Author Topic: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!  (Read 20723 times)

sculpture

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #125 on: January 05, 2006, 02:39:29 PM »
Boy did the judging hold the sport back by awarding yates year after year the title. Just look at flex and shawn, both paradigms of physical perfection and then yates who had mounds of muscle just not in the right places

suckmymuscle

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2007, 09:12:49 PM »
Boy did the judging hold the sport back by awarding yates year after year the title. Just look at flex and shawn, both paradigms of physical perfection and then yates who had mounds of muscle just not in the right places

  Flex could have beaten Dorian, but it's not fair to say that his physique is better. A big part of bodybuilding is muscularity, and Dorian had that to spare when compared to Flex. Is a guy with a more beautiul physique a better bodybuilder than one who doesen't look as aesthetic but who has a much higher degree of muscular development? Not necessarily.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Hulkster

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #127 on: March 01, 2007, 09:23:29 PM »
  Flex could have beaten Dorian, but it's not fair to say that his physique is better. A big part of bodybuilding is muscularity, and Dorian had that to spare when compared to Flex. Is a guy with a more beautiul physique a better bodybuilder than one who doesen't look as aesthetic but who has a much higher degree of muscular development? Not necessarily.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

but it can be.

why?

because dorian had more size (and width).

but not better quality.

quality is part of muscularity too. not just physical size.

You, ND and Co cannot seem to understand that in bodybuilding, "muscularity" refers to all the attributes of the muscles themselves:

size
shape
detail
vascularity

not just size.

If your definition is correct, then any monster powerlifter would win 20 Mr. Olympias because of their 'higher degree of muscular development"..

which of course is stupid.

Now can you guys see your error?

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Hulkster

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2007, 09:25:35 PM »
Boy did the judging hold the sport back by awarding yates year after year the title. Just look at flex and shawn, both paradigms of physical perfection and then yates who had mounds of muscle just not in the right places

what is REALLY SCARY is that he was PRE TEAR in 93..

the judging for some of the subsequent contests was justs ridiculous: :-\
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Condor

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #129 on: March 01, 2007, 09:28:44 PM »
NOTHING ELSE NEEDS TO BE SAID






I see a much bigger and thicker back in this particular pose is what I see.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2007, 09:52:20 PM »
but it can be.

why?

because dorian had more size (and width).

but not better quality.

quality is part of muscularity too. not just physical size.

You, ND and Co cannot seem to understand that in bodybuilding, "muscularity" refers to all the attributes of the muscles themselves:

size
shape
detail
vascularity

not just size.

If your definition is correct, then any monster powerlifter would win 20 Mr. Olympias because of their 'higher degree of muscular development"..

which of course is stupid.

Now can you guys see your error?

  Hulkster, my point is that Dorian had a different structure than Flex, but his struture was close to perfect and he packed lots of muscle to it. Just because Dorian's frame was not as aesthetic as Flex's it doesen't mean that it was less symmetrical. Again, Dorian's structure was close to perfect except for his wide hips.

  And who said Dorian's muscles lacked quality? Nasser was 280 lbs and a 260 lbs Dorian out-muscled him. Why? Because Dorian's muscles had lots of quality to them: they were very separated and looked like stone. As for shape, I prefer Dorian's, and so do many judges. Dorian defeated many guys with rounder muscles than him, so your point is nil.

  Some judges might prefer Ronnie's and Flex's round muscles; some might prefer Dorian's. Why can't you understand this? Like I said before, Dorian defeated several guys with better "shape"(according to you), so this clearly points out that having round muscles does not make you immediately a winner in the judges eyes. Hope this helps!

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Hulkster

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2007, 10:05:33 PM »
no, you are right.

round muscles don't win contests by themselves....

however, when you take a 257 pound frame with narrow hips and wide lats, stick in some round muscle bellies, throw in some super detail and vascularity, and you get this:

an unbeatable combination.

note the word 'combination'

you guys never seen to understand that traits in bodybuilding do nothing by themselves. the traits must complement other traits.

so, we know dorian beat guys with rounder muscles...but none of those guys ALSO had size and width like Ronnie...

advantage: Ronnie:

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suckmymuscle

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #132 on: March 02, 2007, 01:38:02 AM »
no, you are right.

round muscles don't win contests by themselves....

however, when you take a 257 pound frame with narrow hips and wide lats, stick in some round muscle bellies, throw in some super detail and vascularity, and you get this:

an unbeatable combination.

note the word 'combination'

you guys never seen to understand that traits in bodybuilding do nothing by themselves. the traits must complement other traits.

so, we know dorian beat guys with rounder muscles...but none of those guys ALSO had size and width like Ronnie...

advantage: Ronnie:



  Hulkster, the bottom line of a bodybuilding show is assessing muscularity&symmetry from different angles, and the bottom line is that Dorian in his 1995 form is more muscular&symmetrical than Ronnie from more angles and in more poses. The judges wouldn't look at Coleman and decide that, since he had round muscle bellies and size, that he's better.

  First, like I said, round muscles are not a universal taste among judges, so that's a stretch. Secondly, that Dorian at 260 lbs would defeat a 257 lbs Ronnie in muscularity is a given, since Dorian defeated 280 lbs guys in that category. Dorian is not missing any muscles in his body except for his torn biceps, and Ronnie is lacking in calves, so there goes symmetry. That would be a tie.

  Basically, your whole argument boils down to size with shape, but that's nonsense because shape is a taste, and although the 1999 Ronnie is roughly as big as the 1995 Dorian, the latter is still bigger and looks more muscular. So, in essence: shape wouldn't necessarily tip the scales in Ronnie's favor, Coleman still gets out-muscled by Dorian and Yates is more complete from more angles. What do you have left? Dorian defeats Coleman in the symmetry round and in most mandatories in the muscularity round, and shape is arbitrary.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

 

kyomu

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #133 on: March 02, 2007, 02:02:50 AM »
Oh NO! Another Dorian vs Ronnie thread which will be 1000pages long!

Mods,delate this thread. We have one realy long already.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #134 on: March 03, 2007, 03:00:59 AM »
Oh NO! Another Dorian vs Ronnie thread which will be 1000pages long!

Mods,delate this thread. We have one realy long already.

  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...not even racial slurrs and threats of violence get deleted on getbig, let alone a thread. ;D

SUCKMYMUSCLE

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Re: Dorian vs Ronnie! ....lets simplify the debate.. Volume vs Density!
« Reply #135 on: March 03, 2007, 07:49:49 AM »
there is only one way to solve this argument, and that is to have them square off on stage................OH yah I almost forgot, they have already and Dorian beat Ron everytime.

DOnt give me "Ron didnt hit his peak BS" as they are almost the exact same age.

you must be dumb are you.

for one you said that the argument hulkster presented was conjecture. that ronnie hann't hit his peak, i would agree with this argument but you say its open ended and subjective.

then you claim based on yates previously beating ronnie, he would continue to do so, which is also conjecture making your argument by your own admission moot.

the age thing is also moot, people dont progress at the same time, to assume this is to be a moron.

also, others beat ronnie when he had not hit his peak. shawn, nasser, dillet etc etc.. so lets use your logic. dorian beat ronnie everytime they met, so you assume or base you argument that, that scenario would continue. no it wouldnt. if you accept that then you would have to accept that everyone who beat ronnie would also continue beating ronnie. that is, shawn would always beat ronnie, nasser, kevin etcc... but we know that this never happened in fact the exact opposite happened. so ronnie did get better, your argument is stupid. he clearly never hit his peak and he began beating everyone he did not previously beat.

your arguments are weak.