Flat Bench Press - is full depth really necessary?

[JonBoy]

I was just wondering about whether everyone thought that when doing the bench press (bar bell) you always needed to go all the way down to your chest.

I find that my shoulders fatigue quickly when I do this and I miss out on working the chest at higher weights as my shoulders are tired.

I've also been warned about hyper-extending the rotator cuffs/shoulders- my personal trainer reckons that you get most of the benefit if you bring the bar down to 2 inches above your chest without the extra strain on your shoulders, still working the chest.

Anyone help me on this one, share your experiences?

Cheers

[Overload]

Yes...

it sounds like your form is off...

[pobrecito]

yes, bring it down all the way to your chest - in a slow and controlled manner.

[JonBoy]

That's interesting because my personal trainer that gave me this info is Charles Clairmonte (3 times Mr Universe 1988-90) and I reckon he would spot if my form was off, seems like there's conflicting information on the subject  

I think form aside it's common sense that your shoulders will come into play more than your chest a lot more at the lowest part of the repetition, as your whole chest is stretched back. Maybe it's cos my arms are too long!! Maybe you get most of the benefit to your chest even if you don't bring it all the way to your chest?

[pobrecito]

I'm just telling you what I do...physics tells us that the amount of work we do is directly proportional to the resistance and distance of the bar moved. So if you want the most stress on your upper body, go all the way to the chest. Do it in a slow, controlled manner and you should not have any problems.

Also, Charles Clairmonte had an amazing physique at the 93 Olympia. I thought he was screwed on his placing.

[JonBoy]

Cool, I'll try and go for more depth- I can do it ok up to 70kg, it's just with 75kg-80kg that I struggle with shoulder fatigue. (or whatever it is) Perhaps if I practice it more I'll start doing it better. I agree the full action will have more benefits! It is the way you're supposed to do it I know.

I heard about that with Charlie in 1993- he won 4 grand prix's that year as well! He deserved to finish higher- he was saying that with a lot of these events you pick your top 4 and your bottom 4 from the first showing and it's very hard to decide the people in the middle (like who's 12th and 13th!)- he was judging in a competition last week and had issues with this- he had barely anytime to decide. Maybe this had something to do with it!

[pumpster]

I agree the full action will have more benefits!

Not really; this is by the book stuff that most follow without questioning.

Several reasons to continue what you've found more effective:

-You're focusing on the sweet spot of the movement that hits the muscle better. Every exercise has it, should be focused on. Generally the sweet spot is not at the beginning or end of the movement. Cheats and partials, techniques that often expedite development and exaggerate beneficial stress on the muscle rather than the connective tissues, follow along the same lines of theory based on mid-ROM emphasis where the muscle has better mechanical advantage. At the end and beginning of ROM the muscle is in a weak position in relation to the stress shifted to the connective tissues. It's no accident that many pros don't use particularly strict form-they're shifting the stress away from the beginning and end points of ROM.

-In each exercise there are one or more areas of the ROM that exaggerate the negative stress on joints and ligaments while having minimal beneficial effects on the tissue-the exact opposite of what you want. In your case the bottom of the BP ROM; you've already noticed this in mentioning that including this is not effective for your chest. While it's possible that your form may be to blame, the more reasonable assumption is that your body's telling you something useful that shouldn't be ignored. For others, the same applies to dips and for most, the bottom of preacher curls & squats, which should be avoided.

-Constant tension-you're likely making fuller use of it by stopping short.


Try going all the way down but if you find the same effects-too much shoulder, too much potential strain on the joints, do not continue. Rather, continue with what works, baby.


Also try partial and full range ROM with DBs as well.

[JonBoy]

Not really; this is by the book stuff that most follow without questioning.

Several reasons to continue what you've found more effective:

-You're focusing on the sweet spot of the movement that hits the muscle better. Every exercise has it, should be focused on. Generally the sweet spot is not at the beginning or end of the movement. Cheats and partials, techniques that often expedite development and exaggerate beneficial stress on the muscle rather than the connective tissues, follow along the same lines of theory based on mid-ROM emphasis where the muscle has better mechanical advantage. At the end and beginning of ROM the muscle is in a weak position in relation to the stress shifted to the connective tissues.

-In each exercise there are one or more areas of the ROM that exaggerate the negative stress on joints and ligaments while having minimal beneficial effects on the tissue-the exact opposite of what you want. In your case the bottom of the BP ROM; you've already noticed this in mentioning that including this is not effective for your chest. While it's possible that your form may be to blame, the more reasonable assumption is that your body's telling you something useful that shouldn't be ignored. For others, the same applies to dips and for most, the bottom of preacher curls & squats, which should be avoided.

-Constant tension-you're likely making fuller use of it by stopping short.


Try going all the way down but if you find the same effects-too much shoulder, too much potential strain on the joints, do not continue. Rather, continue with what works, baby.
Try partial and full range ROM with DBs as well.

Thanks for your help! I do find that I'm not really working the chest at the lowest point, so maybe I'll try a bit more depth and see how the pain goes. I agree with you on dips - I find that if I go too low there is real strain and pain on my shoulder- not a healthy pain either. My trainer tells me again that you don't always need to go all the way to the bottom on dips as it can hyper-extend and cause injury, esp on the weak rotator cuffs.

Cheers again, i'll see how I go and do what works for me- as long as I am getting increase in size to my muscles I must be doing something right! Plus I trust Charlie's wisdom.

[pobrecito]

Cool, I'll try and go for more depth- I can do it ok up to 70kg, it's just with 75kg-80kg that I struggle with shoulder fatigue. (or whatever it is) Perhaps if I practice it more I'll start doing it better. I agree the full action will have more benefits! It is the way you're supposed to do it I know.

I heard about that with Charlie in 1993- he won 4 grand prix's that year as well! He deserved to finish higher- he was saying that with a lot of these events you pick your top 4 and your bottom 4 from the first showing and it's very hard to decide the people in the middle (like who's 12th and 13th!)- he was judging in a competition last week and had issues with this- he had barely anytime to decide. Maybe this had something to do with it!

Well, I believe that is a sign that your shoulders need to be strengthened.

Just look at Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, Kevin Levrone...all benched to the chest in a very controlled manner.

[texasRUSH]

for some people,especially those with longer arms, where there becomes a point in this movement that allmost all of the stress is on the shoulder joints and can be painful.  If it doesn't end up leading to injury...I say listen to your BODY and not the norm.  IF you're using good form with your shoulders back, hands the proper width, etc. and the bar doesn't touch your chest...WHO CARES! with proper form my bar is still 3inches off my chest! If I end up going any deeper, my elbows start to move UNDER my body instead of straight down...sorry but that's just asking for trouble imho.

and as some have stated before, if your shoulders are cutting out before your chest is, it's time to hit them hard and heavy to bring them up with your chest training!

[pumpster]

Well, I believe that is a sign that your shoulders need to be strengthened.

Just look at Ronnie Coleman, Dorian Yates, Kevin Levrone...all benched to the chest in a very controlled manner.

Not good advice, as it makes assumptions & generalizes. Some, like Bob Chick, have naturally bad shoulders; no amount of strengthening will help. In fact, it would be counter-productive as work's being directed into areas that are structurally weak. Nothing to do with development. Some/many are not destined to do conventional BB benches and should use variations like he is and/or DBs/cables/machines.

[texasRUSH]

just like if you're tri's are lagging...focusing on shoulders to help bring them up to full benefit FOR the purpose of benching can be done. BUT then again like you stated pumpster, what's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

[pumpster]

BUT then again like you stated pumpster, what's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

Ask Bob Chick about doing BB benches. I haven't done them in 20 years.

[JonBoy]

Also try partial and full range ROM with DBs as well.

It's strange as I don't have the same problem with DBs- I can get good depth on these with decent weights and don't have the same strain on the shoulders. Must be a physiological thing!

[Overload]

if you bench properly with a smooth arch and your shoulders blades back you will not be in a position for injury...

it's odd how someone who benches next to nothing and is getting trained by a top caliber bodybuilder would come to this board for benching advice.

good luck...

[pumpster]

It's strange as I don't have the same problem with DBs- I can get good depth on these with decent weights and don't have the same strain on the shoulders. Must be a physiological thing!

That's why you should use them if they work for you-it's not psychological. BBs create a fixed motion that can be hell on the shoulders; DBs allow for a flexible ROM, just as cables and some machines can.

[pobrecito]

Spoken like someone lacking perspectives, making assumptions about what the problem is. Some of us just have naturally bad shoulders; no amount of strenghtening will help. In fact, it's counter-productive as you're directing work onto areas that are structurally weak. Nothing to do with development. Some/many are not destined to do conventional BB benches and should use variations like he is and/or DBs/cables/machines.

I'm sorry you have poor genetics/bad stucture

"everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but don't nobody want to bench press"

The bottom line is, I don't buy the bullshit that people can't bench all the way down, it's a cop out just to use more weight/inflate ego.

Sitting in your chair right now, pull your arm/elbow back with your hand parallel to your chest and it should be pain free. If it isn't you should probably be seeing a doctor about some sort of injury.

Lower the weight and go all the way to the chest. I have nothing more to say on this matter.

[Overload]

It's strange as I don't have the same problem with DBs- I can get good depth on these with decent weights and don't have the same strain on the shoulders. Must be a physiological thing!

Your form is off...i promise you.

i have never seen someone have problems if they benched correctly. 90% of the population has no idea how to bench press.

[pumpster]

Can't agree with form as the main problem necessarily. Lowering heavy weight via a rigid metal bar is not a natural movement that can be hell on the hands and shoulders. Exactly why alternatives to the BB like the E-Z curl bar, exist.

[texasRUSH]

i'm with overload..find a coach or a seasoned powerlifter like i did and have them help you and check you out! form is key when moving heavier weights and getting stronger without any issues with injuries, etc.

[pumpster]

You guys are only considering one possibility, based on your own experiences.

That's aside from the fact that the ROM that works the muscle the best is the important thing, not what the books says about full ROM.

[JonBoy]

if you bench properly with a smooth arch and your shoulders blades back you will not be in a position for injury...

it's odd how someone who benches next to nothing and is getting trained by a top caliber bodybuilder would come to this board for benching advice.

good luck...

I've only been training for 1 year, and when I started I weighed 137 pounds and am 6 foot tall.

the only reason I asked was that other people I spoke to said you should go all the way to the chest, and wanted to get a second opinion other than Charlie's.

but sorry to bother you Overload!

I'm guessing that as the weight increases I will start to have less problem with depth- however I think that as i am tall/long-armed/long-legged that it does have an effect on things- not an excuse, just that it will be different.

And I totally agree that the area I feel the chest burn is the middle range, not the end/beginning range- I will work my shoulders properly another day, not too fussed about working it on chest day, regardless of what is "by the book"

[Overload]

i'm with overload..find a coach or a seasoned powerlifter like i did and have them help you and check you out! form is key when moving heavier weights and getting stronger without any issues with injuries, etc.

Exaclty...

i have trained so many beginners it's retarded...they all bitch about flat bench until i showed them a proper bench press setup. a few weeks later they were hitting personal bests with no pain.

pumpster - i agree with your advice for the most part but it's impossible to be sure without seeing this guy bench. same goes for my advice.

i have never had a shoulder injury and i handle pretty heavy weights. there is no book, there is a proper way to bench press but that is a matter of opinion i guess.

[texasRUSH]

i've had two shoulder fuckups so far..and have had to nit pick my shit til i'm blue in the face to tweak out the problems. I stated that i'd use proper form and let the body do the rest...if it stops short of touching the chest then that's where it will stop...if you use the right form, it's almost like wearing a shirt and your chest will stop expanding and your arms won't go down anymore.  Like you always suggest pumpster...go with what works for you.  You don't HAVE TO touch the chest..some people just physically can't.

[Overload]

I've only been training for 1 year, and when I started I weighed 137 pounds and am 6 foot tall.

the only reason I asked was that other people I spoke to said you should go all the way to the chest, and wanted to get a second opinion other than Charlie's.

but sorry to bother you Overload!

I'm guessing that as the weight increases I will start to have less problem with depth- however I think that as i am tall/long-armed/long-legged that it does have an effect on things- not an excuse, just that it will be different.

And I totally agree that the area I feel the chest burn is the middle range, not the end/beginning range- I will work my shoulders properly another day, not too fussed about working it on chest day, regardless of what is "by the book"

it's no problem

my point is i've never seen anyone have problems when they benched correctly and didn't use too much weight.