pec dec vs. dumbbells for flyes

[texasRUSH]

is there any major difference? the dumbbells hurt my wrist as opposed to the dec...but i'm trying to make sure i'm not missing out on something important here by using the dec more than the dumbbells.  I use about 20 more total lbs on the dec than i do with the free weights too...

[pumpster]

Pec deck's are usually better for several reasons:

-Better isolation by taking other areas out of the equation.

-Constant tension-you would have to do pulley flys to get same, DBs won't give you that. The tension helps especially at the top of the movement which hits the inner chest.

-Machines including decks are superior for those with injuries.


The only problem with pec decks is sometimes the design-well designed ones work the chest very effectively, poorly designed ones can target and aggrevate the shoulders.

[Overload]

Pec deck's are usually better for several reasons:

-Better isolation by taking other areas out of the equation.

-Constant tension-you would have to do pulley flys to get same, DBs won't give you that. The tension helps especially at the top of the movement which hits the inner chest.

-Machines including decks are superior for those with injuries.


The only problem with pec decks is sometimes the design-well designed ones work the chest very effectively, poorly designed ones can target and aggrevate the shoulders.

I agree with everything...

i use cables or the pec-dec for flyes...i haven't done a DB flye in over a year, all they did was aggrevate my elbows. i get better results with cables or pec-dec, the only problem is most pec-decs don't have enough weight.

 

[pumpster]

Cables are underrated for almost every application; I hardly ever use free weights anymore except for linear movements like squats.

[texasRUSH]

our dec goes up to 100lbs per side...

i'm using it for sets..feels great...loving the pump..just wanted to make sure i wasn't hosing myself out of something more beneficial than the other. Like overload...dumbbells are aggrevating but to my wrists instead of my elbows.

[pumpster]

Sometimes when you reach failure on the pec deck do some partials-either the bottom, middle or top third of the movement.

[Bluto]

why do you do flyes at all if i may ask?

[pumpster]

Better yet, why even train?

[alexxx]

why do you do flyes at all if i may ask?

So he can work in with his favorite musclebear enthusiast, Danielson.

[Overload]

why do you do flyes at all if i may ask?

Same reason i do any other movement...

Your opinion may vary, but that doesn't mean they don't work...

 

[Dball]

I agree with everything...

i use cables or the pec-dec for flyes...i haven't done a DB flye in over a year, all they did was aggrevate my elbows. i get better results with cables or pec-dec, the only problem is most pec-decs don't have enough weight.

 

i thought you like max-ot, which says pec dec is a no-no?

[Chevybigguns]

Cable flys and dumbells i feel are the way to go and grow

[dontknowit]

i thought you like max-ot, which says pec dec is a no-no?

And it's true,
the peck-deck is the most overrated, useless device that you can find in every gym. Some gyms have more than one,
and just on simple lousy cable installation where you cannot adjust the height. Now that's bogus.

PecDec does jackshit for chest,
it trains shoulders and a bunch of other muscles, and everybody finding out what exactly should be granted a noble-price, but it doesn't do anything for chest.

With cable, preferably on a bench, you can hit the muscle from different kind of angles. So if the gym got cables, use it,
if not, tell the owner to buy one, even if it's a used one.



And don't do dumb things like claiming that you're using it for a pump. That's so gay,
use the thing as a massbuilder and go heavy.

[Overload]

i thought you like max-ot, which says pec dec is a no-no?

Yes i like it and no i don't live by it.

i think it's a great plateau breaker and very good protocol for newbies...i still use a modified version of it sometimes.


 

[pumpster]

Quote from: Dball on August 24, 2006, 11:26:19 PM
i thought you like max-ot, which says pec dec is a no-no?

And it's true,
the peck-deck is the most overrated, useless device that you can find in every gym. Some gyms have more than one,
and just on simple lousy cable installation where you cannot adjust the height. Now that's bogus.

That generalization suggests that you're uninformed. As I mentioned, it depends on the design, some of which are great-comparable or better than cable flys because they're even more direct. The poor designs, as i already mentioned, are excellent for focusing on and potentially f**** up the shoulders. The Nautilus pec deck for example, which based on some of their other pieces should've been good, wasn't.

As far as max-ot, it's for you to try exercises for yourself vs. having someone else tell you what to think.

[dontknowit]

This is max-ot
it's not the solution,
but a lot of usefull information. It's basically telling you to go for heavy compound-excersise.

http://www.freedomfly.net/Documents/MAX-OT.pdf

btw, I'm not an adapt of it.

[pumpster]

It's basically telling you to go for heavy compound-excersise.

This school of thought, that compounds are better, is followed by some. In regards to BB and development it's not any more valid than anything else; in fact i've often found the exact opposite, depending on the muscle. Better to be open-minded and try everything, as you've said, then decide for yourself.

[dontknowit]

There is no better compromise if you want to get bigger and heavier.

And levermachines will always stay the substitute for barbell/dumbell and cable.

The biggest challenge with BB is diet,
with a good diet you don't even have to touch weights, simple body-exercises like push-ups, pull-ups and other basic exercises are enough, and with a low bodyfat all the muscles will appear.

The problem, actually a society problem, we want more.

How do you do that;
you go heavy, muscle exist out of two types of fibers,
1=slow
2(a/b)=fast
2(b) is the type we need cause it has the biggest growpotential.

I do have good experience with levermachines,
fie the life-fitness-hammerstrenght series especially the cable-series, but they keep being a substitute. They can't replace an exercise like dumbellpress, they can't replace an exercise like deadlift or squat,
they only add a certain degree of difference in your arsenal,
but replacing certain basic exercise, impossible.

This sport is older than every levermachine that has ever existed and will survive every levermachine. The old Greek strived the body of an adonis, and they succeeded in a very basic way. Don't change winning formula.

[pumpster]

There is no better compromise if you want to get bigger and heavier.

And levermachines will always stay the substitute for barbell/dumbell and cable.

The whole thought-process and assumption is wrong, but widely shared. Sometimes machines-lever, pulleys, Smith, etc. are better. My own conclusions are shared by huge BBs like Yates, Coleman and Oliva who sometimes prefer the advantages found with lever machines, Smith machines and cables over the weaknesses sometimes found with free weights. The reality is that in some cases lever machines, pulleys, etc. are considerably better than free weights plus they usually facilitate harder training because of the potential to train more safely to failure.

Always amused by the many who dogedly stick to the free-weight mantra, when in fact there's very little logical basis. I think free weights are associated with and related to the macho-man syndrome various BBs can't get rid of.

[dontknowit]

... My own conclusions are shared by huge BBs like Yates, Coleman and Oliva who sometimes prefer the advantages found with lever machines, Smith machines and cables over the weaknesses sometimes found with free weights...

I'm familiar with those quotes;
and only for two excersises,

legpress as an alternative for the squat, and leverrow for BOR,
and just for one fact only,
you can go heavy without hurting your lower back cause that's your weakest of your body.

Cable has the advantage of missing the dead point.

About yates, he used lever cause he snapped almost every muscle he had. And he still kept doing excersise like deadlift, BOR, bench-press.
Coleman and Smith The have to design a new one. Olivia loved cable's as I recall.


And the all shared the same basics, barbells and dumbells. Don't look what's different, look what's the same You simply cannot change a changing that's not been there for years, decade's or centuries,
it's been there for millenia.
If you believe that there better alternatives, I have to say that you're wrong,
levermachine tend to isolate the muscle to much, and that will alway's be a disadvantage. Even if you're using cable the small supporting muscles will not be trained.

[GoneAway]

I don't use pec dec that often, but I've noticed a better contraction in the pecs than DB flyes. You can probably get a longer ROM with DB flies, though.

[pumpster]

I'm familiar with those quotes;
and only for two excersises,

legpress as an alternative for the squat, and leverrow for BOR

The english is so bad it's barely readable. There are plenty of examples, you're just unaware of them. 

Yates used and liked the lever row so much that they named one of the models after him. It wasn't just because of injury, where did you get that? He used and still uses leverage row, pulldown and pullover machines amongst the machines he uses.

Yates preferred Smith squats to free weight because of the superior effect he felt they afforded him.

Yates, like *many* BB, considers the leverage pullover machine not only superior to free weights but arguably the best single lat exercise.

Leg press had nothing to do with it; for most, it's a complement not a substitute to, squats.

Coleman prefers cable curls to free weights.

Martinez likes the Flex leverage flat and incline bench press as much as free weights. I've used those, they're excellent.

The list goes on..get used to this reality even if you yourself are still in the BB stone age..

If you believe that there better alternatives, I have to say that you're wrong,
levermachine tend to isolate the muscle to much, and that will alway's be a disadvantage. Even if you're using cable the small supporting muscles will not be trained.

Ass-backwards-it's their superiority in isolating the muscles that's desirable!

As far as stabilizer muscles, that's often more of a marketing ploy than a valid point-not having to enlist stabilizers is as much an advantage as disadvantage; there are pros and cons.

As far as cables, you're wrong there too they do in fact enlist stabilizers if this is a concern.

[pobrecito]

Dumbells will always be superior to a fixed machine. More muscle fibers will be stimulated.

However, machines do have their place because of the ability for forced reps, isolation of a certain bodypart, etc.

[pumpster]

Dumbells will always be superior to a fixed machine.

Nah; too simplistic. There are pros and cons either way.

[dontknowit]

The english is so bad it's barely readable. There are plenty of examples, you're just unaware of them. 

Yates used and liked the lever row so much that they named one of the models after him. It wasn't just because of injury, where did you get that? He used and still uses leverage row, pulldown and pullover machines amongst the machines he uses.

Yates preferred Smith squats to free weight because of the superior effect he felt they afforded him.

Yates, like *many* BB, considers the leverage pullover machine not only superior to free weights but arguably the best single lat exercise.

Leg press had nothing to do with it; for most, it's a complement not a substitute to, squats.

Coleman prefers cable curls to free weights.

Martinez likes the Flex leverage flat and incline bench press as much as free weights. I've used those, they're excellent.

The list goes on..get used to this reality even if you yourself are still in the BB stone age..


Ass-backwards-it's their superiority in isolating the muscles that's desirable!

As far as stabilizer muscles, that's often more of a marketing ploy than a valid point-not having to enlist stabilizers is as much an advantage as disadvantage; there are pros and cons.

As far as cables, you're wrong there too they do in fact enlist stabilizers if this is a concern.

I don't understand why you're using Dorian as an example.
A qoute from an interview;
http://www.seriousstrengthtraining.com/dorian_yates.htm

BDJ: How is your training today? I assume you're still working out?

DY: Yes, I'm still working out and pretty much on the same schedule. The intensity is a little bit lower, mainly due to my triceps injury. I have to be very careful because there's an imbalance between the left and right side. Consequently, I do tend to use more machines, and for my upper body especially. There's another advantage of machine training... allowing you to work around injuries without worrying about coordination and balance.

BDJ: Sergio Oliva has fairly bad arthritis throughout his entire body, necessitating the need for mostly machine training. He finds free weight training, and all the balancing that goes along with free weights, too aggravating to the joints.

DY: In an ideal world, and if I didn't have any injuries, I would use more free weights. I wouldn't want to train exclusively with machines, but that's not where I'm at right now. So, I just do what I can do and what I have to.