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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: 24KT on March 12, 2007, 08:01:11 PM
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Gen. Pace calls homosexuality immoral
1 minute ago
(http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070313/capt.89f4f1c5472e45bfb8736a2e7226b108.military_gays_nyol945.jpg?x=180&y=119&sig=xWZ_qt8sR.L9vN4mxZKzYg--)
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs
Gen. Peter Pace is shown at the
Pentagon in Washington DC AP Photo
WASHINGTON - The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said Monday he considers homosexuality to be immoral and the military should not condone it by allowing gay personnel to serve openly, the Chicago Tribune reported.
Marine Gen. Peter Pace likened homosexuality to adultery, which he said was also immoral, the newspaper reported on its Web site.
"I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way," Pace told the newspaper in a wide-ranging interview.
Pace, a native of Brooklyn, N.Y., and a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, said he based his views on his upbringing.
He said he supports the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell policy" in which gay men and women are allowed in the military as long as they keep their sexual orientation private. The policy, signed into law by President Clinton in 1994, prohibits commanders from asking about a person's sexual orientation.
"I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Pace said.
The newspaper said Pace did not address concerns raised by a 2005 government audit that showed some 10,000 troops, including more than 50 specialists in Arabic, have been discharged because of the policy.
With Democrats in charge of Congress, Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Mass., has introduced legislation to reverse the military's ban on openly serving homosexuals.
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Top general calls homosexuality 'immoral'
By Aamer Madhani
Tribune national correspondent
Published March 12, 2007, 8:46 PM CDT
Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Monday that he supports the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell" ban on gays serving in the military because homosexual acts "are immoral," akin to a member of the armed forces conducting an adulterous affair with the spouse of another service member.
Responding to a question about a Clinton-era policy that is coming under renewed scrutiny amid fears of future U.S. troop shortages, Pace said the Pentagon should not "condone" immoral behavior by allowing gay soldiers to serve openly. He said his views were based on his personal "upbringing," in which he was taught that certain types of conduct are immoral.
"I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts...," Pace said in a wide-ranging discussion with Tribune editors and reporters in Chicago. "I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is okay to be immoral in any way."
Pace said the military should not tolerate homosexual acts the way it does not tolerate military members who commit adultery with another service member's spouse, noting that that behavior is punished. The "don't ask, don't tell" policy caused an uproar in the military when signed into law by President Clinton. At the time, supporters of the policy inside and outside the military argued that it was essential for the cohesion of combat units, not a question of morality.
Under the policy, gays and lesbians may serve only if they keep their sexual orientation private and do not engage in homosexual acts. Their commanders may not ask about their orientation.
Charles Moskos, a military sociologist at Northwestern University who was instrumental in helping the Pentagon craft the "don't ask, don't tell" law, said it is unusual for a top commander to use morality as a justification for the policy. But he said he has repeatedly heard enlisted members use that reasoning when opposing gays in the military.
"With the enlisted, it's a question of cohesion, but morality is something they always bring up," said Moskos, who declined to comment specifically on Pace's remarks.
Addressing other military topics, Pace said that House Democrats' proposal to wind down the war could hamper President Bush's planned troop "surge" in Iraq by creating gaps in troop levels.
Turning to Afghanistan, Pace said that Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's policy of courting tribal leaders on the border with Afghanistan has not prevented cross-border incursions by Taliban and Al Qaeda operatives. Instead, he said, there has been an increase in attacks.
"It is proper for us to point out to President Musharraf that people are continuing to come across the border," Pace said.
The "don't ask, don't tell" policy, which gay-rights advocates and other critics condemn as discriminatory, has come into question once again as the Bush administration, the Pentagon and Congress grapple with a military that commanders say has been stretched too far by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
A 2005 government audit showed that some 10,000 troops have been discharged because of the policy. Among those discharged were more than 322 linguists, including 54 Arabic specialists, according to the Government Accountability Office report. The U.S. military, like the nation's foreign service and intelligence community, faces shortages of foreign-language specialists.
"The real question is: what is moral about discharging qualified linguists during a time of war simply for being gay or lesbian?" said Joe Solmonese, president of the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights advocacy group. "Our military needs the best qualified men and women who are willing to serve in the military, protect our freedoms and preserve our American values of equality."
About 23 percent of troops know for sure that someone in their unit is gay or lesbian, according to a Zogby International poll of troops who served in Iraq and Afghanistan that was published in December. About 55 percent of troops who know a gay peer said the presence of gays or lesbians in their unit was well known by others.
Last month, Rep. Martin Meehan (D-Mass.) revived the debate in Congress by introducing legislation to reverse the military's ban on openly serving homosexuals. Meehan's proposal has 106 sponsors, including six Republicans. Meehan and gay rights organizations have expressed hope that the policy can be reversed now that Democrats control the House and Senate.
The issue is also starting to percolate in the 2008 presidential campaign. Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.), a longtime foe of the policy her husband signed into law, has stated that it should repealed. Sen. Sam Brownback (R-Kan.), says a repeal would be ill-advised.
Retired Army Gen. John Shalikashvili, a former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, who once supported "don't ask, don't tell," recently reversed his position and wrote in a newspaper column that it was time to allow gays to serve. Shalikashvili cited projected shortages in the military for his change of heart on the issue.
Moskos, the military sociologist, said that perhaps it is a good time to revisit the issue because the current generation of military recruits has a more liberal view on gays than previous generations and the older command officers.
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On one hand, he's entitled to have an opinion. It just sucks that he's the military's spokesperson on the matter. In the same vein, everyone knows the policy. Why do people feel they should join to challenge the policy? why join an organization that says "we don't want gays and if you are gay don't tell us" and then make a big deal about it? Sometimes I feel gays live for drama.
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2 or 3 more generations and there will be people in positions like that who are more progressive and intelligent regarding matters like that.
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On one hand, he's entitled to have an opinion. It just sucks that he's the military's spokesperson on the matter. In the same vein, everyone knows the policy. Why do people feel they should join to challenge the policy? why join an organization that says "we don't want gays and if you are gay don't tell us" and then make a big deal about it? Sometimes I feel gays live for drama.
Probably for the same reason people of color fought to go to both University and Medical school,
...and then to practice medicine. I doubt they were simply looking for drama. ::)
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Sometimes I feel gays live for drama.
Are the MD guidos gay?? :o :o
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2 or 3 more generations and there will be people in positions like that who are more progressive and intelligent regarding matters like that.
ya, maybee they'll be smart enough to ship them to their own private island where they can spread aids, and watch designer guys all day..
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kh300,
If your back was against the wall, and you were about to die, unless you got assistance,
who would you rather have watching your back in a firefight?
A gay Arnold Schwarzenegger / Rambo type, ...or a straight PeeWee Herman?
For that matter, if an AlQ communiqué was intercepted that stated an imminent surprise attack was about to take place on your bunker within 24hrs, who would you rather have translating it, ...a gay person fluent in Arabic who could read it and understand it in realtime, or a straight person like me who doesn't speak a lick of Arabic, and would probably need a month just to translate the first sentence? ::)
It's policies like these that are going to keep holding your military back.
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ya, maybee they'll be smart enough to ship them to their own private island where they can spread aids, and watch designer guys all day..
That will never happen but what will happen is America's acceptance of something that's been around since the dawn of man will grow and grow until it's fully integrated into society and completely accepted.
but don't get discouraged KH.
I know how you feel.
I felt the same way when i was 23 years old and and a gay person hit on me. I wanted to belt him, in fact if he hadn't worked for me i would have. But the guy was making too many sales in our company! I felt the disgust, the fear, the anger.
But i found almost 20 years later they are just people who are trying to live a life and the aggressive gays are no different than a over bearing ass hole at a bar trying to hit on a woman. The only difference men can hit back lol. you might find this too as time passes by.
What's interesting to me: Being gay isn't even breaking the 10 commandments. And far more people do that more often then there are gay people in the world. But boy don't we have some self righteous sinners blasting them huh?
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But i found almost 20 years later they are just people who are trying to live a life and the aggressive gays are no different than a over bearing ass hole at a bar trying to hit on a woman. The only difference men can hit back lol. you might find this too as time passes by.
What's interesting to me: Being gay isn't even breaking the 10 commandments. And far more people do that more often then there are gay people in the world. But boy don't we have some self righteous sinners blasting them huh?
Personally, I have found overbearing assholes trying to hit on women are WORSE. Gays are usually mindful that not everyone shares their orientation, but there are some guys who just simply refuse to accept no for an answer, ...or worse, ...when they hear NO, they get violent and abusive.
Say NO to a gay person, ...and they accept it as no and walk away.
When a woman says NO to an overbearing dick, ...they get violent and or abusive.
Why do men behave like such foolish assholes sometimes? ???
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call me ignorant if you want but it sickens me. i grew up in manhattan so a gay person is nothing new to me. weather or not you choose to be gay -i dont know and i dont care. but 95% of gays choose a lifestyle that is far beyond what should be excepted.
during my years with the pd almost every domestic disturbance call was between a homosexual couple. and you dont even want to know about some of the calls we'd get to gay bars.. men do not belong with men -it doesnt work. how many homos do you know that have had a long and healthy relationship?
this is why its immoral, men physically and psychologically were not intended to fuck each other, or make an attempt to have a relationship. two men were not intended to raise a child. you need a mother and a father.
the spread of aids, drag queens, filthy gay bars -not a healthy lifestyle.
guess im not as 'hip' as you cool guys :-[
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Why do men behave like such foolish assholes sometimes? ???
men are assholes because woman are crazy,, woman are crazy because men are assholes
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men are assholes because woman are crazy,, woman are crazy because men are assholes
Maybe if there were more gay & lesbian relationships, we could skip much of the insanity altogether? ;)
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during my years with the pd almost every domestic disturbance call was between a homosexual couple. and you dont even want to know about some of the calls we'd get to gay bars.. men do not belong with men -it doesnt work.
Maybe the problem as you outline it, isn't with gays, ...but rather with men PERIOD!? ;)
how many homos do you know that have had a long and healthy relationship?
Ziegfried & Roy
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call me ignorant if you want but it sickens me. i grew up in manhattan so a gay person is nothing new to me. weather or not you choose to be gay -i dont know and i dont care. but 95% of gays choose a lifestyle that is far beyond what should be excepted.
during my years with the pd almost every domestic disturbance call was between a homosexual couple. and you dont even want to know about some of the calls we'd get to gay bars.. men do not belong with men -it doesnt work. how many homos do you know that have had a long and healthy relationship?
this is why its immoral, men physically and psychologically were not intended to fuck each other, or make an attempt to have a relationship. two men were not intended to raise a child. you need a mother and a father.
the spread of aids, drag queens, filthy gay bars -not a healthy lifestyle.
guess im not as 'hip' as you cool guys :-[
i hear ya, i grew up with a old gay couple a few doors down from my house. They had been together almost 50 years until one died about 10 years ago.
those things you talked about with gays whne you were a police officer, i never experienced. In fact i experienced the opposite except the rampant promiscuity. then again you were in NYC, i was in n. cali in the suburbs.
Although i don;t agree at all with your take in it, i can see why you might have the views you do.
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Probably for the same reason people of color fought to go to both University and Medical school,
...and then to practice medicine. I doubt they were simply looking for drama. ::)
I know you're Canadian but... gays aren't seperate race. Who knows what people are looking for? An education and the state redefining marriage aren't the same thing. We have a saying here: make sure you compare apples with apples.
But since this whole black/gay thing has came up again it begs for abuse, LOL! Everytime someone can't do something they compare themselves to black people. People only want to associate themselves with black issues when there's a struggle or some gain for them. Blacks were sitting on the back of buses for a long time before Rosa Parks and not too many people cared, LOL! The civil rights act did way more for white women in the long run than black people. Actually, a preftty strong argument can be made that white males ended up marginalized in the long run.
Where was I? Oh yes. When this started happening a few years ago, I kind of figured it was because people are stupid. Upon reflection, I figured it was a poor attempt at debating. people like to bootstrap an objectionable idea to one that any objection would be politically incorrect.
Now, after reading the same silly argument for the gazillionth time. On re-reflection, the answer's clear. Drum roll....... black men have a right gay white men don't have. :)
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Not a big story IMO. He is repeating what many people believe. In fact, it is difficult to accept Biblical teachings (like a substantial number of Americans do) and not conclude homosexuality is "immoral." Sounds like that's how he was raised.
Also, homosexual sex is still a crime in the military (unless they changed the UCMJ since I got out many moons ago).
I'd be much more concerned if he was the CEO of a company in a city or state where discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is prohibited. It's permissible in the military.
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Not a big story IMO. He is repeating what many people believe. In fact, it is difficult to accept Biblical teachings (like a substantial number of Americans do) and not conclude homosexuality is "immoral." Sounds like that's how he was raised.
Also, homosexual sex is still a crime in the military (unless they changed the UCMJ since I got out many moons ago).
I'd be much more concerned if he was the CEO of a company in a city or state where discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is prohibited. It's permissible in the military.
I find it completely hilarious that an army Gen. who recruits and commands thousands of men to go out and KILL thousands of other men, has the audacity to talk about morals. HELLO?? Do we not see the disconnect here?
...especially when you talk about Biblically based morality. If i recall one of those biblical commandments is:
Thou shall not KILL ::)
But then again... cherry picking isn't a new thing at the Pentagon. same 'ol same 'ol. ::)
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Maybe the problem as you outline it, isn't with gays, ...but rather with men PERIOD!? ;)
Ziegfried & Roy
i never believed that there was ever such thing as a 'soul mate' or relationships that are 'meant to be' -until i saw them.. one gay lion tamer hooking up with another gay lion tamer? what are the chances?
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I find it completely hilarious that an army Gen. who recruits and commands thousands of men to go out and KILL thousands of other men, has the audacity to talk about morals. HELLO?? Do we not see the disconnect here?
...especially when you talk about Biblically based morality. If i recall one of those biblical commandments is:
Thou shall not KILL ::)
But then again... cherry picking isn't a new thing at the Pentagon. same 'ol same 'ol. ::)
Judi,
Those are late term abortions. :)
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Thou shall not KILL ::)
thats from exodus. the bible says taking of a life does'nt always mean murder. its better understood as thou shall not murder
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I find it completely hilarious that an army Gen. who recruits and commands thousands of men to go out and KILL thousands of other men, has the audacity to talk about morals. HELLO?? Do we not see the disconnect here?
...especially when you talk about Biblically based morality. If i recall one of those biblical commandments is:
Thou shall not KILL ::)
But then again... cherry picking isn't a new thing at the Pentagon. same 'ol same 'ol. ::)
The fact is homosexual sex is a crime in the military.
And the commandment is do not murder.
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The fact is homosexual sex is a crime in the military.
And the commandment is do not murder.
What a brilliant system you have. In a time of war, when you're doing sooo well, ...
...you'd kick out strong, competent, able-bodied, skilled personnel who want to serve their country,
...and replace them with wounded & injured personnel, unfit to fight, ...because they're straight. HA!
Brilliant! ...no wonder you're winning so handsomely. I'll bet it's gonna be one heckuva victory parade!
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Judi,
Those are late term abortions. :)
Don't try and inject logic into this. You'll just confuse people. :)
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thats from exodus. the bible says taking of a life does'nt always mean murder. its better understood as thou shall not murder
Hey I just said that . . . . :)
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I find it completely hilarious that an army Gen. who recruits and commands thousands of men to go out and KILL thousands of other men, has the audacity to talk about morals. HELLO?? Do we not see the disconnect here?
...especially when you talk about Biblically based morality. If i recall one of those biblical commandments is:
Thou shall not KILL ::)
But then again... cherry picking isn't a new thing at the Pentagon. same 'ol same 'ol. ::)
Actually god allows killing in certain situaitons and even commanded people himself to do so. But yes Beach, sodomy is illegal under the UCMJ much like adultery.
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What a brilliant system you have. In a time of war, when you're doing sooo well, ...
...you'd kick out strong, competent, able-bodied, skilled personnel who want to serve their country,
...and replace them with wounded & injured personnel, unfit to fight, ...because they're straight. HA!
Brilliant! ...no wonder you're winning so handsomely. I'll bet it's gonna be one heckuva victory parade!
And your ignorant ass ignores the fact that these people had to have outed themselves as a gay in order to be kicked out. In the military, I can't go into my Commanders office and say I think Sgt Smith is gay. I could say that, but the CC couldn't call smith in and ask if he was. So if someone got kicked out, they had to have walked into the office and said "I am gay". Your ignorant ass also doesn't realize that one of the quickest ways to get out of serving in combat is to claim homosexuality. So it isn't that the US military is "kicking out highly qualified individuals". These people want out, so they declare they are gay.
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MM is wronmg about the quickest way deal..I thought so to uintil i had oner of my guys try that crap over in Afghanistan. We found out that while he would be getting out normally after ther deployment...because of all the gay rights advocacy crap, he could end up being extended between 6 months to 2 years because of all the case reviews and various boards he would go before. Also depending on if they deteremined he wasn't gay, he could get in a ton of trouble. We told him all this and he decided he wouldn't be gay until he got discharged.
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me wonders if the 'big deal' being made has anything to do with pace's recent admission that Iran's govt wasn't necessarily behind attacks in Iraq.
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"I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way..."
It's good to hear a 4-star general speak out against the President's oil war in Iraq.
Good for him!
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That will never happen but what will happen is America's acceptance of something that's been around since the dawn of man will grow and grow until it's fully integrated into society and completely accepted.
Once people accept that Jesus was gay, it'll be all good.
Think about it, you're the son of god for christ's sake, and you spend all your time running around the desert with a bunch of robe-wearing homos? A straight man would've been busy getting as much booty as possible.
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Pace Expresses Regret Over Gay Remark
By PAULINE JELINEK
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon's top general expressed regret Tuesday that he called homosexuality immoral, a remark that drew a harsh condemnation from members of Congress and gay advocacy groups.
In a newspaper interview Monday, Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, had likened homosexual acts to adultery and said the military should not condone it by allowing gays to serve openly in the armed forces.
In a statement Tuesday, he said he should have focused more in the interview on the Defense Department policy about gays -- and "less on my personal moral views."
He did not offer an apology, something that had been demanded by gay rights groups.
"General Pace's comments are outrageous, insensitive and disrespectful to the 65,000 lesbian and gay troops now serving in our armed forces," the advocacy group Servicemembers Legal Defense Network said in a statement on its Web site.
The group, which has represented some of the thousands dismissed from the military for their sexual orientation, demanded an apology.
Pace's senior staff members said earlier that the general was expressing his personal opinion and did not intend to apologize. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not allowed to speak on the record.
Rep. Martin Meehan, who has introduced legislation to repeal the current policy, criticized Pace's comments.
"General Pace's statements aren't in line with either the majority of the public or the military," said the Massachusetts Democrat. "He needs to recognize that support for overturning (the policy) is strong and growing" and that the military is "turning away good troops to enforce a costly policy of discrimination."
In an interview Monday with the Chicago Tribune, Pace was asked about the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that allows gays and lesbians to serve if they keep their sexual orientation private and don't engage in homosexual acts.
Pace said he supports the policy, which became law in 1994 and prohibits commanders from asking about a person's sexual orientation.
"I believe that homosexual acts between individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Pace said in the audio recording of the interview posted on the Tribune's Web site. "I do not believe that the armed forces of the United States are well served by a saying through our policies that it's OK to be immoral in any way."
Pace, a native of Brooklyn, N.Y., and a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, said he based his views on his upbringing.
"As an individual, I would not want (acceptance of gay behavior) to be our policy, just like I would not want it to be our policy that if we were to find out that so-and-so was sleeping with somebody else's wife, that we would just look the other way, which we do not. We prosecute that kind of immoral behavior," he said, according to the audio and a transcript released by his staff.
The newspaper said Pace did not address concerns raised by a 2005 government audit that showed some 10,000 troops, including more than 50 specialists in Arabic, have been discharged because of the policy.
Louis Vizcaino, spokesman for the gay rights group Human Rights Campaign, said Pace's comments were "insulting and offensive to the men and women ... who are serving in the military honorably."
"Right now there are men and women that are in the battle lines, that are in the trenches, they're serving their country," Vizcaino said. "Their sexual orientation has nothing to do with their capability to serve in the U.S. military."
"Don't ask, don't tell" was passed by Congress in 1993 after a firestorm of debate in which advocates argued that allowing homosexuals to serve openly would hurt troop morale and recruitment and undermine the cohesion of combat units.
John Shalikashvili, the retired Army general who was Joint Chiefs chairman when the policy was adopted, said in January that he has changed his mind on the issue since meeting with gay servicemen.
"These conversations showed me just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers," Shalikashvili wrote in a newspaper opinion piece.
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this only goes to show you that many of these people live in their own little world surrounded by "yes" men where every one tries to kiss their ass and they have NO idea what the real world is all about ........... so they make stupid statements and then have to back peddle after they make a mistake HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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Dick Cheney's daughter is immoral. I love it. ;D
These “leaders” are a joke... their credibility is undone by their own bigotry. I bet the General has gay kid. :-[
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Dick Cheney's daughter is immoral. I love it. ;D
These “leaders” are a joke... their credibility is undone by their own bigotry. I bet the General has gay kid. :-[
and he's probably cheating on his wife. :o
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call me ignorant if you want but it sickens me. i grew up in manhattan so a gay person is nothing new to me. weather or not you choose to be gay -i dont know and i dont care. but 95% of gays choose a lifestyle that is far beyond what should be excepted.
during my years with the pd almost every domestic disturbance call was between a homosexual couple. and you dont even want to know about some of the calls we'd get to gay bars.. men do not belong with men -it doesnt work. how many homos do you know that have had a long and healthy relationship?
this is why its immoral, men physically and psychologically were not intended to fuck each other, or make an attempt to have a relationship. two men were not intended to raise a child. you need a mother and a father.
the spread of aids, drag queens, filthy gay bars -not a healthy lifestyle.
guess im not as 'hip' as you cool guys :-[
Hate to clue you in, but the majority of ancient societies had rampant homosexuality in them. So chances are that your ancestor was a penis puffing douche bag.
I think I've matured to the point where I couldn't care less if someone is gay or not. As long as they don't bother me, I don't care. And frankly, if they're qualified to defend our country and are willing to put their life on the line in Iraq, then they should be allowed to, regardless of sexual preference.
But I still can't see how you can not love the sweet taste and feel of pussy!!! :-\
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These “leaders” are a joke... their credibility is undone by their own bigotry. I bet the General has gay kid. :-[
LOL - You're 100% correct.
And even if the kid isn't totally gay, you know he's had a homosexual encounter at some point in his life. :)
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<< 65,000 are estimates of how many gay and lesbians are serving in the military right now. And General Pace... recently shared his beliefs that homosexuality... should not be tolerated in the military... Fine, then let us out, send us home. And, if you are gay, you should refuse, yes, refuse to go in to the military until it accepts you openly. How little self esteem do you have, anyway? And don't give me all this working within the system bullshit, where has that gotten you so far? "Don't ask,don't tell..." Ya, that's progress. Do your partners get benefits if you die? Nope, not officially. Can you even go down on the "family" area and greet them when they return from battle? Not in many instances. So leave, and don't join...
We are not a mistake, we are not immoral, we are not second class citizens and we are not going away.... We are Americans, and to call us anything less is immoral. We are citizens, and to treat us any differently is immoral. We are friends and neighbors and deny it any longer is immoral. We are family, and it refuse it and try and stop us from forming our own is immoral. >>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-karel-bouley/who-exactly-are-you-cal_b_43321.html
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and he's probably cheating on his wife. :o
With a male escort! ::)
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As said before, open homosexuality would hinder a military unit from functioning at it's best. The same goes for allowing women to pose in Playboy, it doesn't work. All you fools that haven't been in the military have no clue and those of you that have but think it doesn't make a difference have less of a clue. Gays need to stop trying to be accepted as normal. They aren't, period. Call me a biggot I don't give a shit. Science is on my side on this one. If you were meant to be gay you would be able to procreate. you can't, quit bitching.
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Call me a biggot I don't give a shit.
OK. You're a bigot. :)
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OK. You're a bigot. :)
Fine with me, I'm in the MAJORITY
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Fine with me, I'm in the MAJORITY
Bigots usually are. :)
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As said before, open homosexuality would hinder a military unit from functioning at it's best. The same goes for allowing women to pose in Playboy, it doesn't work. All you fools that haven't been in the military have no clue and those of you that have but think it doesn't make a difference have less of a clue. Gays need to stop trying to be accepted as normal. They aren't, period. Call me a biggot I don't give a shit. Science is on my side on this one. If you were meant to be gay you would be able to procreate. you can't, quit bitching.
Unfortunately, anyone who disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle is called a bigot (at least by some).
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Unfortunately, anyone who disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle is called a bigot (at least by some).
Isn't a Bigot a Racist?
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Bigots usually are. :)
Yeah..that makes no sense on your part
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Isn't a Bigot a Racist?
Depends on who you ask. I've been called a "bigot" for disagreeing with the homosexual lifestyle. IMO, it is an attempt to silence any opposition to this lifestyle choice. It has been very successful.
I think both Bay and Ribo have used the term "bigot" to refer to people with anti-homosexual views?
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A bigot is anyone that disagrees with your point of view, LOL! Homophobe stopped working so they've graduated to bigot. Can Nazi be far behind?
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I think both Bay and Ribo have used the term "bigot" to refer to people with anti-homosexual views?
big·ot - NOUN: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/24/B0242400.html
Sorry, guys. If the white hood fits... :)
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Actually god allows killing in certain situaitons and even commanded people himself to do so. But yes Beach, sodomy is illegal under the UCMJ much like adultery.
God himself was a mass murderer, that sonofabitch! >:(
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As said before, open homosexuality would hinder a military unit from functioning at it's best.
That's because most people in the military are idiots.
It's like jury duty.
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Fine with me, I'm in the MAJORITY
In the military, yes...most military personnel are bigots and dummies, this is true.
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Unfortunately, anyone who disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle is called a bigot (at least by some).
No, not really.
The problem is too many people thinking that what other consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is somehow their business as well. Not liking something is fine, but actively discriminating against another individual because of who they fall in love with is just ridiculous. Naturally, the exceptions are pedophiles and necrophiliacs.
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big·ot - NOUN: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/24/B0242400.html
Sorry, guys. If the white hood fits... :)
I'm a religious bigot.
God kills, fags don't.
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No, not really.
The problem is too many people thinking that what other consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is somehow their business as well. Not liking something is fine, but actively discriminating against another individual because of who they fall in love with is just ridiculous. Naturally, the exceptions are pedophiles and necrophiliacs.
Tre I think the problem is we're not just talking about what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms. It's about people using the government to force others to accept what they do in the privacy of their bedrooms and using the government to legitimize that behavior.
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big·ot - NOUN: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/24/B0242400.html
Sorry, guys. If the white hood fits... :)
So you must be a bigot, because you are "strongly partial" to your "own . . . politics" and you're "intolerant of those who differ" with your politics?
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So you must be a bigot, because you are "strongly partial" to your "own . . . politics" and you're "intolerant of those who differ" with your politics?
I fit the definition, all right.
The difference is: I don't go around saying that Republicans aren't entitled to get married. :)
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It's interesting, Britain and France have an open policy in their military regarding gays.
Am i right or wrong?
actually here's a list of countries that do:
* Argentina[1]
* Australia
* Austria
* The Bahamas
* Belgium
* Bulgaria[2]
* Canada
* Colombia
* Croatia[2]
* Czech Republic
* Denmark
* Estonia [3]
* Finland
* France
* Germany
* Hungary
* Ireland
* Israel
* Italy[2]
* Lithuania
* Luxembourg
* The Netherlands
* New Zealand
* Norway
* Peru
* Poland
* Portugal[2]
* Romania[4]
* Slovenia
* South Africa
* Spain
* Sweden
* Switzerland
* Taiwan
* Thailand
* United Kingdom
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Yeah, Britain's moral in their military is sooo low lol
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Yeah, Britain's moral in their military is sooo low lol
My sympathies in this debate are on record. But I don't think Britain is a good example...
Thanks to their rancid tradition of single-sex schooling, most British men enter adult life half-gay to begin with.
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My sympathies in this debate are on record. But I don't think Britain is a good example...
Thanks to their rancid tradition of single-sex schooling, most British men enter adult life half-gay to begin with.
So you are saying they are schooled to be gay? ;D
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So you are saying they are schooled to be gay? ;D
I'm sure they don't think of it that way... but yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
EDIT: Before BeachBum tries an "a-ha!" here, let me be more precise...
They are schooled to be homoerotic. All gay men are genetically homoerotic. Not all homoerotic men are genetically gay.
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I'm sure they don't think of it that way... but yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
EDIT: Before BeachBum tries an "a-ha!" here, let me be more precise...
They are schooled to be homoerotic. All gay men are genetically homoerotic. Not all homoerotic men are genetically gay.
Dude . . . you stole my thunder . . . .
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I'm sure they don't think of it that way... but yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
EDIT: Before BeachBum tries an "a-ha!" here, let me be more precise...
They are schooled to be homoerotic. All gay men are genetically homoerotic. Not all homoerotic men are genetically gay.
who's in your avatar? Is that from Brotherhood?
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and he's probably cheating on his wife. :o
With a male escort! ::)
Bah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Doom is amused.
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its your right if your willing be accepted of certain behavior,
but ask yourself this: is a child at a disadvantage if they grew up in a homosexual house.. no mother-no nurturer- just 2 dudes.
would you be the same if you had 2 parents of the same sex?
would you allow a homosexual babysitter help raise your kid?
what people do in their house is their business, and thats there right.. but when it goes on in the street for kids and the rest of the public to see- it becomes a problem. and i dont know to many 'quiet' gays.. the ones i see love to celebrate their outlandish lifestyle. and most people accept this behavior, because its the cool thing to do now because we dont want to offend anyone.
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who's in your avatar? Is that from Brotherhood?
It's Robert DeNiro in the role of Sam "Ace" Rothstein [based on the real-life Frank "Lefty" Rosenthal] in the Martin Scorsese film Casino.
A fellow Jew... who always knew the inside dope. My kind of guy. :)
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It's Robert DeNiro in the role of Sam "Ace" Rothstein [based on the real-life Frank "Lefty" Rosenthal] in the Martin Scorsese film Casino.
A fellow Jew... who always knew the inside dope. My kind of guy. :)
ah . . . I figured it was either De Niro or the guy who plays Michael Caffee on the Brotherhood.
http://www.sho.com/site/brotherhood/characters.do
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jason isaacs strike you as a jewish name?
Edit: just looked it up, he is jewish.
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It's interesting, Britain and France have an open policy in their military regarding gays.
Am i right or wrong?
actually here's a list of countries that do:
* Argentina[1]
* Australia
* Austria
* The Bahamas
* Belgium
* Bulgaria[2]
* Canada
* Colombia
* Croatia[2]
* Czech Republic
* Denmark
* Estonia [3]
* Finland
* France
* Germany
* Hungary
* Ireland
* Israel
* Italy[2]
* Lithuania
* Luxembourg
* The Netherlands
* New Zealand
* Norway
* Peru
* Poland
* Portugal[2]
* Romania[4]
* Slovenia
* South Africa
* Spain
* Sweden
* Switzerland
* Taiwan
* Thailand
* United Kingdom
Good job, you have just shown that all the militaries in the world that are less superior than ours allows gays. Must be a correlation between effectiveness and allowing gays.
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but ask yourself this: is a child at a disadvantage if they grew up in a homosexual house.. no mother-no nurturer- just 2 dudes.
i'm not crazy about the idea. i find 2 dudes holding hands in a park to make my stomach hurt a little.
But if they're a good couple and the kid will grow up well, why the hell not? there are so many people neglecting/beating their kids out there. If two dudes will give the kid a shot at life, why the hell not?
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good article and kudos to the General for standing up for his right to have an opinion. the media totally ignores the fact that Gen. Pace said that homosexuality is no less immoral than a husband or wife being unfaithful.
Gen. Pace “firestorm” just the latest Media Nontroversy
by Glib Fortuna @ 10:26 am.
Filed under 1st Amendment, Homosexual Agenda, News
Water is wet, ice is cold, adultery and sex acts between two people of the same sex are widely considered immoral. This newest “outrage” was reported with all the dutiful breathlessness we’ve come to expect from the CNNs and MSNBCs of the world when a favored group gets “offended.” But let’s be honest. This isn’t a story.
First off, Gen Pace didn’t call “homosexuality” immoral any more than he called “adulterality” immoral. He was very specific in saying that the acts are immoral. Observe:
“I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts,” Pace was quoted as saying in the newspaper interview. “I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way.”
Apparently, one is not even permitted to express opinions held by the majority of Americans today, an even larger majority of active duty military and nearly every society in the history of mankind. What’s more, Gen. Pace’s positions on adultery and and homosexual conduct are covered in the Uniform Code of Military Justice as punishable offenses for the precise reason Gen. Pace names. Nonetheless, you’d think he’d pulled a Hardaway.
Associating homosexual acts and adultery is perfectly rational. He may have added fraternization and other intra-unit sexual relationships to complete the list. All of these acts are forbidden or at least seriously frowned upon because immoralityof this sort is a quick-spreading morale extinguisher. As a matter of fact, even an UNMARRIED Marine may be charged with adultery if he fools around with a woman who is married. Reason being, of course, that it seems that most adultery in the armed forces occurs between active duty troops and the spouses of other troops (I’m trying to think of one case in my 10 years as a Marine that this wasn’t the case). Gee, that can’t break up a unit can it? Adultery carries a maximum penalty of dishonorable discharge (the equivalent of having a felony conviction on your record), forfeiture of all pay and benefits and confinement for one year. Advancing immoral conduct that causes a “measurably divisive effect on unit or organization discipline, morale, or cohesion, or is clearly detrimental to the authority or stature of or respect toward a servicemember” is untenable for a military unit. A known homosexual relationship in a unit would have a similar impact. So do supervisor-subordinate relationships.
Should we lift all of these restrictions because a certain pampered, wealthy, ultrasensitive, disproportionately powerful political movement gets its feelings hurt when someone calls certain behavior immoral? Of course not. Reasonable restrictions on sexual behavior in the armed forces are wise and rational. This has never been controversial until now. That pointing out one of the main reasons for the policy has been met with all the faux indignation that defines our modern-day cultural inquisitors demonstrates the utter lack of tolerance for any ideas that offend the extreme Leftist sensibilities of dominant media voices.
Perhaps Gen. Pace should pull a Max Cleland: “Which of you reporters served in Vietnam? If you haven’t served in Vietnam, you can’t criticize me or tell me how to fight a war or tell me how to think about military policy.” If it works for the Left…
Gen. Pace has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
Update: More damning evidence that universities, and “J-schools” in particular, do not produce many graduates endowed with critical thinking ability. See this article about the condemnation of Gen. Pace’s remarks by microphone-addicted Sen. John Warner.
Military experts, however, say morality was never the basis of the policy, which says gays may serve in the military only if they keep their sexual orientations private and don’t engage in homosexual activity.
“Morality was never the basis of the policy,” said retired Gen. Jack Keane. “It was about unit cohesion.”
The ever-present “expert” who rarely fails to confirm a mush-headed journalist’s worldview. Yes, unit cohesion resulting from good order and discipline is the intended result of restraints on sexual condcut in the armed forces. But what basis, other than a moral judgment about certain behavior, could be used in deciding what sexual conduct would or would not detract from the ideal vision of unit cohesion? There is no other basis. Of course these policies are based on “morality.”
Update: It’s a shame that Gen. Pace is being forced to tap dance.
“I made two points in support of the policy during the interview. One, “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” allows individuals to serve this nation; and two, it does not make a judgment about the morality of individual acts.
It sure does, sir, it sure does. It’s shame that, as a nation, we are no longer to tell the truth about why things are the way they are. It’s even worse that a person’s convictions, if they conflict with the prevailing PC orthodoxy, may not be uttered publicly without fear of pound-of-flesh retribution. This just shows that you need not say things like “I hate gay people,” or refer to a presidential candidate as the “New F-Word” to provoke the seething wrath of the radical homosexual movement and their bidding-doers in the media. All you need to do is disagree with the uncritical promotion and the rock-n-roll-all-night celebration of aberrant sexual behavior.
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good article and kudos to the General for standing up for his right to have an opinion. the media totally ignores the fact that Gen. Pace said that homosexuality is no less immoral than a husband or wife being unfaithful.
If the one spouse has sexually abandoned the other, and the abandoned party seeks sex outside of the marriage, that is NOT being unfaithful.
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Good job, you have just shown that all the militaries in the world that are less superior than ours allows gays. Must be a correlation between effectiveness and allowing gays.
Are you really believing that's the reason?
seriously?
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Are you really believing that's the reason?
seriously?
We are the best military in the world because we hold our service members to the highest moral standards.
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I bet all those young gay men and women serving in Iraq under "Don't ask, don't tell" are feeling really good about General Pace right now...
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I bet all those young gay men and women serving in Iraq under "Don't ask, don't tell" are feeling really good about General Pace right now...
Who cares how they feel? They knew when they joined the military how everyone felt about them and that they wouldn't be able to be open about it. Why is the General, who represents 99% of the military the one who is wrong? You political correct libs will ruin this country.
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We are the best military in the world because we hold our service members to the highest moral standards.
Ok, thanks for the Laugh Factory audition piece. ::)
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You political correct libs will ruin this country.
They can't.
You militaridiots already have.
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Ok, thanks for the Laugh Factory audition piece. ::)
Tre, you are an idiot, but you are welcome. I gladly defend your freedom to be a jackass.
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Who cares how they feel? They knew when they joined the military how everyone felt about them and that they wouldn't be able to be open about it. Why is the General, who represents 99% of the military the one who is wrong? You political correct libs will ruin this country.
I am no "politically correct lib"... I'm a red-state (Ohio) kid who thinks Ronald Reagan is the greatest president of the twentieth century... Now that that's out of the way, I will address the rest of your point.
1. Since when are army personnel allowed to express personal opinion like that? I thought civilians were entitled to opinion, and military officials were supposed to shut up and execute orders from their civilian overlords.
2. What if the guys in some unit were racists and didn't want any negroes among them. Would you blame the black guy for joining the army, because "They knew when they joined the military how everyone felt about them"?
3. I am sure we have heroes out there in Iraq and Afghanistan, young men and women bravely serving this country, risking life and limb, who just happen to be gay. They didn't need this punch in the face from Pace. He just came out of nowhere giving out his personal opinion, for no good reason at all.
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What if a male homosexual wants to wear a dress in the military?
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What if a male homosexual wants to wear a dress in the military?
Well, what do you think England does? they have strict regulations.
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We are the best military in the world because we hold our service members to the highest moral standards.
Now you are talking out your ass.
We are the best because we are the best trained and equipped professional army in the world.
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Who cares how they feel? They knew when they joined the military how everyone felt about them and that they wouldn't be able to be open about it. Why is the General, who represents 99% of the military the one who is wrong? You political correct libs will ruin this country.
Instead of "libs" could you use the term "commie pinko" please? I find the latter much funnier.
Thanks.
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Well, what do you think England does? they have strict regulations.
england shouldn't count . . . their public school system has made them have a rather unique view on the subject.
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england shouldn't count . . . their public school system has made them have a rather unique view on the subject.
Israel, France too? Who cares what the system is? Point is it works,
Don;t get me wrong, i'm not suggesting we change the military immediately i'm just making the point that the argument against gays in te military because it would have adverse affects in combat or otherwise is false based on the list of other countries doing it.
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Israel, France too? Who cares what the system is? Point is it works,
Don;t get me wrong, i'm not suggesting we change the military immediately i'm just making the point that the argument against gays in te military because it would have adverse affects in combat or otherwise is false based on the list of other countries doing it.
I don't know about the French, but I know that i would rather be openly gay in our army than in the Israeli army.
It's not false . . . until the men could trust each other, it would have an adverse impact on discipline. you can't legislate trust.
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I don't know about the French, but I know that i would rather be openly gay in our army than in the Israeli army.
It's not false . . . until the men could trust each other, it would have an adverse impact on discipline. you can't legislate trust.
I don;t disagree, this just shows us how far we are behind when it comes to understanding homosexuals as we are quick to put major false stereo types and labels on them. So for America, as advanced as we are in some areas, we are still in the cave man age in others.
But the functioning of these millitaries proves it is false.
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What if the guys in some unit were racists and didn't want any negroes among them. Would you blame the black guy for joining the army, because "They knew when they joined the military how everyone felt about them"?
Why yes, I believe he would. :)
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I don;t disagree, this just shows us how far we are behind when it comes to understanding homosexuals as we are quick to put major false stereo types and labels on them. So for America, as advanced as we are in some areas, we are still in the cave man age in others.
But the functioning of these millitaries proves it is false.
you don't have to (nor can you) base your argmt on the functioning of their militaries, as there is no evidence provided in this thread that the policies are working (or not working).
If you're saying we need to change our attitudes toward homosexuals, i agree with you.
it's possible to find a less delicate place to begin integration . . . like in sports leagues perhaps?
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What about the Sacred Band of Thebes? The ancient Greeks apparently thought there was nothing wrong with homosexuality in the military.
And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger? [2]
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What about the Sacred Band of Thebes? The ancient Greeks apparently thought there was nothing wrong with homosexuality in the military.
And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger? [2]
I believe that most of our boys and girls hail from the Midwest and the South, not Ancient Greece. :P
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What about the Sacred Band of Thebes? The ancient Greeks apparently thought there was nothing wrong with homosexuality in the military.
And if there were only some way of contriving that a state or an army should be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city, abstaining from all dishonour, and emulating one another in honour; and when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the world. For what lover would not choose rather to be seen by all mankind than by his beloved, either when abandoning his post or throwing away his arms? He would be ready to die a thousand deaths rather than endure this. Or who would desert his beloved or fail him in the hour of danger? [2]
Did you already know about the Sacred Band of Thebes or did you do a little research on homosexuality and the military? Either way very interesting, I'm not sure it really applies to modern day soldiers and military brass but interesting all the same.
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I don;t disagree, this just shows us how far we are behind when it comes to understanding homosexuals as we are quick to put major false stereo types and labels on them. So for America, as advanced as we are in some areas, we are still in the cave man age in others.
But the functioning of these millitaries proves it is false.
It does not, those militaries can't hold a candle to ours and we are the way we are because of our moral standards. Period. You have high morals in the military, follow orders and execute the mission.
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It does not, those militaries can't hold a candle to ours and we are the way we are because of our moral standards.
"Two other soldiers were laughing and kicking the heads of the decapitated Iraqis. It was clearly a moment of amusement for them. This was their twisted game of soccer."
The Deserter's Tale: The Story of a Ordinary Soldier Who Walked Away from the War in Iraq, by Joshua Key - p. 105
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It does not, those militaries can't hold a candle to ours and we are the way we are because of our moral standards. Period. You have high morals in the military, follow orders and execute the mission.
What about this then?
The private war of women soldiers
Many female soldiers say they are sexually assaulted by their male comrades and can't trust the military to protect them. "The knife wasn't for the Iraqis," says one woman. "It was for the guys on my own side."
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/07/women_in_military/
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It does not, those militaries can't hold a candle to ours and we are the way we are because of our moral standards. Period. You have high morals in the military, follow orders and execute the mission.
Being Gay or not has nothing to do with following orders.
Training and character do.
A person's character in regards to following orders has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
The US Military is the best trained and equipped military in the planet right now.
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What about this then?
The private war of women soldiers
Many female soldiers say they are sexually assaulted by their male comrades and can't trust the military to protect them. "The knife wasn't for the Iraqis," says one woman. "It was for the guys on my own side."
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/07/women_in_military/
Exactly Dedee, like all the other skim readers in here you have obviously missed the 100 times I also said that the female posing in Playboy does as much harm to the mission effectiveness as open gays would. Women are already in the minority and risk being molested when they are deployed with 1,000 men for 12 months. You pose in playboy you just made yourself a target for harrasment, as sad as that might be.
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Being Gay or not has nothing to do with following orders.
Training and character do.
A person's character in regards to following orders has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
The US Military is the best trained and equipped military in the planet right now.
see my new post please in 15 minutes
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Gen. Pace calls homosexuality immoral
1 minute ago
(http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070313/capt.89f4f1c5472e45bfb8736a2e7226b108.military_gays_nyol945.jpg?x=180&y=119&sig=xWZ_qt8sR.L9vN4mxZKzYg--)
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs
Gen. Peter Pace is shown at the
Pentagon in Washington DC AP Photo
WASHINGTON - The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said Monday he considers homosexuality to be immoral and the military should not condone it by allowing gay personnel to serve openly, the Chicago Tribune reported.
Marine Gen. Peter Pace likened homosexuality to adultery, which he said was also immoral, the newspaper reported on its Web site.
"I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way," Pace told the newspaper in a wide-ranging interview.
Pace, a native of Brooklyn, N.Y., and a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, said he based his views on his upbringing.
He said he supports the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell policy" in which gay men and women are allowed in the military as long as they keep their sexual orientation private. The policy, signed into law by President Clinton in 1994, prohibits commanders from asking about a person's sexual orientation.
"I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Pace said.
The newspaper said Pace did not address concerns raised by a 2005 government audit that showed some 10,000 troops, including more than 50 specialists in Arabic, have been discharged because of the policy.
With Democrats in charge of Congress, Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Mass., has introduced legislation to reverse the military's ban on openly serving homosexuals.
It is immoral..........it's an exit, not an entrance!
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Well, what do you think England does? they have strict regulations.
I have no idea what England does. I'm asking about what we should do if a male homosexual wants to wear a dress in our military? These are the kinds of issues I don't hear anyone talking about.
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I have no idea what England does. I'm asking about what we should do if a male homosexual wants to wear a dress in our military? These are the kinds of issues I don't hear anyone talking about.
i just told you. Strict regulations.
Plus, you may be confusing transvestites with ALL gays.
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I think the don't tell policy is good for now. Women might be more accepting of fighting alongside lesbians, but I doubt most men will be comfortable fighting alongside gays. I think 20 years from now we'll all be more open minded and only then will homosexuals be able to serve openly.
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i just told you. Strict regulations.
Plus, you may be confusing transvestites with ALL gays.
What regulations? Would we tell a man he cannot dress like a woman, if he actually considers himself a woman? Are you saying these "strict regulations" would restrict a homosexual man from expressing his gender identity?
I'm not saying all transvestites are homosexual, but when dealing with the issue of homosexuality, you have to address all facets of the group of people included under the homosexual rights agenda: homosexual men, lesbians, bisexuals, transvestites, transsexuals (pre-op and post-op), cross-dressers, etc.
This is a complicated issue Ozmo.
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What regulations? Would we tell a man he cannot dress like a woman, if he actually considers himself a woman? Are you saying these "strict regulations" would restrict a homosexual man from expressing his gender identity?
I'm not saying all transvestites are homosexual, but when dealing with the issue of homosexuality, you have to address all facets of the group of people included under the homosexual rights agenda: homosexual men, lesbians, bisexuals, transvestites, transsexuals (pre-op and post-op), cross-dressers, etc.
This is a complicated issue Ozmo.
i agree it's complicated.
Strict military dress for genders based on physical gonads. It's already in place.
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i agree it's complicated.
Strict military dress for genders based on physical gonads. It's already in place.
What about a pre-op transsexual? Or a transsexual who is halfway through his or her operation? Where do they sleep? Who do they shower with?
This is giving me a headache . . . .
:)
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i agree it's complicated.
Strict military dress for genders based on physical gonads. It's already in place.
The Air Force had to change it's dress and apperance policy last year to mandate MINIMUM hair length standards for women. Under the old reg. women could shave their heads or have high and tights etc... women with short hair were being mistaken for men, and then filing MEO complaints because of it. Now women have to have a minimum of 1 inch in length.
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What about a pre-op transsexual? Or a transsexual who is halfway through his or her operation? Where do they sleep? Who do they shower with?
This is giving me a headache . . . .
:)
Well then stop thinking about transsexuals who are halfway through there operation so much!
;D
We can discuss pre-op transsexuals int he military later..... when England decides to allow it!
Maybe we should just kick the confused bastards out? j/k
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Well then stop thinking about transsexuals who are halfway through there operation so much!
;D
We can discuss pre-op transsexuals int he military later..... when England decides to allow it!
Maybe we should just kick the confused bastards out? j/k
;D
We will have to deal with the confusing aspects of this issue sooner or later, if we decide to open the door further in the military.
This affects private business too (see my thread on How We Define Gender In Hawaii).
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Did you already know about the Sacred Band of Thebes or did you do a little research on homosexuality and the military? Either way very interesting, I'm not sure it really applies to modern day soldiers and military brass but interesting all the same.
Lol... actually a gay friend told me about it. ;D I have read the Illiad though... plenty of homoeroticism happening there.
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Exactly Dedee, like all the other skim readers in here you have obviously missed the 100 times I also said that the female posing in Playboy does as much harm to the mission effectiveness as open gays would. Women are already in the minority and risk being molested when they are deployed with 1,000 men for 12 months. You pose in playboy you just made yourself a target for harrasment, as sad as that might be.
How entrenched can your morals be, when a couple of pics in a skin mag turn you into a molester and a rapist. That's a terrible excuse.
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How entrenched can your morals be, when a couple of pics in a skin mag turn you into a molester and a rapist. That's a terrible excuse.
You are right, It is a horribel excuse but it is the truth. I never said everyone in the military had high morals, but the ones that demonstrate they don't have high morals are removed from the military.
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You are right, It is a horribel excuse but it is the truth. I never said everyone in the military had high morals, but the ones that demonstrate they don't have high morals are removed from the military.
Oh okay. I thought you said earlier that the US has the finest military because of its high morals.
Doesn't look like rapists of women in the military have a lot to fear.
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Oh okay. I thought you said earlier that the US has the finest military because of its high morals.
Doesn't look like rapists of women in the military have a lot to fear.
The US is the best because of the high morals that 99% of us posses. There is no way to weed out every bad apple.
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The US is the best because of the high morals that 99% of us posses. There is no way to weed out every bad apple.
I agree that 99% of the people in the US military wouldn't rape someone.
But it's their training and equipment that make them the best in the world combined with their moral ethics regarding rape, torture ::), theft, and killing innocent civilians. Nothing to do with being gay or straight.
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I agree that 99% of the people in the US military wouldn't rape someone.
But it's their training and equipment that make them the best in the world combined with their moral ethics regarding rape, torture ::), theft, and killing innocent civilians. Nothing to do with being gay or straight.
is does have something to do with not being gay, being gay is immoral, we don't condone it in the military, just like adultery
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is does have something to do with not being gay, being gay is immoral, we don't condone it in the military, just like adultery
Rape, torture, theft, and killing civilians all have victims.
Gayness doesn't
That's the difference between those immoral acts
that's why gayness doesn't factor into the equation of "How morals make our military good."
Try Again Sam. ;D
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Rape, torture, theft, and killing civilians all have victims.
Gayness doesn't
That's the difference between those immoral acts
that's why gayness doesn't factor into the equation of "How morals make our military good."
Try Again Sam. ;D
Tell that to the women, whose men had anal sex with other men (on the down low), contracted AIDS and then spread it to their wives/GFs at home. TO FUCKING EASY!!!!!
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Tell that to the women, whose men had anal sex with other men (on the down low), contracted AIDS and then spread it to their wives/GFs at home. TO FUCKING EASY!!!!!
Are there a lot of those wives/GF's floating around?
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Are there a lot of those wives/GF's floating around?
I bet you would be suprised. OzmO claimed that Homosexuality had no victims. wrong as usual
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Tell that to the women, whose men had anal sex with other men (on the down low), contracted AIDS and then spread it to their wives/GFs at home. TO FUCKING EASY!!!!!
then heterosexuality does to then doesn't it? STD's
Let's ban them also!
Try Again Sam! ;D
even more easy ;)
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I bet you would be suprised. OzmO claimed that Homosexuality had no victims. wrong as usual
Perhaps I would be but I'm not so sure on a percentage basis that there's enough of them to actually warrant mentioning it.
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then heterosexuality does to then doesn't it? STD's
Let's ban them also!
Try Again Sam! ;D
even more easy ;)
What a fag, you get all excited. HETEROSEXUALITY isn't immoral and doesn't claim victims with STD. Promiscuity does. If you are moral, and only have one partner with whom you engage in vaginal sex only, guess what........exactly. However, anal sex (the only kind gay men can indulge in) does produce STDs. Which is passed, creating victims. I win again biatch
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Perhaps I would be but I'm not so sure on a percentage basis that there's enough of them to actually warrant mentioning it.
I bet it has happened to 6 digits worth. How do you think AIDS gets spread? It isn't the toilet seat.
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What a fag, you get all excited. HETEROSEXUALITY isn't immoral and doesn't claim victims with STD. Promiscuity does. If you are moral, and only have one partner with whom you engage in vaginal sex only, guess what........exactly. However, anal sex (the only kind gay men can indulge in) does produce STDs. Which is passed, creating victims. I win again biatch
MM, not everyone thinks homosexuality is immoral. I understand that you do and that many many people do but not all. There are a lot of people out there that don't consider what two consenting adults do together in their sex lives to be immoral.
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MM, not everyone thinks homosexuality is immoral. I understand that you do and that many many people do but not all. There are a lot of people out there that don't consider what two consenting adults do together in their sex lives to be immoral.
I understand that, I'm just having fun with OzmO because he keeps trying to prove a point but can't do it.
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I bet it has happened to 6 digits worth. How do you think AIDS gets spread? It isn't the toilet seat.
Perhaps you can be a little bit more specific when you say "How do you think AIDS gets spread?".
Spread to who? Wives and girlfriends? How about needles? There are a lot of junkies out there. Also, oral sex can transmit the virus as can vaginal sex under the right circumstances.
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I understand that, I'm just having fun with OzmO because he keeps trying to prove a point but can't do it.
OK, sorry for butting in. I'll let you two debate.
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What a fag, you get all excited. HETEROSEXUALITY isn't immoral and doesn't claim victims with STD. Promiscuity does. If you are moral, and only have one partner with whom you engage in vaginal sex only, guess what........exactly. However, anal sex (the only kind gay men can indulge in) does produce STDs. Which is passed, creating victims. I win again biatch
promiscuity can cause STD's in both homo and heteral relationships
Monogamous gay relationships won't. same with the other.
Try again Sam. ;D
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promiscuity can cause STD's in both homo and heteral relationships
Monogamous gay relationships won't. same with the other.
Try again Sam. ;D
even if monogomous, the chance is both of those individuals will contract STDs from anal sex, now they die and now there parents are victims! I win again
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even if monogomous, the chance is both of those individuals will contract STDs from anal sex, now they die and now there parents are victims! I win again
If they don;t have STD to begin with and stay exclusive to each other how are they going get them?
Are you like 19 or something?
Try again Sam. ;D
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If they don;t have STD to begin with and stay exclusive to each other how are they going get them?
Are you like 19 or something?
Try again Sam. ;D
Obviously you don't know how anal sex leads to STDs. See the lining of the rectum is very thin. When it tears, and then fecal matter gets in the tear and STDs are born. Did you flunk health class? The same goes for heteros that have anal. Even if they are monogomous for life, they can contract STD from each other through Anal sex. If I am 19 what are you 10?
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Tre, you are an idiot, but you are welcome. I gladly defend your freedom to be a jackass.
Yeah, you're really defending my freedoms. lol
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Great post.
What General Pace - like a good little bitch - was doing, was trying to divert attention from his commander-in-chief, who is taking a beating in the court of public opinion after being exposed as a lying sack of sh*t.
People like Bush know that they'll always have idiots like Pace around to do their bidding.
I am no "politically correct lib"... I'm a red-state (Ohio) kid who thinks Ronald Reagan is the greatest president of the twentieth century... Now that that's out of the way, I will address the rest of your point.
1. Since when are army personnel allowed to express personal opinion like that? I thought civilians were entitled to opinion, and military officials were supposed to shut up and execute orders from their civilian overlords.
2. What if the guys in some unit were racists and didn't want any negroes among them. Would you blame the black guy for joining the army, because "They knew when they joined the military how everyone felt about them"?
3. I am sure we have heroes out there in Iraq and Afghanistan, young men and women bravely serving this country, risking life and limb, who just happen to be gay. They didn't need this punch in the face from Pace. He just came out of nowhere giving out his personal opinion, for no good reason at all.
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What if a male homosexual wants to wear a dress in the military?
It's ok, but only if that's the Uniform of the Day.
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If they don;t have STD to begin with and stay exclusive to each other how are they going get them?
Are you like 19 or something?
Try again Sam. ;D
Quote #1
"What is Anal Cancer?
Simply put, cancer is an abnormal growth of cells. Anal cancer is abnormal cellular growth in and around the anus. Facts about anal cancer include:
In the general population anal cancer is fairly rare; about one in 100,000 people.
In men who have sex with men, the incidence climbs to about 35 in 100,000.
MSM who are HIV positive are twice as likely to get anal cancer than MSM who are HIV negative.
While anal cancer affects the anus and nearby anatomy, it is actually a type of skin cancer.
Anal cancer can be successfully treated if discovered early.
While anal cancer is not limited to men, it is the only cancer more common in men than women."
Quote #2
"For this reason, anal sex is the riskiest form of sexual activity when it comes to the transmission of HIV/AIDS. Tiny tears in the anal tissue are like giant superhighways for the HIV viruses, allowing them to get inside the body and enter the blood system. Anal tears provide an opening for all the other STDs as well. It may be possible for repetitive anal sex to lead to weakening of the anal sphincter, which is the muscle that tightens after we defecate. Once weakened, feces can escape the anus against our will. However, on Dr. Drew’s website [[http://www.drdrew.com/]], it says that doing Kegel exercises can help strengthen the anal sphincter.. The Kegel exercises are usually used to strengthen the muscles near the vagina. The exercises consist of tightening and relaxing the muscles that you use to stop the flow of urine. These muscles also help stop feces from escaping the anus."
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Quote #1
"What is Anal Cancer?
Simply put, cancer is an abnormal growth of cells. Anal cancer is abnormal cellular growth in and around the anus. Facts about anal cancer include:
In the general population anal cancer is fairly rare; about one in 100,000 people.
In men who have sex with men, the incidence climbs to about 35 in 100,000.
MSM who are HIV positive are twice as likely to get anal cancer than MSM who are HIV negative.
While anal cancer affects the anus and nearby anatomy, it is actually a type of skin cancer.
Anal cancer can be successfully treated if discovered early.
While anal cancer is not limited to men, it is the only cancer more common in men than women."
Quote #2
"For this reason, anal sex is the riskiest form of sexual activity when it comes to the transmission of HIV/AIDS. Tiny tears in the anal tissue are like giant superhighways for the HIV viruses, allowing them to get inside the body and enter the blood system. Anal tears provide an opening for all the other STDs as well. It may be possible for repetitive anal sex to lead to weakening of the anal sphincter, which is the muscle that tightens after we defecate. Once weakened, feces can escape the anus against our will. However, on Dr. Drew’s website [[http://www.drdrew.com/]], it says that doing Kegel exercises can help strengthen the anal sphincter.. The Kegel exercises are usually used to strengthen the muscles near the vagina. The exercises consist of tightening and relaxing the muscles that you use to stop the flow of urine. These muscles also help stop feces from escaping the anus."
So the entire gay population should be dead now or in the hospital shouldn't it?
Try again Sam. ;D
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So the entire gay population should be dead now or in the hospital shouldn't it?
Try again Sam. ;D
I love it, you can't argue with me! You have nothing to say except this sam line of BS. Like I said in my other topic earlier. You guys can't argue with the facts me and beach put on here. You can't do it can you. This whole thing started when you claim homosexuality isn't immoral because it has no victims. I proved it wrong and what do you do? change the subject!!! I love it! You suck OzmO. Not even fun. You never come back with one fact. You just change the subject over and over and go in circles.
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I love it, you can't argue with me! You have nothing to say except this sam line of BS. Like I said in my other topic earlier. You guys can't argue with the facts me and beach put on here. You can't do it can you. This whole thing started when you claim homosexuality isn't immoral because it has no victims. I proved it wrong and what do you do? change the subject!!! I love it! You suck OzmO. Not even fun. You never come back with one fact. You just change the subject over and over and go in circles.
you haven't proved it wrong.
You've simply said that there is an increase in anal cancer in gay men. Very weak argument as far as victims are concerned vs rape, murder, theft, and civilian deaths which is what we were talking about to begin with.
Keep throwing in more ad-hom, you are doing great. ;D
And Keep trying Sam. ;D
BTW g2g for a few hours so if i don;t respond quickly, don't get all hoo rahhed up for no reason. ;)
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you haven't proved it wrong.
You've simply said that there is an increase in anal cancer in gay men. Very weak argument as far as victims are concerned vs rape, murder, theft, and civilian deaths which is what we were talking about to begin with.
Keep throwing in more ad-hom, you are doing great. ;D
And Keep trying Sam. ;D
BTW g2g for a few hours so if i don;t respond quickly, don't get all hoo rahhed up for no reason. ;)
see you're circles have thrown your concentration already. The cancer was to prove that even monogomous gays can get cancer through anal sex. My original argument before you tried to change the subject was that STDs were spread by men engaging in homo sex. That is the truth. And is has affected hundreds of thousands. just like torture, murder and what not going back throughout history. It affects wives and GFs as well as their other male lovers. Like I said AIDS isn't spread by the toilet seat. So there, I proved your original argument wrong and I proved your change the subject argument wrong.
Yeah and YOU were the one that left the post one day that I hadn't answered. I could care less when you answer.
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The cancer was to prove that even monogomous gays can get cancer through anal sex. My original argument before you tried to change the subject was that STDs were spread by men engaging in homo sex. That is the truth. And is has affected hundreds of thousands.
Why do alleged heterosexuals spend so much time obsessing over gay sex?
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Why do alleged heterosexuals spend so much time obsessing over gay sex?
Because a number of people in this country are attempting to use the government to endorse "gay sex" and put it on par with innate qualities like race and gender.
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Why do alleged heterosexuals spend so much time obsessing over gay sex?
That's a good question. I think another good question is why do they care so much? What difference does it make to anyone if two consenting adults of the same gender want to have sex with each other?
I wish my biggest concern was whether or not two men or two women are having sex with each other, unfortunately I have a lot of other things to worry about.
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see you're circles have thrown your concentration already. The cancer was to prove that even monogomous gays can get cancer through anal sex. My original argument before you tried to change the subject was that STDs were spread by men engaging in homo sex. That is the truth. And is has affected hundreds of thousands. just like torture, murder and what not going back throughout history. It affects wives and GFs as well as their other male lovers. Like I said AIDS isn't spread by the toilet seat. So there, I proved your original argument wrong and I proved your change the subject argument wrong.
Yeah and YOU were the one that left the post one day that I hadn't answered. I could care less when you answer.
Umm, i was done working, if you could call it that, then i had to run some errands, but if you want to continue to make your self believe that our military is the best in the world because we don't have open gay in it and we have high moral standards then you are certainly one unenlightened farce.
Additionally the difference between victims of gay sex and victims of rape, murder, theft and civilian killings is that gays take these risk by choice, the others don't which makes your argument moot.
Your original argument of STD's being spread by gay men is also moot because it's source is promiscuity not monogamy. So just as STD's are spread by non-gays because of promiscuity it will be the same with gays.
A question for you while you thinking about how to respond most wittingly:
Is cancer an STD?
I wouldn't at all be surprised if you again try and tout your revelation of anal cancer/victim and as a victory. I suppose when a football team loses 49 to nothing they can always refer to when they got a first down in the 4th quarter.
Try again little boy.....better yet call me a few more names and run around your unit and high five everyone. you'll feel better about the weak points you've made the entire thread. ;D
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Umm, i was done working, if you could call it that, then i had to run some errands, but if you want to continue to make your self believe that our military is the best in the world because we don't have open gay in it and we have high moral standards then you are certainly one unenlightened farce.
Additionally the difference between victims of gay sex and victims of rape, murder, theft and civilian killings is that gays take these risk by choice, the others don't which makes your argument moot.
Your original argument of STD's being spread by gay men is also moot because it's source is promiscuity not monogamy. So just as STD's are spread by non-gays because of promiscuity it will be the same with gays.
A question for you while you thinking about how to respond most wittingly:
Is cancer an STD?
I wouldn't at all be surprised if you again try and tout your revelation of anal cancer/victim and as a victory. I suppose when a football team loses 49 to nothing they can always refer to when they got a first down in the 4th quarter.
Try again little boy.....better yet call me a few more names and run around your unit and high five everyone. you'll feel better about the weak points you've made the entire thread. ;D
Once again you have changed the subject of the argument, a victim is a victim no matter how you look at it. I am done running circles with your ignorant ass. Now I am going to go get some more high fives!!!
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Why do alleged heterosexuals spend so much time obsessing over gay sex?
If you look at my topic on why gays shouldn't be allowed to be open in the military you will realize I don't have a problem with who they have sex with.
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Once again you have changed the subject of the argument, a victim is a victim no matter how you look at it. I am done running circles with your ignorant ass. Now I am going to go get some more high fives!!!
So then straight couple who have anal sex are victims too? what's that percentage of the population?
try again you idiot. the only thing you are running circles around is the toilet because i keep being the crap out of you.
there's a big difference between, murder, theft, etc... victim and to consenting gay men deciding to have sex and risk the 35 in 100,000 of getting anal cancer.....
what an idiot you are.
Also answer the question: is cancer an STD?
or don't you have the balls?
You can arbitrarily call a woman a slut but you can answer a straight forward question?
What a wuss.
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So then straight couple who have anal sex are victims too? what's that percentage of the population?
try again you idiot. the only thing you are running circles around is the toilet because i keep being the crap out of you.
there's a big difference between, murder, theft, etc... victim and to consenting gay men deciding to have sex and risk the 35 in 100,000 of getting anal cancer.....
what an idiot you are.
Also answer the question: is cancer an STD?
or don't you have the balls?
You can arbitrarily call a woman a slut but you can answer a straight forward question?
What a wuss.
OzmO I answered this all day yesterday you are just to stupid to see it. Your statement was that HOMOSEXUALITY DOESN'T HAVE VICTIMS. Was that or was that not what you said. I showed several instances where homosexuality produces hundreds of thousands of victims. After I proved that wrong, YOU brought up the idea that monogomous gays don't have victims. I produced 2 quotes. One dealing with cancer, the other with STDs. You only skim read the first quote obviously.
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You guys can keep arguing about this till the cows come home, but:
1. nothing will change the fact that "militarymuscle69" is a bigot with an irrational fear of buttsex and gay, which he disguises as "morality," and
2. the thread has gone off-topic. Pace's comments were out of line, not because of their content, but because as a military official, he is not supposed to give his personal opinion, just execute orders from his civilian overlords.
Talk about "supporting the troops"... they should change that slogan to "support the white heterosexual troops only"...
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You guys can keep arguing about this till the cows come home, but:
1. nothing will change the fact that "militarymuscle69" is a bigot with an irrational fear of buttsex and gay, which he disguises as "morality," and
2. the thread has gone off-topic. Pace's comments were out of line, not because of their content, but because as a military official, he is not supposed to give his personal opinion, just execute orders from his civilian overlords.
Talk about "supporting the troops"... they should change that slogan to "support the white heterosexual troops only"...
I'm not a bigot but thanks for taking the time to read my real thoughts on the subject. And general Pace wasn't giving his personal opinion. He was staing fact on why the military doesn't allow gays to serve openly.
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Re General Pace: funny how homosexual sex is a crime in the military, but calling this crime "immoral" is a no no.
That said, I'm sure he now realizes he has to be much more careful with his public comments.
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It was his personal opinion: he called it "immoral." Since when does the government of the United States or any of its branches legislate morality?
Since General Pace is now a moral visionary, what are his positions on divorce, abortion, and contraception? What are the US armed forces' positions on these topics? Are they enforced in the military? Is an individual who uses contraception allowed to serve? What about divorced individuals?
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OzmO I answered this all day yesterday you are just to stupid to see it. Your statement was that HOMOSEXUALITY DOESN'T HAVE VICTIMS. Was that or was that not what you said. I showed several instances where homosexuality produces hundreds of thousands of victims. After I proved that wrong, YOU brought up the idea that monogomous gays don't have victims. I produced 2 quotes. One dealing with cancer, the other with STDs. You only skim read the first quote obviously.
You can draw what ever connection you want, but it's insignificant.
there's a big difference between, murder, theft, etc... victim and to consenting gay men deciding to have sex and risk the 35 in 100,000 of getting anal cancer....
So yes, you made the point that there are victims of anal sex, but you are, as usual, avoiding the fact that a percentage of straight couples engage in it also.
ALL of which is pale in comparison to rape murder etc.....
And this is what you are touting as a point made?
pathetic.
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It was his personal opinion: he called it "immoral." Since when does the government of the United States or any of its branches legislate morality?
1776?
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I'm not a bigot but thanks for taking the time to read my real thoughts on the subject. And general Pace wasn't giving his personal opinion. He was staing fact on why the military doesn't allow gays to serve openly.
guess no one is buying your BULL SHIT hehehe homophobe.
How pathetic you are.
desk jockey sits in fear or getting butt raped.
He was stating fact?
Only a BWD-NIT idiot would think that.
go back to your barracks little boy.
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guess no one is buying your BULL SHIT hehehe homophobe.
How pathetic you are.
desk jockey sits in fear or getting butt raped.
He was stating fact?
Only a BWD-NIT idiot would think that.
go back to your barracks little boy.
"Homophobe" defined as anyone who disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle?
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"Homophobe" defined as anyone who disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle?
No he's masking the fact that he fears them.
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No he's masking the fact that he fears them.
He didn't say he is afraid to serve with homosexuals.
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He didn't say he is afraid to serve with homosexuals.
he's afraid of them, and yes, it's my opinion, based on everything he's posted on this subject in addition to his attitude in a display towards women.
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It was his personal opinion: he called it "immoral." Since when does the government of the United States or any of its branches legislate morality?
Since General Pace is now a moral visionary, what are his positions on divorce, abortion, and contraception? What are the US armed forces' positions on these topics? Are they enforced in the military? Is an individual who uses contraception allowed to serve? What about divorced individuals?
Since militarymuscle69 has nothing to say in response to this post, I conclude that he has seen the fault in his reasoning.
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Since militarymuscle69 has nothing to say in response to this post, I conclude that he has seen the fault in his reasoning.
The vast majority of people in that mind frame can't see their faults even when it hits them between the eyes.
I'm sure he'll post. He's either trying to explain to his D.O. why he's on the a non-goverment site so much or he's frantically trying to find a witty come back.
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My point is simple: military officials have no business dictating morality to their subordinates.
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My point is simple: military officials have no business dictating morality to their subordinates.
I agree with you unless it comes to: murder, theft, rape etc....
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That's not morality, that's criminality.
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My point is simple: military officials have no business dictating morality to their subordinates.
What about the fact that homosexual sex is a crime in the military? Divorce, abortion, and contraception are not.
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Since militarymuscle69 has nothing to say in response to this post, I conclude that he has seen the fault in his reasoning.
Nope just had to shit. Beach said it best. Since it is a fact that homosexual sex is illegal in the military then illegal=immoral. So pace was staing fact when he called it immoral.
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That's not morality, that's criminality.
ok
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You can draw what ever connection you want, but it's insignificant.
there's a big difference between, murder, theft, etc... victim and to consenting gay men deciding to have sex and risk the 35 in 100,000 of getting anal cancer....
So yes, you made the point that there are victims of anal sex, but you are, as usual, avoiding the fact that a percentage of straight couples engage in it also.
ALL of which is pale in comparison to rape murder etc.....
And this is what you are touting as a point made?
pathetic.
You are funny. You said no victims, I showed victims. Again you resort to name calling after being proven wrong
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What about the fact that homosexual sex is a crime in the military? Divorce, abortion, and contraception are not.
That is irrelevant. Pace called the orientation "immoral," not the act. So if you are a homosexual who does not have sex at all, you are still immoral.
Plus, the "don't ask don't tell" policy states that if a homosexual's orientation is discovered, you will be fired. So a homosexual who doesn't have any homosexual sex at all can be discharged, just because his superior officer discovers that at one point, prior to joining the army, he or she had a romantic partner of the same sex.
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You are funny. You said no victims, I showed victims. Again you resort to name calling after being proven wrong
can you read?
Guess not.
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That is irrelevant. Pace called the orientation "immoral," not the act. So if you are a homosexual who does not have sex at all, you are still immoral.
Plus, the "don't ask don't tell" policy states that if a homosexual's orientation is discovered, you will be fired. So a homosexual who doesn't have any homosexual sex at all can be discharged, just because his superior officer discovers that at one point, prior to joining the army, he or she had a romantic partner of the same sex.
and they knew that prior to joining
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So, militarymuscle69, if a homosexual person decides to join the military to serve their country, and agrees to keep their orientation secret during their military service, and not have any sex at all with a partner of the same sex, you will still call them "immoral" and want them to be discharged from the military?
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So, militarymuscle69, if a homosexual person decides to join the military to serve their country, and agrees to keep their orientation secret during their military service, and not have any sex at all with a partner of the same sex, you will still call them "immoral" and want them to be discharged from the military?
actually no. and I have addressed this. I currently work with a gay man.....I'll let you key in on the fact I haven't ratted him out.
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actually no. and I have addressed this. I currently work with a gay man.....I'll let you key in on the fact I haven't ratted him out.
How incredibly generous of you...
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How incredibly generous of you...
Shows my stance on gays in the military. I know you guys hate it when you accuse someome of something and then are proven wrong. I'll try to stop doing that
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If Pace calls masturbation immoral and tries to instate a policy to that effect, what will your position be?
(Anyone caught whacking off will be discharged, and that means there will be cameras in the showers filming everyone to ensure no one touches themselves.)
Masturbation is immoral too, that's part of the "Christian biblical" tradition.
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If Pace calls masturbation immoral and tries to instate a policy to that effect, what will your position be?
(Anyone caught whacking off will be discharged, and that means there will be cameras in the showers filming everyone to ensure no one touches themselves.)
Masturbation is immoral too, that's part of the "Christian biblical" tradition.
If he makes masturbation illegal I'll have to try and not get caught, just like if a gay wants to have anal sex he just has to avoid being caught. You are kind of grabbing here. I didn't base my stance on homosexuality as immoral on the bible I based it on the UCMJ. You must have gone to the OzmO school of changing subjects when proven wrong.
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If he makes masturbation illegal I'll have to try and not get caught, just like if a gay wants to have anal sex he just has to avoid being caught. You are kind of grabbing here. I didn't base my stance on homosexuality as immoral on the bible I based it on the UCMJ. You must have gone to the OzmO school of changing subjects when proven wrong.
No, I am not talking about homosexuality specifically. My entire point is: how do you feel about your superior officers dictacting your personal morality to you?
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No, I am not talking about homosexuality specifically. My entire point is: how do you feel about your superior officers dictacting your personal morality to you?
I don't have a problem with it. I have reenlisted 2 times so it is hard to gripe. I have made the choice to be here. If I didn't like it I could get out.
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I don't have a problem with it. I have reenlisted 2 times so it is hard to gripe. I have made the choice to be here. If I didn't like it I could get out.
Thank you.
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Thank you.
for what?
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I don't have a problem with it. I have reenlisted 2 times so it is hard to gripe. I have made the choice to be here. If I didn't like it I could get out.
Just like a good little drone.
BWD-NIT
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for what?
Finally addressing the point I was making. You said you have no problem with military superiors dictating personal morality, which is what I was getting at all along.
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Finally addressing the point I was making. You said you have no problem with military superiors dictating personal morality, which is what I was getting at all along.
How does it go:
"we will tell you when to sleep, shit, and eat. Also we will tell you what's good or bad"
Destine to be a follower all his life.
A good little drone.
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How does it go:
"we will tell you when to sleep, shit, and eat. Also we will tell you what's good or bad"
Destine to be a follower all his life.
A good little drone.
another military hater
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another military hater
Actually, i love the military and anything related to it.
I just don't allow myself to be told what to think.
Obviously you do.
Drone.
Stop trying to trying to deflect from the fact you admitted.
Drone.
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Actually, i love the military and anything related to it.
I just don't allow myself to be told what to think.
Obviously you do.
Drone.
Stop trying to trying to deflect from the fact you admitted.
Drone.
Such an idiot. By your logic all law abiding citizens are drones. The US government tells you what is legal and illegal right?
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Such an idiot. By your logic all law abiding citizens are drones. The US government tells you what is legal and illegal right?
No, you just said you allow a general to dictate your personal morals.....
nice try skippy, actually, stupid try.
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No, you just said you allow a general to dictate your personal morals.....
nice try skippy, actually, stupid try.
So I am drone because I allow the UCMJ to be my moral compass. Wasn't your dad an officer? I remember you bragging about that. Guess what served as his moral compass for all those years........
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So I am drone because I allow the UCMJ to be my moral compass. Wasn't your dad an officer? I remember you bragging about that. Guess what served as his moral compass for all those years........
He own personal beliefs. Not a Generals.
try again.
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He own personal beliefs. Not a Generals.
try again.
I bet different. He served under the same UCMJ as I do.
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I bet different. He served under the same UCMJ as I do.
I hate to break your bubble, but not all people in the military are drones and accept the morality given to them.
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I hate to break your bubble, but not all people in the military are drones and accept the morality given to them.
Um yes they do. If they don't they dont' stay in the military. and really if beliving that theft, murder, adultery, sleeping on duty, being drunk and dissorderly etc... make me a bad person well so be it.
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Um yes they do. If they don't they dont' stay in the military. and really if beliving that theft, murder, adultery, sleeping on duty, being drunk and dissorderly etc... make me a bad person well so be it.
Funny, you left out gay relationships.
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Funny, you left out gay relationships.
That is why I put etc..... It is a long time used term to be all encompassing so as to avoid having to list the entire 58 punitive articles of the UCMJ
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That is why I put etc..... It is a long time used term to be all encompassing so as to avoid having to list the entire 58 punitive articles of the UCMJ
ok fair enough.
You subscribe to someone telling you how to think. I don't. It's cool.
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ok fair enough.
You subscribe to someone telling you how to think. I don't. It's cool.
however you do let someone dictate your morals. I will assume you don't steal, murder, rape, molest etc..... (you know what etc.. means now right?). You probably pay your taxes. Because you are a good moral citizen. I will give you credit for that and not attack you for being a moral US citizen. I think they call it being the bigger man
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however you do let someone dictate your morals. I will assume you don't steal, murder, rape, molest etc..... (you know what etc.. means now right?). You probably pay your taxes. Because you are a good moral citizen. I will give you credit for that and not attack you for being a moral US citizen. I think they call it being the bigger man
Are you calling yourself a bigger man?
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That is irrelevant. Pace called the orientation "immoral," not the act. So if you are a homosexual who does not have sex at all, you are still immoral.
Plus, the "don't ask don't tell" policy states that if a homosexual's orientation is discovered, you will be fired. So a homosexual who doesn't have any homosexual sex at all can be discharged, just because his superior officer discovers that at one point, prior to joining the army, he or she had a romantic partner of the same sex.
A homosexual who doesn't have homosexual sex? C'mon. That is unrealistic. A homosexual defines himself by who he is physically attracted to and who he has sex with.
I wouldn't call the fact homosexual sex is crime in the military irrelevant at all. Although I don't know the origins of this prohibition in the military, I would imagine morality was part of the discussion when they enacted this law.
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Are you calling yourself a bigger man?
Bigger than you. I dont' attack your moral goodness like you did mine
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I wouldn't call the fact homosexual sex is crime in the military irrelevant at all. Although I don't know the origins of this prohibition in the military, I would imagine morality was part of the discussion when they enacted this law.
What about heterosexual sex? Is that illegal in the military?
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A homosexual who doesn't have homosexual sex? C'mon. That is unrealistic. A homosexual defines himself by who he is physically attracted to and who he has sex with.
I wouldn't call the fact homosexual sex is crime in the military irrelevant at all. Although I don't know the origins of this prohibition in the military, I would imagine morality was part of the discussion when they enacted this law.
The UCMJ was enacted by Eisenhower in either '51 or '55.
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What about heterosexual sex? Is that illegal in the military?
if it is sodomy it is. But like anything it isn't illegal until you get caught
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Bigger than you. I dont' attack your moral goodness like you did mine
I didn't attack your moral goodness, I attacked the fact of your admission that you let a general dictate your morals.
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What about heterosexual sex? Is that illegal in the military?
I believe some of it is. Like sex between officers and enlisted, unless they're married? Militarymuscle would know better than me.
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I didn't attack your moral goodness, I attacked the fact of your admission that you let a general dictate your morals.
It isn't the general fool. It is the UCMJ. The leadership just enforces the UCMJ.
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I believe some of it is. Like sex between officers and enlisted, unless they're married? Militarymuscle would know better than me.
Good catch BB. I missed that. It is also illegal during deployments, and several other times.
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It isn't the general fool. It is the UCMJ. The leadership just enforces the UCMJ.
we were doing so well. :(
Ok, sorry the UCMJ.
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we were doing so well. :(
Ok, sorry the UCMJ.
Exactly the UCMJ guides my morals in the exact same way the laws where you live guide yours. so how are we different again?
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Exactly the UCMJ guides my morals in the exact same way the laws where you live guide yours. so how are we different again?
The difference is in other moral issues outside of the basics, murder, rape, etc...
You let the UCMJ tell you what to think even though you don;t actually follow it 100% by not blowing the whistle on your gay co-worker.
I have my own moral code that isn't governed by anyone but myself.
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The difference is in other moral issues outside of the basics, murder, rape, etc...
You let the UCMJ tell you what to think even though you don;t actually follow it 100% by not blowing the whistle on your gay co-worker.
I have my own moral code that isn't governed by anyone but myself.
So like you just said I have the ability to think for myslef. Thanks for pointing that out
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So like you just said I have the ability to think for myslef. Thanks for pointing that out
;D