STEVE REEVES- behind the scenes (only for getbiggers,,only on getbig!)

[pumpster]

you're in a better position than most to make a judgement call, but it appears the jury's still out on this one.

in any case, one can certainly see why steve was becoming somewhat distressed at what he was seeing.

he was alive to see bodybuilding become an industry more obsessed with drugs and size for size's sake than physical culture. something that he was passionate about it became a freakshow before his very eyes and that's gotta hurt.

the cold hard reality is that every athletic endeavour has to progress. it's the nature of the beast. jumpers MUST jump higher, sprinters MUST sprint faster, throwers MUST throw further...you get the point.

if he did use testosterone or anything else, there IS one thing we can all be certain of, that it wasn't in the same stratosphere as what was to become.

is that a defence to his (possible) use of testosterone? no, but imo he doesn't need one. he probably drank alcohol and coke (which contained cocaine back then) 2 FAR more harmful drugs than testosterone and no one would have thought anything of it.

face it, this is about cheating. people want to believe that their heroes never did ANYTHING so human as using an aid to make things EASIER. heroes don't do that, they do things HARD man. fight wars, famine, move mountains and shit,then they get drunk off their tits and f**k 3 beautiful women for 16 hours straight WITHOUT FUCKING VIAGRA OK. you know, something like what he did in the hercules movies.

damn, one month to go 'til christmas! i wonder what santa claus is going to put in my stocking?

I think "Beast" should start with a Steve Reeves blow-up doll. Frightening but very predictable homosexual reverence.

[BEAST 8692]

"And I do know for a fact that he chewed his food a minimum of 20 times before swallowing anything as a way of helping his digestive functions."

up until this sentence,,,your story was beautiful,,,

and beast,,you "met" many like reeves,,larry scott,,frank zane,,gaspari,,you met them all.

last week i was training in some gym and i saw there this 185lb lifter,,,he came in the lockers and talked to me asked questions,,it started with him tellin me he was doing nationals 3 years ago and doesnt/didnt use hormones at all,,,i was like...ok... since i know exactly what each and every person use almost to the t.

it ended after an hour or so at the middle of the gym,,while other guys were taking about gear use,,,he suddenly remembered he has done gh prescribed by a doc,,,and done testosterone/dianabol/halo and some coke and meth when he was training with marcus back in florida,,,and that he ordered igf and the source only sent him 3 kits and forgot the extra bonus forth (for every 3 you buy you get one free)

he had the courage at the end to ask me if i prefer clen tabs or liquid,,,for his girl...

the reason i LOVE bodybuilding is the ability to impress society with my size and muscle mass
the reason i HATE bodybuilding is the LIES

i rarely find honest bodybuilders,,i consider myself honest but! to your face among people,,i will lie like a dog

very true.

i think most male bodybuilders hold on tightly on to the notion that the only reason they aren't built like the pros is because they haven't crossed the steroid frontier. it provides an excuse for their failure and i guess it satisfys their fragile ego.

when said bodybuilder finally crosses that final frontier and realize they still aren't built anything like the pros they simply deny they have used at all.

steroids also have that stigma of cheating and to admit taking them undermines all the hard work they have put into their physiques, taking into account the very reason most bodybuild in the first place is to impress, not to be called a drug cheat.

even when steroids were legal and relatively tame practically NONE of the successful athletes (or those wishing to remain so) admitted to using steroids.

guys like scott would expound on the virtues of blairs milk and cream product proclaiming 'milk' the missing ingredient that enabled him to finally turn those 13" pipe cleaners into the 20" guns that catapulted him to fame.

no doubt larry chewed his food at least 30 times. i mean, he wasn't just a health freak he was also a devout mormon who wouldn't dream of telling a lie.

anyway, when he finally did admit the truth he would only admit to about 10mg of dball a day (or something). ok larry, all your competitors were popping them like candy but you only took about a third of a tablet a day 

this was a long time after he retired btw so, imo, he has about as much credibility as this 'pump' moron that trolls the boards.

if steve reeves was alive today would he have finally admitted to using testosterone? this guy was 220lb apparently. i'm thinking he would have been pretty self obsessed to get that big. i assume he was using extra vitamins and supplements. is it really beyond the imagination to conceive that he MAY have used some 'harmless' (back then) testosterone?

i guess we'll never know for sure, but nothing alters the fact that reeves was a great champion.

[stuntmovie]

On the subject of Reeves, someone on another post mentioned that he had done some nude posing for photographs but he could not find them on the net.

Steve did some nude shots back in his day when he was near his peak but they were artistic enough to hang on gym walls without offending anyone. They were "side nudity" shots = twisted lat shot and a seated tri/bi shot if I recall correctly.

They were certainly not pornographic shots by today's standards.

[TheGoldenPrince]

That's an eyeopener for sure.

[Jay Em]

I thought I'd add some personalized information on Reeves from whom, I
consider, a pretty reliable source; certainly an iron icon in his own right,
Dan Lurie. If you don't know, Dan is attempting to re-enter the bodybuilding scene because of his own disappointment on how the iron game and bodybuilding stage has "progressed," into more emphasis on drugs than genetics; (monster) size over shape & symmetry, etc. He's entering on the published word level as well as the competitive dias level (no, not him!). The emphasis on both of these major fronts is drug-free; returning the sport to its once golden, former glory, or at least as close as possible.

I recently asked Dan about Steve and DRUGS. Here's his direct response, given
within the past several weeks.

Dan: "...We were very close and good friends...sharing broadway shows (with
the wives)...and snowball fights in Times Square (Dan's home turf in New York)."

More: "...Steve and I discussed steroids many times...Steve Reeves never took
steroids in his life...".

He went on to remember visiting the Reeves ranch in San Diego and observing
how he (Reeves) grew all his own vegetables, etc. A health "nut" for sure.

I just thought I'd add this testimony from the whatever-it-is-worth department,
perhaps adding some (personal) credibility to this debate. Although legally this
is considered hearsay, since Steve and Dan enjoyed a close friendship, regular
buds of sorts, Reeves was generally thought of by everyone who knew him to
be a straight shooter; one who didn't lie and fabricate things and stories for
the pure sake of it. His word was pretty much his bond (influenzed no doubt
by his Montana ranch upbringing and strong uncle role model). And Dan Lurie
certainly has no axe to grind at his age (83) by saying something that weren't true. But, in his own way, he would like to advance some truths concerning
Reeves as HE KNOWS THEM.

As would I...

[BEAST 8692]

I thought I'd add some personalized information on Reeves from whom, I
consider, a pretty reliable source; certainly an iron icon in his own right,
Dan Lurie. If you don't know, Dan is attempting to re-enter the bodybuilding scene because of his own disappointment on how the iron game and bodybuilding stage has "progressed," into more emphasis on drugs than genetics; (monster) size over shape & symmetry, etc. He's entering on the published word level as well as the competitive dias level (no, not him!). The emphasis on both of these major fronts is drug-free; returning the sport to its once golden, former glory, or at least as close as possible.

I recently asked Dan about Steve and DRUGS. Here's his direct response, given
within the past several weeks.

Dan: "...We were very close and good friends...sharing broadway shows (with
the wives)...and snowball fights in Times Square (Dan's home turf in New York)."

More: "...Steve and I discussed steroids many times...Steve Reeves never took
steroids in his life...".

He went on to remember visiting the Reeves ranch in San Diego and observing
how he (Reeves) grew all his own vegetables, etc. A health "nut" for sure.

I just thought I'd add this testimony from the whatever-it-is-worth department,
perhaps adding some (personal) credibility to this debate. Although legally this
is considered hearsay, since Steve and Dan enjoyed a close friendship, regular
buds of sorts, Reeves was generally thought of by everyone who knew him to
be a straight shooter; one who didn't lie and fabricate things and stories for
the pure sake of it. His word was pretty much his bond (influenzed no doubt
by his Montana ranch upbringing and strong uncle role model). And Dan Lurie
certainly has no axe to grind at his age (83) by saying something that weren't true. But, in his own way, he would like to advance some truths concerning
Reeves as HE KNOWS THEM.

As would I...

nice article but, coming from lurie, i'll take it with a grain of salt.

lurie used to say EVERYONE was natural. especially if they were with him.

it is certainly in lurie's interest to say that reeves was completely natural because he is trying to present a 'golden age' of when bbing was wonderful and healthy.

all the old competitors will do their best to maintain that image. most have convinced themselves to such an extent that they actually sincerely believe it.

for example. i was talking with an old ex powerlifter a while back that claimed to know reg park and swore black and blue that reg was completely clean, would never dream of 'cheating' or 'puting that shit into his body', etc (the usual retorts). well, i almost believed this guy until i found out years later that reg took his fair share of dianabol.

think about it. why wouldn't these guys take 'supplements' that they actually knew worked and were prescribed to them by doctors (ziegler et all) who presented them as being relatively harmless. the negative stigma about steroids didn't really hit until the 1980's and boy did it hit hard (all the 'commy' countries creating monsters and all that western media hyped propaganda). so hard that everyone wanted to disassociate themselves from it.

[gh15]

youre a smart man beast,,

[Joe Roark]

nice article but, coming from lurie, i'll take it with a grain of salt.

lurie used to say EVERYONE was natural. especially if they were with him.

it is certainly in lurie's interest to say that reeves was completely natural because he is trying to present a 'golden age' of when bbing was wonderful and healthy.

all the old competitors will do their best to maintain that image. most have convinced themselves to such an extent that they actually sincerely believe it.

for example. i was talking with an old ex powerlifter a while back that claimed to know reg park and swore black and blue that reg was completely clean, would never dream of 'cheating' or 'puting that shit into his body', etc (the usual retorts). well, i almost believed this guy until i found out years later that reg took his fair share of dianabol.

think about it. why wouldn't these guys take 'supplements' that they actually knew worked and were prescribed to them by doctors (ziegler et all) who presented them as being relatively harmless. the negative stigma about steroids didn't really hit until the 1980's and boy did it hit hard (all the 'commy' countries creating monsters and all that western media hyped propaganda). so hard that everyone wanted to disassociate themselves from it.

How did you find out that Park took the drug? And by 'found out' do you mean it was proven, or that someone told you and you accepted it as proven? Thanks.

[BEAST 8692]

How did you find out that Park took the drug? And by 'found out' do you mean it was proven, or that someone told you and you accepted it as proven? Thanks.

sorry, no conclusive proof, only hearsay. Put it this way, i personally believe the source 100% and it's not like it's a great secret amongst those that knew him. i didn't know him and have never met him. reg park has never publically admitted to taking steroids (as far as i know) which would probably be the ONLY way that it COULD be concusively PROVEN at this point in time. i doubt reg will ever do this either because he is another that wants to preserve both his own legacy and that of the 'golden age'. if anyone is naive enough to believe this bull shit then good for them. i mean steve reeves, possibly, but reg park? seriously, that's a stretch.

Joe, do you honestly believe that reg was completely natural? competitors of the time that were a lot less massive/strong than reg have admitted to using steroids but we are going to say that reg didn't?

[Joe Roark]

sorry, no conclusive proof, only hearsay. Put it this way, i personally believe the source 100% and it's not like it's a great secret amongst those that knew him. i didn't know him and have never met him. reg park has never publically admitted to taking steroids (as far as i know) which would probably be the ONLY way that it COULD be concusively PROVEN at this point in time. i doubt reg will ever do this either because he is another that wants to preserve both his own legacy and that of the 'golden age'. if anyone is naive enough to believe this bull shit then good for them. i mean steve reeves, possibly, but reg park? seriously, that's a stretch.

Joe, do you honestly believe that reg was completely natural? competitors of the time that were a lot less massive/strong than reg have admitted to using steroids but we are going to say that reg didn't?

What I believe and what I can prove are two different matters. I would tend to believe that both Reeves and Park were clean- I have a letter Reg wrote to me in which he denies having taken drugs, and by all accounts Steve had an uncanny and unusual ability to get into shape very quickly in an era long before the British magazines began talking about 'tissue drugs' or Hoffman revealed the magic behind the curtain as isometrics.

My position is that I will not paint with a broad brush whether positively or negatively (although currently this is much easier to do). The affirmative (that Steve & Reg used) has the burden of proof, and although I also have contacts I trust (as you mentioned you have) none has so informed me. Grimek did not use during his competitive days and he and Reeves overlapped in the late 1940s- I know that proves nothing, but it hints at perspective.

The obvious period in which drug use became evident in the magazines is approximately 1960-1965; that is, grab the magazines from that era, spread them out and study the photos- amazing, quick development.

I have no problem pointing out the negative of the sport, if it can be proved (such as some of Anderson's attributed unofficial lifts), but to offer as proof jibes or sarcastic comments falls short of what I consider proof.

[stuntmovie]

Well stated, Joe. Thanks.

[BEAST 8692]

What I believe and what I can prove are two different matters. I would tend to believe that both Reeves and Park were clean- I have a letter Reg wrote to me in which he denies having taken drugs, and by all accounts Steve had an uncanny and unusual ability to get into shape very quickly in an era long before the British magazines began talking about 'tissue drugs' or Hoffman revealed the magic behind the curtain as isometrics.

My position is that I will not paint with a broad brush whether positively or negatively (although currently this is much easier to do). The affirmative (that Steve & Reg used) has the burden of proof, and although I also have contacts I trust (as you mentioned you have) none has so informed me. Grimek did not use during his competitive days and he and Reeves overlapped in the late 1940s- I know that proves nothing, but it hints at perspective.

The obvious period in which drug use became evident in the magazines is approximately 1960-1965; that is, grab the magazines from that era, spread them out and study the photos- amazing, quick development.

I have no problem pointing out the negative of the sport, if it can be proved (such as some of Anderson's attributed unofficial lifts), but to offer as proof jibes or sarcastic comments falls short of what I consider proof.

'what i believe and what i can prove' is very true in the real world of course and from that position i can not debate the point. bearing in mind, of course, that if a user does not admit his use then there is not going to be proof eg. if ronnie coleman or jay cutler refused to ever admit to any anabolic drugs then how could we refute that? failure of a drug test perhaps but even that's not always conclusive.

one of the things that i respect about contemporary bodybuilders is that they are some of the only athletes in the world who are willing to talk publically about their use of these drugs. of course they often get unceremoniously flamed because of it, but it gives the arm chair athletes another reason why they couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't suceed at sports.

champion athletes have far too much to lose by disclosure ie multi million dollar contracts, livelihood, status (personal, law and athletic), legacy, etc.

Joe, for these reasons and others aforementioned i will have to agree to disagree on the issue of reg park. imo, there is enough circumstantial evidence to go with the hearsay to sustain my belief.

[Jay Em]

Some well taken points, Beast, but your hearsay is even weaker than mine.
At least mine came from the horses mouth. And given your points, geez it
pretty much suggests that everyone was a liar and (nearly) everyone took
drugs. And you know, just by common sense, that neither of those points
could possible be true. Mankind never goes with the flow 100%. Personally,
I first learned about steroids, D-bol & Anavar (that's was it!) in 1964-5. One
of my best gym buddies got on it when I was in Marine boot camp (back in
Minnesota). In just six months the guy transformed his body, literally. Did I
want to get out of the Corps and rush to the nearest druggest? Afterall, I had
been a regular weighthead and now my buddy was a muscle monster! No, it
actually had the opposite effect on me. Hey, that's just cheating, I thought.
To take something so artifical and foreign into one's body to grow couldn't be
right...and healthy. And I knew it was synthetic. And that's ALL anyone knew
back then on those limited substances--which were not illegal!

To take this broad sweeping brush and swipe it across humanity and suggest
all or most or even a majority took steroids is simply not intelligent. It gives
practically no credit to trainees and competitors regarding choice and personal
integrity. And, in a way, those which did TRY steroids, especially at those
small dosages, should be understood and excused somewhat because the
times were so radically different. They knew so little. They knew virtually
nothing of possible side effects or negative ramifications. And that included
most doctors and medical practitioners. And this of course also includes
competitive bodybuilders, on all levels. Some of these guys also took or tried
them classifying their use in the nutritional vein. They just saw "muscle" and
forged ahead. Some of course back then didn't care about any possible side
effects or anything else. They just wanted more muscle or more strength,
at any price. But that basically went against the times as physical culture was
still a fairly big part of the iron game. In otherwords, that was a minority. In a
way, those that did take advantage (for lack of a better term) of steroids, did
so in a manner similair to a trainee/competitor nowadays looking for the next
great nutritional muscle enhancer, whether it be creatine or an NO-protein
product. At the most, they viewed steroids as "extra" test; certainly that
couldn't hurt...a little additional body boost, could it! In virtually no way, can
you compare present day steroid use and abuse (& knowledge) with the "old"
days. It's like comparing apples to...raisens.

Personally, I think it to be unfortunate for anyone, Reg Park included, to "lie"
about past steroid use (or experimentation), but that's a personal choice and
one that a person has to internalize his own way. But to use speculation and
(negative) hearsay against his goodwill and personal integrity is plain ass
wrong. This would apply to Steve Reeves, John Grimek or John Doe down at
24-hour fitness. If someone insists they didn't use, and lifestyle, friends and
associates support their contentions, then certainly their integrity should be
given the benefit of the doubt and their word honored.

Again, A, B, & C doesn't necessarily equal D. Basic philosophy will prove most
allegations wrong, or at least, inaccurate all day long, from Plato to Pitt. It is
also what modern day law is based upon; the reasonable man theory. For the
overwhelming most part, it is effective.

And to me, and many, many others (practically all who know...), nothing has
ever been proven that Steve Reeves ever took--or even tried--steroids or
drugs. To the contrary. The facts overwhelmingly point to innocence. And even if some past (oldtimer) bodybuilding icon/star did try or use some steroids, whatever, it probably wouldn't have been enough to make a horse snoot twice. It would have been like a knat on an elephant's behind. Or,
trying to look up and find a bird on top of the Empire State Building.

And just out of curiosity, what in the WORLD does trying to prove that Reeves
or anyone else from the bygone eras took drugs have to do with present day steroid/drug abuse?? What??

It seems it's like an excuse to use, abuse or otherwise cop-out to the fact
that certain people can't get 18-inch arms or bench 400-pounds without their
own outside assistance, so they must say--to excuse themselves--that
everybody must have this or that to succeed. Gee, I busted my hump as hard as Donald Trump and I ain't got a pot to piss in. Therefore, Trump must be a crook, dishonest and a liar cause he's got it...and I ain't.

Again, back to basic philosophy.

Throw that Trump card out of your deck, cause it don't work in this blame game.
 

[gh15]

1. nothing that was said on here is against reeves as a bodybuilder. he was a phenominal bodybuilder.

2. no one is trying to prove reeves experiemnted with hormones,,it's a known fact to any serious bodybuilder.

3. there is no connection to todays drug abuse. no connection what so ever beside the fact that reeves was the begining of what he came to hate.

4. you  better have 18 inch arms before you reach 315lb incline bench press,,because if not you got zero chance in competetive bodybuilding as of 2006. yes hormones will help you get to 18 inch but when you bench press 400+ poundage you better have 20 inch arms,,,otherwize bodybuiding is not your cup of tea.

5. donald is a theif,,crook,, and rich why??because he knows how to manipulate people and get away with it like any good ceo

[Joe Roark]

1. nothing that was said on here is against reeves as a bodybuilder. he was a phenominal bodybuilder.

2. no one is trying to prove reeves experiemnted with hormones,,it's a known fact to any serious bodybuilder.

3. there is no connection to todays drug abuse. no connection what so ever beside the fact that reeves was the begining of what he came to hate.

4. you  better have 18 inch arms before you reach 315lb incline bench press,,because if not you got zero chance in competetive bodybuilding as of 2006. yes hormones will help you get to 18 inch but when you bench press 400+ poundage you better have 20 inch arms,,,otherwize bodybuiding is not your cup of tea.

5. donald is a theif,,crook,, and rich why??because he knows how to manipulate people and get away with it like any good ceo

Regarding point 2: his use is a known fact to any serious bodybuilder?

There are many serious bodybuilders who are unsure of much about Steve Reeves because they are young and unstudied in ironhistory. I assume you mean serious student of bodybuilding history? If so, I take exception to the statement, because I fancy myself to be in that category, and rather than see the claim as known fact I see it as known rumor.

I could just as easily, and just as weakly, say that it is a known fact among serious students of bodybuilding history that Reeves never used. My statement would be an inert as yours, except you have the burden of proof, which is not met with simple assertions.

At any rate, we disagree, and unless you can supply something beyond what has been offered so far as 'proof', then I will drop out of this pointless discussion.

[knny187]

'what i believe and what i can prove' is very true in the real world of course and from that position i can not debate the point. bearing in mind, of course, that if a user does not admit his use then there is not going to be proof eg. if ronnie coleman or jay cutler refused to ever admit to any anabolic drugs then how could we refute that? failure of a drug test perhaps but even that's not always conclusive.

one of the things that i respect about contemporary bodybuilders is that they are some of the only athletes in the world who are willing to talk publically about their use of these drugs. of course they often get unceremoniously flamed because of it, but it gives the arm chair athletes another reason why they couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't suceed at sports.

champion athletes have far too much to lose by disclosure ie multi million dollar contracts, livelihood, status (personal, law and athletic), legacy, etc.

Joe, for these reasons and others aforementioned i will have to agree to disagree on the issue of reg park. imo, there is enough circumstantial evidence to go with the hearsay to sustain my belief.

 

[knny187]

who's that opening the fridge? cutler?

you can't tell by the chin?


Yes...of course it is.....MR OLYMPIA himself!

 

[Casey Butt]

I don't see any reason to conclude that Reeves used test or its derivatives. For one, test itself wasn't approved by the FDA for perscription until 1950. If bodybuilders were using it before that then they were experimenting with a "drug" that wasn't widely available or that the FDA itself was confident in.

Reeves weighed between 210 and 215 at 6'1" in lean, but not "ripped" condition. Steroid use was not necessary to develop his level of muscle, so why suspect that he experimented with an unpractical, unavailable and unapproved "drug"? If he did, he certainly didn't achieve anything that couldn't be achieved without it.

Same with Park. He won the 1951 Universe weighing 214 pounds at 6'1". He appeared to be leaner than Reeves but he also had a heavier bone structure. In '58, when he won the professional Mr. Universe, he weighed 213. Obviously, he had a phenomenal physique, but the bodyweight just doesn't necessitate steroid use. If he eventually did use steroids, it would have to have been later.

Both of these men carried about 25 pounds more muscle than the average male U.S. Army recruit of the same height. It isn't at all unrealistic to think that 25 pounds of muscle could be gained by these men without steroid use.

Also, several statistical analyses of weightlifting performances seem to indicate that the Soviet team began experimenting with steroids in 1952. It's not practical to conclude that a few bodybuilders were ahead of them in regards to this. And if they were, why did they respond so poorly to it?

So, I see no reason to believe that Reeves, Park, Grimek, etc were using steroids in the early 1950s and before.

[Alex23]

Reeves was natural.  End of story.

ahahaha poop poop is pounting... he was not...

did I just heard your dream shatter?

[onlyme]

Reeves was just not built like he took anything.  And as Jayem said, he was really into health and eating clean.  I just don't see it.  If he did I would bet it was a very short time cause he either didn't see results or he didn't like the results he saw.  He was great looking (in face and body), had a successful career in Hollywood and did very well for himself and ate clean as heck.  I just don't see why he would take a chance with roids.  Reg was thick and denser and he looks more like he took stuf than Steve.  Did Steve have any outrageous lifts that possibly could result from usage.  And no matter what, if he used it is miniscule to what they do nowadays.

[BEAST 8692]

'Both of these men carried about 25 pounds more muscle than the average male U.S. Army recruit of the same height. It isn't at all unrealistic to think that 25 pounds of muscle could be gained by these men without steroid use.'

this is my only issue with your post Casey. The average u.s. army 'recruit' of 190lbs (apparently) physical status, i can guarantee, was far from reg park contest condition.

knny, i thought that was roger ramjet . is that cutler's fridge? does he actually use those vials? are they his? is he diabetic?, etc, etc, etc. i'd get him off, verdict: not enough evidence.

Jay Em, by 'horses mouth' i assume you're talking about reeves? i'm not arguing the point on reeves (i have absolutely zero on him).

I don't know about the 'broad brush' bit. i am only pointing the finger at reg here, as unfair as that is i can guarantee i won't be taking him to task on it.

as onlyme said, reg has that 'look' and he trained with some phenomenal poundages (caveat: i know onlyme was not directly accusing reg in any way).

[Cleanest Natural]

why is it so heaRTBREAKING TO FIND OUT THAT your heros were built with the help of drugs....drugs built bodyes and worldwars were fought on drugs...accept the truth...and get on with your life....jesus , Weider was THE master advertiser...gay , drugs, egocentrism, have been around sports since the beginnings.

[Figo]

Master Advertiser, very good.

Abuser of Champions since 1936.

[Cleanest Natural]

well to realize just how shrewd of a bussiness man he was/is....just look at all the people in denial who grew up with flex, m&f, etc....now they grow up and all ofasudden...bam!...their idols are all juiced which is ok...cause it's been part of the game for more then 60 years...but they can't believe that reality is different then what the powers to be present it to be.

[Figo]

I cried myself to sleep for a while, but the therapy got me through the tough times.