, their heart rates were MUCH higher than without the ECA. 
Their blood pressure responses were even worse. 

This was before I followed bodybuilding, and before I knew anyone who used AAS. 

It's too bad there will never be any real research studies done on top level athletes (of all professions) using the enhancment techniques they will use regardless of their legal status. 



nicorulez

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #345 on: July 28, 2006, 02:15:13 PM »
Avoiding the question again? 

I said that if you could show me one cardiologist that would put me at high risk for an MI based solely on my LVH, I would quit making you look stupid on this site. 

I have LVH.  I don't have diastolic dysfunction, I don't have dyslipidemia (in fact, my HDL is over 70), I don't use AAS, I don't have diabetes, I don't have elevated triglycerides, I don't have hypertension, I'm not obese, I exercise regularly (even completed the 2002 Chicago marathon). 

SO....I have mild LVH, diffusely measured at 1.2cm. 

Do you HONESTLY believe I'm at high risk for heart disease based on the facts given to you? 

And, just because I know you won't focus on the info I've given you, I'll also include that I have no family history of CAD, or any related risk factors. 

I'm also a white male, late 20's. 
If you need info on my SES, I can give you that via PM.

Again, I'll ask you to PLEASE stop making a mountain out of a mole hill, and focus on the REAL risk factors for heart disease that come from AAS use. 

If you do, however, honestly believe that I'm at a strong risk for heart disease based on the facts given to you (again), I'll just let you go on treating kidney disease, and thank god that you're not a cardiologist telling every athletic person that they're going to die of heart disease because their (totally normal functioning left ventricle) is borderline hypertrophied.   



You are truly a dipshit.  I specifically mentioned in my last post about the different types of LVH.  You did not give me one iota of fact about what type of LVH you had.  I specifically mentioned athlete's heart was not a risk factor (which is what you have).   However, you in all of your infinite wisdom appear to believe that AAS give the same type of LVH as a runner.  That is where you are dead wrong.  If you learned to read, you would specifically see that AAS cause concentric hypertrophy of ventricle.  Read any of my posts; concentric hypertrophy (such as what AAS and HTN give you) is a high risk for cardiovascular events.  If you had one iota of medical training, you would know that what I was referring to is completely different than your conditon.  All you harped on was the LVH you had.  You gave me no insight into your medical condition, but you were defending steroids so I figured you were juicing.  Thus my posts to put you in your place.  If you would have told me you were an athlete who ran and had mild hypertrophy, I would have spared you the diatribe.  You obviously would have eccentric LVH; not a risk factor.  Thus, it was you were being coy and acting self righteous.  You have been disproven many times in this thread.  It is getting rather embarassing for you.

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #346 on: July 28, 2006, 02:21:08 PM »
You are clueless.  You are at risk and don't even know it.  LVH is an independent risk factor (if it is concentric hypertrophy...see below).  If you are male, that is an independent risk factor.  If you have a positive family history that is an independent risk factor.  If you are actively taking anabolics, you are a complete and utter dumbass as that is a risk factor.  I have shown you numerous articles that show irrespective of the etiology of LVH, it is a risk factor (except exercise...see below).  Any scientist could come out here spouting supposed gospel, but a real knowledgeable person knows to back up their assertions with facts (links to actual research studies).  If I had no clue what I know to be true, I would have never found that article.  Just because you have LVH does not mean you have any inkling of its implication.  Trust me, I don't know anything else about you, but if you are under the fallacy that LVH (if it is concentric in nature) is benign you are an idiot.  What is your cholesterol.  What is you BP.  Are you diabetic.  Are you a smoker.  All of these are risk factors.  Just because you have a risk factor does not mean you are due for a cardiac cath.  It means you should have the insight to understand and not hide from your condition and try to minimize your risks for a cardiovascular event.  Trust me Mrs. PTA, you do have risk factors.  You just don't undetstand them at all; your sex alone is a risk (I have assumed you are a male). BTW, I would serously doubt that a cardiologist would be content that you have idiopathic LVH unless it attributes it completes to aerobic exercise (not weighttraining).

Let me put it to you this way.  There are different types of LVH Concentric hypertrophy is enlargment of the musculature without increased radius of the chamber.  This is associated with the type of LVH seen in steroid abusers, hypertensives, and ischemic heart disease patients.  Eccentric hypertrophy is an enlargement of the musculature of the ventricle along with the radius of the chamber.  This is seen in athlete's heart.  If this is what you have, it is benign.  If you have concentric hypertrophy, it is not so benign.  I know you hate links, but this has nice pictures.

My quote above.  Read it Ms PTA.  It clearly talks about eccentric hypertrophy and the fact that athlete's heart is a benign condition.

Shootfighter, I am done responding to Ms PTA, but I am curious of what type of physician you are.  You appear to be quite knowledgeable about hemodynamics and physiology.  Are you internal medicine, pulmonary/critical care?  Just curious.  If you are not a physician, I assume you are a PhD.


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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #347 on: July 28, 2006, 02:46:54 PM »
You are truly a dipshit.  I specifically mentioned in my last post about the different types of LVH.  You did not give me one iota of fact about what type of LVH you had.  I specifically mentioned athlete's heart was not a risk factor (which is what you have).   However, you in all of your infinite wisdom appear to believe that AAS give the same type of LVH as a runner.  That is where you are dead wrong.  If you learned to read, you would specifically see that AAS cause concentric hypertrophy of ventricle.  Read any of my posts; concentric hypertrophy (such as what AAS and HTN give you) is a high risk for cardiovascular events.  If you had one iota of medical training, you would know that what I was referring to is completely different than your conditon.  All you harped on was the LVH you had.  You gave me no insight into your medical condition, but you were defending steroids so I figured you were juicing.  Thus my posts to put you in your place.  If you would have told me you were an athlete who ran and had mild hypertrophy, I would have spared you the diatribe.  You obviously would have eccentric LVH; not a risk factor.  Thus, it was you were being coy and acting self righteous.  You have been disproven many times in this thread.  It is getting rather embarassing for you.

Glad to see you finally admitting you were wrong, as per your quote "You obviously would have eccentric LVH; not a risk factor."

But, you're yesterday's news.  We're on to new topics here.  You were getting boring anyway.   

Also, for your information, (since with your infinite wisdom, you couldn't have been more wrong about me), I AM in the medical profession. 
Specifically, I have my bachelor's in Exercise Physiology, and my Master's in Kinesiology.  I am currently running the Phase III cardiac Rehab program at a top 15 Cardiology hospital.  I am involved in all phases of the cardiac rehab program as well.  I am cross trained as an echocardiographer, and am in fact one of two people in the entire nation qualified for the REVIVAL percutaneous Aortic Valve replacement research study echocardiographic measurement protocol. 

I was co-author of the nutrition and training section of a top selling cardiology book (aimed at the general public). 

My wife is a D.D.S
My mother was an RN (now is C.O.O of her hospital)
My grandmother was an RN, My aunt is an RN
My good friend since grade school is chief fellow of his cardiology program at the hospital I work at. 
Another good friend is an anesthesiologist
My mother's best friend is a CRNA

So....I am not a doctor, but I have been involved in the medical profession my whole life. 

I know many people who do choose to use AAS, but sadly, we'll never be able to do any research into how it's use effects the body.  This is in large part to douche bag arrogant docs like you, who are more set in trying to prove to others that they know more, than actually finding the risks involved with what they're talking about. 

I'm sure your bedside manner is as lovely as you show here, especially from your statement about telling "soccer moms" how dumb they are for trying to help you find out what is wrong with their kids.  (I'm sure you're thinking, how DARE they attempt to be a D O C T O R!!!???  That is MY job.)

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #348 on: July 28, 2006, 04:04:07 PM »
Nicorulz,   
    Also, please realize that there is VAST differences between LVH in runners, strength athletes, and HTN patients. 

The heart adapts to stresses in many ways.  The first way a heart adapts to extra "work" is to hypertrophy.  The second is the frank-starling method of increasing pre-load, to increase output.  Finally, there are changes to the mico level of the myocardium.  The final stage is what causes the problems with LVH.  This is what is seen in HTN patients. 

Take Lance Armstrong for example.  I guarantee that his echo would be fairly ugly.  He probably has some level of LVH, and probably even more dilation.  In fact, many top endurance athletes almost appear to have ischemic cardiomyopathies with basic cardiac testing. 
Even there EF's will appear quite low, and at the ischemic level. 

But, what isn't always understood by the doctor is that these hearts are functioning normally.  There is no need for a high ejection fraction when your LV size is nearing 6cm.  The heart does what is necessary for the workload put on it. 

Many strength athletes will appear to have a HOCM type appearance to their heart.  You can occasionally hear s3 and S4 sounds.  Their echo will appear to be cardiomyopathic in etiology as well.  They will have very clear echo windows.  They will appear to have low EF. 
But, this is very different than LVH that comes from a HTN patient with years of continues increased back loads on the LV. 
With exercise, even the most intense, and long duration exercise, you're looking at abnormal loads being placed on the heart for a matter of just minutes a day. 
Compare this to a patient with HTN, who's heart is under increased loads for every single hour of the day, for years on end.  You can see how quickly those hearts will power through the 3 mechanisms for adaption MUCH faster than an athletes heart. 

The thing with medicine is, you're dealing with minor standard deviations from the norm in every patient.  It is VERY rare to see a patient at an extreme end of the bell curve in a given area. 

AAS patients can probably be considered at a far end of that curve. 

Since you're so big on links, and abstracts, look up some stuff on Blase Carabello, one of the top cardiologists in the world.  His ideas on athlete's hearts, and various forms of LVH are pretty interesting. 

Sometimes you have to think beyond the basics in treating your patients.

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Re: Anthony D'Arezzo - RIP
« Reply #349 on: July 28, 2006, 04:43:03 PM »
ETA, you never once said you were an athlete.  You just stated point of fact I have LVH.  What the fuck does that mean.  The way you were posting, I assumed you were a AAS user.  I admit nothing wrong.  You are the dipshit who has not an iota of medical background behind you.  ::) ::)  I pointed the significant side effect of concentric LVH (the type that is associated with hypertension and AAS).  Please, spare me any didactic teaching from an individual who obviously has the medical background of the average tenth grader in high school.  ::) ::)  I have repeatedly pointed out your inaccurate assertions from the get go.  You never once even mentioned athlete's heart.  To be honest, I doubt you even had a clue of what it was until I pointed it out.  Regardless, you are about as intelligent as the average chimp.  Just because you know somebody in medicine hardly makes you an expert.  I know a professional tennis; I couldn't play to save my life.  Move on and ask some intelligent questions.  Most of your quetions and response are very banal.  ;)