Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.

[Vince B]

To reply to Chris Mason. I am sorry Chris, but sometimes I don't see a need to reply to every question or sometimes I overlook some.

There was an important piece of research that suggested DOMS is related to rebuilding of fibers in the muscle. I will see if I can find the paper. That supported what I was advocating but the lads on HST forum didn't accept it as being noteworthy. Those guys are very hard to convince of anything except HST! Dan Moore is very knowledgeable about the science re muscles and so are several of the guys there.

If you train a muscle using volume and maximum resistance you will generate severe DOMS and, I believe, growth. I have done it successful for a full month and the growth was constant and measureable.

[Vince B]

No worries, Hedgehog. Even though my business is owning a gym and building gym equipment I do not charge for information unless I give seminars and training camps in my gym. I would like to see others contribute their ideas like Milos recommended. We should all have access to the various theories and methods out there. That way we have a chance at progessing instead of bashing our collective heads together.

[SteelePegasus]

SteelePegasus. I don't see too many guys my age who  have more muscles than me and that includes Arnold. What interests me is the potential of all bodies to grow and even in supposedly old age. Anyway, my theory is independent of individuals. All my results are anecdotal and not a scientific experiment.

By the way, I wasn't knocking you in this thread.

Vince, forgive me for not making it clear. I was talking about Vince G

I respect you, and constantly check this thread hoping to get more information from you
I am grabbing bits and pieces here and there and applying them to my routine

today I did back and biceps..my biceps are not are sore as I would like. So are per your instructions I am doing to hit them again tomorrow first thing.

I am waiting patiently for your workout guideline

[Rammer]

Vince, let me ask you this.  If a guy can bench press 365 for 8 reps does doing a warmup with the empty bar for 15 reps count as a set?  The warmups required for a HIT workout do not tax the muscles nor give a pump, if they do then you are doing HIT wrong.  If I grab a 5 lb plate and do some shoulder rotations to warm up the joint is that a set?  Does picking up a couple of plates to load the bar count as a set?  Vince I take it that you have never performed a HIT workout in your life.  You can either train long or you can train hard.  You can't train long and hard which is what you are advocating.  I did some searching and found an interesting post on the ironage board from years ago about Dorian training using HIT.  It has an account of an actual workout and the weights he handled and the reps.  You should check it out Vince:
http://ironage.us/yabbse/index.php?topic=2393.0
HIT works, I know because I did it, and it works better than any other type of training I have ever done.  I'm natural and built a national level physique.  Why spend 8 hours in the gym when all you need is 45 mins?  I wish I had a nickel for all the time you've wasted in the gym Vince.  I'd be a multi-billionaire  .

Vince can you please answer my post above.  Selectively responding to certain questions while avoiding others is no way to debate.

[Vince B]

Rammer, I know what you are getting at. I have done Olympic weight lifting in the past. We always warmed up with 135 no matter how strong we were. Most weightlifters do this as well no matter how much they can lift. Are those warmup sets necessary or are they something we do that was passed down and probably aren't important? I can tell you I did pull a muscle in the press with 135 pounds one day. That reminded me that even 135 is a substantial weight. It is basically doing 67 1/2 pounds in each hand and that is a lot of weight if you used dumbbells.

I know of no one who does the empty bar as a warmup who can bench over 400 pounds. If someone did then I would count that set as part of his routine because it still takes time.

HIT insists you cannot train with high intensity and train for a long time. They define intensity as a percentage of a 1 rep maximum. Clearly no one can do set after set with his 1 rep maximum so that statement is true.

There is a threshold beyond which hypertrophy will be stimulated. For advanced trainees this is somewhere around 75% of a 1 RM. When I could bench 410 pounds I could warmup with 225 for about 18 full reps. I suppose selecting about 250 pounds would have been sufficient to trigger hypertrophy if done for a long session of many sets. I would start at 15 reps and continue set after set hoping to get at least 8 reps a set. I imagine with sufficient rest one could sustain this routine for a long time and perhaps several hours.

You would be a poor man if you got money for every hour I spend in the gym. I am naturally lazy and do not like lifting weights. Most weeks I train less than an hour. If you have made good gains using your method then you have no need to do anything else. It is still possible that you might grow larger and faster with other protocols. Unless you have tried them you can't be sure you have the ultimate program.

I think the gains from my method will eclipse what HIT can generate and you don't have to train 8 hours a day, either. For most trainees the amount of time will be 2 hours or less. That should be sufficient to get any muscle growing steadily.

[Vince B]

Who would have believed a training thread would be near the top on this board for several days? Vince Gironda said that everywhere he went people wanted information. That is still true today.

SteelePegasus. Biceps are very difficult to get sore. Remember that the biceps have 3 functions. Flexion, supination and lifting the arm. If you select seated dumbbell curls you might be able to work all three functions. Rotate the dumbbells as you curl and then lift the dumbbells at the end of the rep. Do them slowly. If you hold the dumbbells towards one end then you will work the supination muscles to twist the dumbbells upward. Twist the dumbbells before they reach a horizontal position.

Get in there the next day and blast them any way you can. You can use several exercises if you want to. The key is getting them sore. This kind of training will expose how pathetic most gym equipment is. The best triceps machine other than the ones in my gym is the MedX triceps machine that has resistance near the complete extension. There may be other good machines out there but if you sit down and have your arms raised you cannot push hard enough to make the triceps grow. You can lower the seat and lean into the machine. I had to do that in Canada but it still wasn't right.

[alexxx]

When I first started lifting weights in 83, coach made us do Arthur Jones Full Body Workout routine 3 days a week in high school.

I used Mentzers HIT training in the late 90s because of the limited time I had to hit the gym and I got some great results from it although it could have been the gear I started using at the time.  I used the same thing for the Metrolina


For the Mountaineer, I used Arnold's split training routine working out twice a day 6 days a week. 





Honestly, I think that there is no superior training routine.  I just mix it around so the workout doesn't get stale and the body can't really tell the difference.  Resistance is resistance

And this is the secret to your success you say?

You are as far gone as the monkey who started this thread.

[TheGoldenPrince]

And this is the secret to your success you say?

You are as far gone as the monkey who started this thread.

Come on Alexxx, don't forget Vince won the overall in one of the premier national competitions of his day...you? Where's the respect? He is spouting lots of nonsense now yes BUT if you look closer at his reams of text, there are some gems that will accelerate your progress in BB.

[alexxx]

Come on Alexxx, don't forget Vince won the overall in one of the premier national competitions of his day...you? Where's the respect? He is spouting lots of nonsense now yes BUT if you look closer at his reams of text, there are some gems that will accelerate your progress in BB.

How will he prove his ways. What he is suggesting is nothing new and basically a rip of Arnold's methods.

[TheGoldenPrince]

How will he prove his ways. What he is suggesting is nothing new and basically a rip of Arnold's methods.

Actually his method is a bit different. Let's just see what happens. Although it'll probably flop, what harm could it do? If it actually does work, even a bit, all of us will see greater strides in our development.

[Vince B]

See, it is easy to be confused with the more famous Vince on this forum. What a pity he ever posted his photos. He would still be a force to reckon with!

I am posting what I believe. There is a lot behind what I post. That is partly why I have taken so long to present it all. Most bodybuilders prefer to see sets and reps whereas the theory is what is really important. If you grasp the theory and know how to apply it you have learned something important.

Let me relate a sobering experience with a fellow at my gym. Let's call him Tony. Well, Tony wants to get his arms bigger. So I showed him various methods to put more mechanical tension on his arms. He also worries about his appearance so he is always the same weight. How on earth can he expect to grow? He cannot and he does not grow. There is another problem that defies theories. If a person cannot put mechanical tension on a target muscle it cannot grow. Tony is one of those guys.  He blasts away but only his shoulders get bigger. Well, his arms come up a bit, but more or less stay the same. I have supervised his training on several occasions and when doing the Nautilus biceps curls he uses his shoulders to move the resistance. Even if I hold his shoulders down he still cheats. It is amazing. I literally cannot help him. He cannot do the exercises strict enough to cause any growth except in his shoulders. That is partly okay because big shoulders look impressive so his training is not a complete waste of time.  He would be better off not doing arms and concentrating on presses and other movements.

[Rammer]

Come on Alexxx, don't forget Vince won the overall in one of the premier national competitions of his day...you? Where's the respect? He is spouting lots of nonsense now yes BUT if you look closer at his reams of text, there are some gems that will accelerate your progress in BB.

You mean gems like this quote:
"I am naturally lazy and do not like lifting weights. Most weeks I train less than an hour."
Vince, how can you go on for 16 pages about your theories and say you are going to test them on yourself and then say the above quote.

[alexxx]

You mean gems like this quote:
"I am naturally lazy and do not like lifting weights. Most weeks I train less than an hour."
Vince, how can you go on for 16 pages about your theories and say you are going to test them on yourself and then say the above quote.

lol seems Vince spends all his time online instead of proving himself in the gym.

[TheGoldenPrince]

You mean gems like this quote:
"I am naturally lazy and do not like lifting weights. Most weeks I train less than an hour."
Vince, how can you go on for 16 pages about your theories and say you are going to test them on yourself and then say the above quote.

Haha yeah, actually I find some of his stuff funny as heck too. But I find his stuff on injury prevention and what hedid unorthofox that led to one inch increases in armsand calves intriguing. Still, his nutrition theory is garbage to say the least.

[Rammer]

Haha yeah, actually I find some of his stuff funny as heck too. But I find his stuff on injury prevention and what hedid unorthofox that led to one inch increases in armsand calves intriguing. Still, his nutrition theory is garbage to say the least.

His arms and calves didn't grow, the muscle tissue was damaged and inflamed so it measured larger with a tape measure.  Go get a sunburn and measure your arms, they will be at least 1/8" bigger because your skin is inflamed and puffy.  Did your arms grow? 

[alexxx]

His arms and calves didn't grow, the muscle tissue was damaged and inflamed so it measured larger with a tape measure.  Go get a sunburn and measure your arms, they will be at least 1/8" bigger because your skin is inflamed and puffy.  Did your arms grow? 

Yeah I got that same effect on all bodyparts when training full body workouts everyday. Then when I stopped for a couple of days the pump went away and measures back to normal.

[TheGoldenPrince]

His arms and calves didn't grow, the muscle tissue was damaged and inflamed so it measured larger with a tape measure.  Go get a sunburn and measure your arms, they will be at least 1/8" bigger because your skin is inflamed and puffy.  Did your arms grow? 

Maybe...but I thought he said the increases were permanent?

[Vince B]

If you get an injury and cannot train you lose some of your gains. Sad but true.

About training. I don't like to train unless I am doing it to grow. If I happen to be ill or busy I don't train. I don't like it but as you get older you find other things more interesting than lifting weights. Seems I am not the only one spending too much time on line.

[Vince B]

I think after 400 posts the moderators can move this thread to the training forum and perhaps those who are interested can find it there. There is no need for the thead to be contaminated by the usual GB nonsense.

[BEAST 8692]

His arms and calves didn't grow, the muscle tissue was damaged and inflamed so it measured larger with a tape measure.  Go get a sunburn and measure your arms, they will be at least 1/8" bigger because your skin is inflamed and puffy.  Did your arms grow? 

very good point.

a lot of people just don't get. they confuse things like pump and swelling with hypertrophy.

i guess when you're a fat ass like vince you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. i mean he can't see his actual muscles anyway underneath all that fat so any swelling at all would convince him.

vince, my grandma has better definition and seperation in her arms than you and they're bigger too.

she puts it down to 100s of sets of knitting interspaced with one minute breaks throughout a 8 hour workout. hey maybe you have got something there.

[TheGoldenPrince]

Vince looked pretty good when he won the IFBB Mr Canada Overall title.

[BEAST 8692]

Vince looked pretty good when he won the IFBB Mr Canada Overall title.

yes he did and you have to give him kudos for competing, but he was doing what everyone else was doing at that time including the same style of training, which is different to what he's talking about now, some 30 years on.

the difference is that what he was doing then was/is used successfully by many bodybuilders. now he's talking straight from his rectum and making it up as he goes along.

one thing is obvious. there is only one reason he started this thread and that is to get attention. i just don't know/care why.

[Vince B]

I posted this thread to prove a point that training theories are of interest to bodybuilders. When a few earnest guys like CT contributed it took the discussion to a new level. The moderators insisted I outline my program which I did and made it practical enough to follow. The really long training for maximum hypertrophy is what is really interesting. That is something that is worth pursuing. Of course, modern bodybuilders don't have to try training 8 hours a day every third day on the same two muscle groups. They merely take various drug stacks and hope for the best. I want to see if maximum hypertrophy is possible for naturals. Unless someone actually tries this method it cannot be dismissed out of hand by Getbig armchair experts. Imagine huge guys with small, natural waists! It is possible and whoever succeeds will surely be something to marvel at. 

[Vince B]

1: Histochem Cell Biol. 2004 Mar;121(3):219-27. Epub 2004 Feb 26. Related Articles, Links 

 
Evidence for myofibril remodeling as opposed to myofibril damage in human muscles with DOMS: an ultrastructural and immunoelectron microscopic study.

Yu JG, Carlsson L, Thornell LE.

Department of Integrative Medical Biology, Section for Anatomy, Umea University, 901 87 Umea, Sweden.

The myofibrillar and cytoskeletal alterations observed in delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) caused by eccentric exercise are generally considered to represent damage. By contrast our recent immunohistochemical studies suggested that the alterations reflect myofibrillar remodeling (Yu and Thornell 2002; Yu et al. 2003). In the present study the same human muscle biopsies were further analyzed with transmission electron microscopy and immunoelectron microscopy. We show that the ultrastructural hallmarks of DOMS, Z-disc streaming, Z-disc smearing, and Z-disc disruption were present in the biopsies and were significantly more frequent in biopsies taken 2-3 days and 7-8 days after exercise than in those from controls and 1 h after exercise. Four main types of changes were observed: amorphous widened Z-discs, amorphous sarcomeres, double Z-discs, and supernumerary sarcomeres. We confirm by immunoelectron microscopy that the main Z-disc protein alpha-actinin is not present in Z-disc alterations or in the links of electron-dense material between Z-discs in longitudinal register. These alterations were related to an increase of F-actin and desmin, where F-actin was present within the strands of amorphous material. Desmin, on the other hand, was seen in less dense regions of the alterations. Our results strongly support that the myofibrillar and cytoskeletal alterations, considered to be the hallmarks of DOMS, reflect an adaptive remodeling of the myofibrils. Copyright 2004 Springer-Verlag

PMID: 14991331 [PubMed - in process]

[TheAnimal]

Imagine huge guys with small, natural waists! It is possible and whoever succeeds will surely be something to marvel at. 

Even so they would have a hard time proving they are indeed natural ala Skip La Cour