Strength gained relative to test dosage- your experience

[MAXX]

So i've been off for 3 months or so now. And obviously lost strength. Around 50 pounds less in the benchpress for example. This was being on "small" dosage of 250-300 over about a year.

So I was thinking what is the general consensus on gained strenth on natural beselevel compared to what test dosage.

If I gained around 15% in strength in general across all lifts how much would i gain on twice that dosage so 550-600mg/w? I.e.gained strength relative to test dosage increase.

I'm sure there are studies but it would be interesting to hear anecdotal experience on here.

I guess it's common to add other compounds than just test so maybe hard to get that anecdotal data.

(also yes I realize there is very much diminishing returns/ S- shaped curve to that strenght increase)

[IroNat]

The tried and true method to become extremely strong is the following:

Lift a baby calf and carry it around everyday.
As it grows larger and larger you will become stronger and stronger.
One day it will be a huge, full grown bull weighing over 1000 lbs and you will be carrying it around easily.
At some point you will want to slaughter the bull and eat it.
Then get some barbells or heavy sandbags and carry them around instead.

[NaturalWonder83]

How can you guys handle giving yourself needles over and over? Aren't your hands shaking? When you have to go to the doctor for blood tests, is it easier to handle being you've been injecting yourself frequently?

[MAXX]

How can you guys handle giving yourself needles over and over? Aren't your hands shaking? When you have to go to the doctor for blood tests, is it easier to handle being you've been injecting yourself frequently?

As anything you get used to it. But sure it is annoying somewhat but no big deal.

Also, personally because my dosages where pretty small I could use tiny insulin syringes without a problem. The needle is so small it's like a mosquito bite. Usually I don't even feel it unless the rare occation I hit a nerve.

The bodybuilders injecting tons of stuff probably use like 22g or whatever, because otherwise you would spend so much time injecting with small gauge needles. That would probably suck in the long run

[Humble Narcissist]

As anything you get used to it. But sure it is annoying somewhat but no big deal.

Also, personally because my dosages where pretty small I could use tiny insulin syringes without a problem. The needle is so small it's like a mosquito bite. Usually I don't even feel it unless the rare occation I hit a nerve.

The bodybuilders injecting tons of stuff probably use like 22g or whatever, because otherwise you would spend so much time injecting with small gauge needles. That would probably suck in the long run

The only needles I ever used were the Sustanon 250 needles. Felt like getting gored by a bull.

[IroNat]

The only needles I ever used were the Sustanon 250 needles. Felt like getting gored by a bull.

Did you get gored by the bull you carried around?

[illuminati]

Ronnie - Everybody wants to be a Big Bodybuilder - yet no one wants
to use a big ass 19 gauge needle. 

[robcguns]

How can you guys handle giving yourself needles over and over? Aren't your hands shaking? When you have to go to the doctor for blood tests, is it easier to handle being you've been injecting yourself frequently?

It’s awesome. Feel like a machine. I’m actually shooting 6 days a week now. Fuck it. I love being stuck with needles and love giving blood.

[GymnJuice]

How can you guys handle giving yourself needles over and over? Aren't your hands shaking? When you have to go to the doctor for blood tests, is it easier to handle being you've been injecting yourself frequently?

Needles are way scarier when someone else is holding them. Poking yourself is one thing, but getting poked by someone else feels completely different. At least that’s what Schizzo’s sister says.

[joswift]

I wouldnt worry, no one in the checkout queue will know your bench is down 50lbs

Im sure it will pass the time if you bring it up with the person behind you

[Darren Avey]

I've been off six months ,strength s still the same.
Obvious why.
I must have had fake shit.

Don't buy from "him" in Kingston area west london

[joswift]

I've been off six months ,strength s still the same.
Obvious why.
I must have had fake shit.

Don't buy from "him" in Kingston area west london

Now you tell me..

[Van_Bilderass]

I think it's very hard to equate a certain test dosage to a percentage strength gain, so many factors involved in "demonstratable strength." Certain experts argue any dosage of steroids "only" give about 10% extra on the powerlifts. That's a naturally maxed out powerlifter going on steroids. For bodybuilding the difference is night and day. For me, orals are more effective for strength, like Anadrol and Dianabol. I actually watched an elite powerlifter go on steroids after he stopped competing and he gained about 10% on the raw powerlifts over a couple of years of cycling.

I just lost 13 kilos over 2 weeks of being in the hospital. I think I could be fully back in 3 weeks if I wanted to with GH, insulin and a little test.

[Beefjake]

I just lost 13 kilos over 2 weeks of being in the hospital.

😕 what happened? You ok now?

[BlackMetallic]

Ronnie - Everybody wants to be a Big Bodybuilder - yet no one wants
to use a big ass 19 gauge needle. 

Back in 95 I watched a guy grab some 16g syringes. He looked at me and says “cannons”

He said he used them cuz he just wanted to get it over with as fast as possible

[MAXX]

I think it's very hard to equate a certain test dosage to a percentage strength gain, so many factors involved in "demonstratable strength." Certain experts argue any dosage of steroids "only" give about 10% extra on the powerlifts. That's a naturally maxed out powerlifter going on steroids. For bodybuilding the difference is night and day. For me, orals are more effective for strength, like Anadrol and Dianabol. I actually watched an elite powerlifter go on steroids after he stopped competing and he gained about 10% on the raw powerlifts over a couple of years of cycling.

I just lost 13 kilos over 2 weeks of being in the hospital. I think I could be fully back in 3 weeks if I wanted to with GH, insulin and a little test.

Not my experience then. And just observing natural power lifting vs enhanced the number difference is more significant than that. And sure, "the look" on steroids sure is different. Because of other factors than just muscle fiber size increase. Things like increase in blood volume, blood pressure, water retention etc. Increases the swelling size of the muscle.

Anyway i just googled a study of 600mg of test anministred to 40 men. The strength avg increase of their bench was 22%. Squat was 38%(!). So avg increase in strength 30%.

My strength increase @300mg- +15%, their strength @600mg- +30%

Pretty telling for me that strength is very much correlated to dosage 

[MAXX]

Back in 95 I watched a guy grab some 16g syringes. He looked at me and says “cannons”

He said he used them cuz he just wanted to get it over with as fast as possible

Nice to have a muscle biopsy every time you inject

[Bevo]

Interesting to see top amateurs and pros rep 315 with ease on flat bench. From my observations pretty much every single one of them can do that weight whether off season or dieting, and many others can even do 405 for a few even though, none of them are training for strength. With the amount of gear they are on, and how much they weigh, I suppose that is the standard

[Van_Bilderass]

😕 what happened? You ok now?

Had another pancreatitis episode. I hope I'll recover well. Surgeon said he is rarely surprised looking at scans but I seemed to be doing very, very well with little internal damage considering how sick I was. My kidneys almost shut down completely and I couldn't get an x-ray until after 10 days since the contrast solution they use can damage the kidneys further if weak. Now I have a very weak body and a swollen belly due to fluid build up. I can almost get my hand around my upper arms. Looks really bad  I know from previous experience that I could inflate back up in just a few weeks but I want to be conservative and not use more than legitimate TRT or just above

Not my experience then. And just observing natural power lifting vs enhanced the number difference is more significant than that. And sure, "the look" on steroids sure is different. Because of other factors than just muscle fiber size increase. Things like increase in blood volume, blood pressure, water retention etc. Increases the swelling size of the muscle.

Anyway i just googled a study of 600mg of test anministred to 40 men. The strength avg increase of their bench was 22%. Squat was 38%(!). So avg increase in strength 30%.

My strength increase @300mg- +15%, their strength @600mg- +30%

Pretty telling for me that strength is very much correlated to dosage 

Well the thing you might have missed is that this is in powerlifters who are elite and "specialists" already, guys who are truly maxed out naturally. No lesser expert than Charles Poliquin threw out that quote about 10% vs night and day in bb. Also if you gain a ton of weight on drugs it will affect strength more vs staying pretty much in a weight class. My friend went from a 300kg deadlift to 330kg in the years he juiced. Depending on how you looked at it that could be considered huge. I went from 130 x 1 on incline to 180kg x 2 on my first Dianabol cycle. That's a 115lbs increase for double the reps

Some "experts" opine test doesn't even really start working in a PED kind of way until 250mg due to some type of level having to be reached. I don't think that's really correct. Watched a young guy at the gym get on legitimate TRT and the change was insane. He was truly hypogonadal and he was truly in normal range after the Nebido was put in since this wasn't a "longevity" or "sports TRT" clinic.

[Humble Narcissist]

Nice to have a muscle biopsy every time you inject

You can see whether you have red or white fibers in that muscle.

[MAXX]

Well the thing you might have missed is that this is in powerlifters who are elite and "specialists" already, guys who are truly maxed out naturally. No lesser expert than Charles Poliquin threw out that quote about 10% vs night and day in bb. Also if you gain a ton of weight on drugs it will affect strength more vs staying pretty much in a weight class. My friend went from a 300kg deadlift to 330kg in the years he juiced. Depending on how you looked at it that could be considered huge. I went from 130 x 1 on incline to 180kg x 2 on my first Dianabol cycle. That's a 115lbs increase for double the reps

Some "experts" opine test doesn't even really start working in a PED kind of way until 250mg due to some type of level having to be reached. I don't think that's really correct. Watched a young guy at the gym get on legitimate TRT and the change was insane. He was truly hypogonadal and he was truly in normal range after the Nebido was put in since this wasn't a "longevity" or "sports TRT" clinic.

well if I take myself as an example I think I pushed my own natural limit as close as I could I think as my progress really slowed don and did not move from like 27-30 even thouh I tried to push it. I did get up tp 315 for 5 reps bench  as best naturally but that was being 15 kg more fat on me than Id want. getting fat being in a big calorie surplus helps alot for a natural trying to push strength.

then at like age 40(due to not training seriously for many years(kids/life etc.) I pushed my strength up to 315 for a single at much leaner bodyfat. Then I started the test and got to 360 for 3 reps after like 4 months on 250-300 test ew.

So for me even though i wash probably pushing my natural limit the increase was still 15%.

regardless I see many examples that speaks against what you say about elite lifters pushing limits naturally not gaining more than 10%.

Take Pete Rubish. Deadlift specialist. Did 900 deadlift I believe(maybe slightly more don't remember). And that was on test and tren, on pretty high dosages.

He then went cold turkey off gear. Documented everything on youtube. Did everythign he could to get his natural test levels back, which he did manage to do. And then tried to push his natural numbers. His deadlift naturally, around 600... So naturally his Deadlift is 2/3, or 33% less, than of that on steroids.

I think from everything I see and gather from my own experience now and what I can see honest people do achieve on gear vs off is that lifting and bodybuilding is highly androgen level dependant.

You remember "True Adonis" on here, he pretty much coined the phrase "all drugs", and that is sadly... very  true about bodybuilding and powerlifting. Sure training and diet has a part too but to a large extent pushing dosages is likely very much a thing.

Tbh the biggest "black pill" for me was the autopsy report of Dallas Mcgarver. He is imo probably the strongest bodybuilder(successfull one) ever, AND his dosages where in the autopsy report extreme. 10 grams.... The correlation of dosages and strength/size there is hard to not see past.

[MAXX]

Interesting to see top amateurs and pros rep 315 with ease on flat bench. From my observations pretty much every single one of them can do that weight whether off season or dieting, and many others can even do 405 for a few even though, none of them are training for strength. With the amount of gear they are on, and how much they weigh, I suppose that is the standard

from what I gather from interviews/podcasts etc most pros say they are in contest prep on between 700-1000 test and then on top of that something like deca and tren + most of them also on hgh.

I'd say I would rep out 405 with those dosages too after being on that for a while.

[MAXX]

sorry to bump my own thread but the 10 grams found in the autopsy of Dallas closesly coincides with the amounts Matt Jansen had one of his competitors do. 8,4 grams of androgens... So his top athlete that Dallas was probably did even more.

5:40 in

[Van_Bilderass]

regardless I see many examples that speaks against what you say about elite lifters pushing limits naturally not gaining more than 10%.

Oh I think you'll find many examples contradicting this "rule." But I feel many also don't gain as much as expected strength-wise. I've even seen a couple of seemingly total non-responders, other than 2kg of extra water and little strength at all. I was at an ugly 160kg/350lbs at 17 with barely any muscle on me, though I had been totally obsessed with bench for a few years. Gym owner said I was juiced to shit but I had never even seen any gear Then a while later I got on Dianabol and strength skyrocketed and I tore my first pec very badly.

Darren Avey must have been extremely unlucky to get completely bunk test in the UK. Or he might just be a poor responder. Usually there is something in UG test, maybe a little underdosed at worst.

Anadrol is king IME. Weird thing is it didn't seem to work at all the first few times I tried it.