Author Topic: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God  (Read 12751 times)

DK II

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Re: TA why is there no god?
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2007, 03:15:49 AM »
Actually, Jesus was a real person... he may not have been God's "son", or even a Messiah of any sort, but he did truly exist as a human being at the least.

He is considered a prophet in the Muslim faith. (A lesser than Mohammed prophet, but a prophet none the less) The man did exist.

The Bible is just a book and it's pages were written by mere men... That's it. Nothing special there... It's no more a biography of the past than The Lord of The Rings was.

They are both works of fiction.



The difference is, LOTR was written by one man at one time, the bible is hearsaying of things that were 100 years earlier.
That there is much fiction to it is clearly visible by the fact that there are 4 different "evangelia", all with different content.


Necrosis

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Re: TA why is there no god?
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2007, 06:27:32 AM »
your last post is what i'm talking about!

actually last night i was watching something similar on the net, pretty good!
You see i like to know more about that possibility, not a book and a guy name jesus!

the first argument should be somewhat convincing that there exists a god or a intelligence that directed life.
i dont believe in the bible nor a religion as already stated. i beleive in a god. that is all, a god that doesnt need my praise, but it would benefit me to praise him. a god that is seperated from us, that cant or wont interact for many reasons.

anyway ill post some more evidence or arguments. if you can think of a more logical explanation let me know.

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Re: TA why is there no god?
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2007, 12:34:37 PM »
your last post is what i'm talking about!

actually last night i was watching something similar on the net, pretty good!
You see i like to know more about that possibility, not a book and a guy name jesus!

yes as do i, however i dont make pronouncements that what is in the bible may not be true. you dont know the truth and i dont. i have some plausible explanations which i think are correct.

hell cannot exist, it totally goes aganist a loving god. karma is a much better answer, we reap what we so, but cannot suffer for eternity.

ill post a thrid argument about the possiblity of god. let me know what you think.

ill post it later.

tu_holmes

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2007, 02:06:02 PM »
yes as do i, however i dont make pronouncements that what is in the bible may not be true. you dont know the truth and i dont. i have some plausible explanations which i think are correct.

hell cannot exist, it totally goes aganist a loving god. karma is a much better answer, we reap what we so, but cannot suffer for eternity.

ill post a thrid argument about the possiblity of god. let me know what you think.

ill post it later.

Stop asking about God... I'm right here... watching everything you type.

P.S... I think "W" is an idiot too... I didn't create that... no way in Hell.

Necrosis

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2007, 03:00:25 PM »
a thrid argument is one that i always post, and is really the only logical conclusion.

QUESTION "why is there something insted of nothing"

that is why is there anything at all? it is just as likely that nothing could exist.


here is the argument

for anything to exist something must exist for which its essence(purpose) is to exist(back to contingencies).

nothing can never ever produce something even if given eternity. nothing has no laws, no rules, no potential the word nothign literally means nothing.if given forever nothing wouldnt create something. this then leads into the logical conclusion, that something has always existed. what does that mean?

well we know this universe had a beginning called a singularity the big bang. and that time actually was created, as strange as it may sound. therefore what ever came before the big bang, obviously the word "created" implies a preclude, that is time was created, but from what?

so everything there is and ever will be has always existed, something has always existed, it is eternal.

however, if everything needs to be created what created the first thing or god.

cause, as in the first cause is a temporal factor, that is cause and effect exist because of time. time had a beginning anything before time doesnt operate with cause and effect, time doesnt exist. also, if everything needs a cause, then you would have an infinite regression of causes, thus nothing would exist, because everything would need a prior cause. so from above something has always existed, and that primary thing is timeless or uncaused because of the above arguement.

this logically answers the questions the usually come. what created the primary thing or god. this is already answered, cause is a problem of time, without time cause does not exist. also, the primary thing or god must be uncaused for anything to exist because if there was no uncaused cause, there would always have to be a prior cause and existence wouldnt be here.

so matter needs a cause(the big bang), anything unmaterial does not, that is anythign before time.

from all the above logic you can defer that:
-what ever caused existence is timeless and has always existed
-it is immaterial
-all powerful(it created everything)
-supernatural(above the laws, or outside is all this means, not fire breathing)
-it is uncaused or eternal, similar to above
-and its existence is necessary for anything to exist, it creates.

if you say previous universes existed, your just delaying the question of what caused those universes? they would have to be timeless, and immaterial and the propagate of other universes. sounds like god to me.

ill post another gem tommorrow ;D for all the non-beleiving atheists. if your open minded i dont see how all the arugments i am going to present cant convince you of at least a deity. if they dont id like to hear why my logic is flawed, or any counters.

Hedgehog

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2007, 03:15:24 PM »
The burden of proof in this discussion, is always on the person claiming there is a God.

Because without evidence, you have nothing.

You may believe there is a God, but we cannot ask people to prove there is NO God.

Because first we need to prove there is.

-Hedge
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Necrosis

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2007, 03:31:49 PM »
The burden of proof in this discussion, is always on the person claiming there is a God.

Because without evidence, you have nothing.

You may believe there is a God, but we cannot ask people to prove there is NO God.

Because first we need to prove there is.

-Hedge


im in the process of doing that. i will try to answer all of the questions.

1)ive already shown that information can only come from intelligence. DNA is intelligence, this argument alone should prove intelligence began life, theres no way around it. using information theory its a perfect example.

2)only intelligence could fine tune the earth

3)something exists rather then nothing because something exists whos essence is too exist

ill post more but if you just say nah to the arguments your mind is closed. a deity is highly more probable then random chance and ill put a few more arguments out there, that i feel are evidence of god.

i cant convince the hardened skeptic, they will need to see god. but hedge as you know if we could see god for certain life would be pointless.

Ursus

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2007, 09:06:48 AM »
the fact that god cant be disproved is enough for most people.

i believe stronglky in god and have had many experiences where i believe this can be backed up. in mass or wehen i pray or think about god  my head goes very tingly and feels as tho some one is touching it. this is sed to be the holy spirit coming uopn us. its happening now. its a nice soothing feeling which gives comfort its not scary or invasive.

miracles are also estremnly hard to expolkain except god.

beatmaster

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2007, 10:17:33 AM »

what kills me the most is when preachers pretended they recieved messages from god!

medium and all the other bullshiters, saying they speak for god.
like i said before, their is a place in the us : they give you one million dollards if you can come up with any proof about anything out of the ordinary, god, meduim, ufo ........ anything, funny thing is no one showed up yet!!!

any gods, are man made up......... simple.

conception of the univers or anything else is a different story (bible = story)
are you delusional?

Necrosis

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2007, 11:25:35 AM »
what kills me the most is when preachers pretended they recieved messages from god!

medium and all the other bullshiters, saying they speak for god.
like i said before, their is a place in the us : they give you one million dollards if you can come up with any proof about anything out of the ordinary, god, meduim, ufo ........ anything, funny thing is no one showed up yet!!!

any gods, are man made up......... simple.

conception of the univers or anything else is a different story (bible = story)

randi millions is what your referring too. he doesnt take stats, and he sets up the contest or experiment himself, wants ridiculous alpha levels and odds. he has already said publicy, along with dawkins that he would soon have to give up his money based on alll the research and data on telepathy. any of those types of challenges are hoaxes, do you know theres a million dollar challenge to disprove the data? well there is guess what no one has guess its reality hey. being ignorant to the research is no excuse, its more reliable then anti depressant research for gods sake.

beatmaster dont my arguments make you think. i mean you seem to just want to beleive in no god. the god of the bible might not exist, but a willful being does imo. i dont see how he/she couldnt. ill post another argument.

TELEPATHY IS A FACT. i have tons of research proving it. if you want to deny the research thats fine, but its just ignorance. sheldrake has undeniable data that can be repeated.

goudy, you cant prove the negative, if anyone beleives in god because theres no proof against him then they are meatbags. you cant prove theres a man dressed in blue on the moon who sells sausages, guess we should beleive in him too. the reason alot of people beleive in god is they have an internal intuition, the "there has to be" when things go wrong, kids without a religious up bringing prey to god, its in us. why? i beleive because there is.

haider

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Re: TA why is there no god?
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2007, 07:10:59 PM »
i have no problem answering questions, however it might be a bit long.

the first question is hard to answer. ill try though. if there was a god, an all powerful perfect creature why would he create? if you say to admire work, children etc that is saying that god has needs hence he is not perfect. so i beleive this question is the paramount. so logically (this comes from haish's book, the god theory(zero point fields)) and some of the book conversations with god that god creates because his purpose is to create/exist. everything has a contingency a reason(aquinas) gods is for anything to exist, he is necessary to exsist and his essence is too exist. however, being perfect and infinite you cannot experience yourself, polarity black/white male/female is needed for you to experience something. you know you exist becasue of the internal reality vs external. therefore the purpose of us is for god to experience himself. he creates us to experience realty, we are god. we are the body but not the god head. there is a difference. we are not the ultimate perfection but the manifest inperfection that is needed for experience.

perfection cannot experience itself only imperfection. infinite cannot experience itself only finite. therefore from everything god created this something.

this fits with multiverse theory, many universes equals more experiences and gradual evolution. everything both matter and consciousnous is experience.

now, back to is god important in my life? to be honest im not done forming my opinion. however, god cares about himself therefore cares about me. but morality tends to lead me to believe that god has a reason for the creation or experience, morality is gods way of telling us how to live, what is correct. through the creation he experiences himself but morality shows me that there is a purpose for this experience.

now from some physics the universe is really just all one thing,everything is connected(entanglment) this again shows me there is one reality, one chief thing(god) that there is only god. however, im not buddhist.

i pray but i dont have any particular practices that i do to aid beleif.

the rules i follow are simple, i do the right things. morality has given us an internal sense of right and wrong. when i see someone looking for some money for food, everyone knows when they pass by you justify the reason for not helping etc, there is dissonance. i just try to do what would or should be right.

i also draw some of my stuff from parapsychology because psychology is what my education is in. the messages from ndes all over the world are always oneness, and love, and purpose. i beleive love is one of the goals of life. i do actually beleive in alot of what jesus said/did.

my views havent been completely finished cemented yet. im still reading and trying to answer questions.

ive read alot of books and articles on religion,science etc and that is were my ideas come from. ive really just taken the best principles and the most logical ideas from alot of more intelligent people and tried to integrate them.

sorry for the clusterfuck of ideas the question is hard to answer without me going into alot more information.

there are reasons i beleive in divinity, if you want i can list some of them. any other questions or objections let em fly. im open to new ideas, because mine arent finished yet.


appreciatte the long reply bro, sorry couldnt get to it earlier. Definitely learned some new things here- some stuff seemed vague but after carefully re reading I think I have grabbed on to most of the stuff. I'll definitely have more questions later! Thanks.
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Re: TA why is there no god?
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2007, 07:34:45 AM »
appreciatte the long reply bro, sorry couldnt get to it earlier. Definitely learned some new things here- some stuff seemed vague but after carefully re reading I think I have grabbed on to most of the stuff. I'll definitely have more questions later! Thanks.

np at all.

Count Grishnackh

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2007, 07:45:23 AM »
The burden of proof in this discussion, is always on the person claiming there is a God.

Because without evidence, you have nothing.

You may believe there is a God, but we cannot ask people to prove there is NO God.

Because first we need to prove there is.

-Hedge


Exactly


Necrosis

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2007, 06:33:31 PM »
Exactly



i dont understand what this his comment even has to do with me providing evidence for belief i never asked him nor anyone to prove the negative.

haider

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2007, 03:02:17 PM »
Could you comment on the oneness of God (as in Islam and judeo-christian beleifs) or the presence of many gods who collectively made the universe? Do you think one can argue logically for one side or the other? Thanks.
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Necrosis

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2007, 07:17:47 PM »
there can only be one god. it doesnt make logical sense that many gods exist, well not good logic ;D. something has to be the primary.


put another way, something has to exist  that is necessary to exist(from the earlier argument about something rather then nothing) for anything to exist. something has to be primary. if you say other gods exist, one of them would have to be the primary god that creates the others. multiple things cannot exist that are necessary to exist. this implys there essence is to exist, which means they have the same purpose and are by definition the same thing.

some one posed this question to me a different way, why cant god be the child of another. i suppose thinking about it, it is possible in a sense. but think of it this way. if you say god have a father, then who is his father? something has to be the uncaused cause, that is, something has to exist to which it cannot exist, it is necessary for anything to exist.

if everything needed a first cause, nothing would exist. you would have an infinite regression of first causes.that is you could always say , "what caused that then". but if this were the case then nothing would exist, because everything needs a first cause, but this cannot be logically true for the above reason. so one thing has to exist that is the primary, neccesity for anything to exist.

you could argue that multiple things exist which are necessary but this has alot of contradictions and fallacies.

the oneness thing is interesting. everything in our reality is actually one, it is a scientific fact, ill be it a controversial one.

in physics there is a principle called entanglement(interesting read) that shows that when two photons interact they become entangled such that the actio of one photon effects the other regardless of distance and instantaneously(this opens up  many philosophical doors by the way). so experiemnts have shown(the slit experiment is the most famous) that this is actually the case, that photons relay info to each other regardless of space and act as if they are the same thing even though they are clearly seperate. now the imp thing is that they have to come into contact. however, thanks to the big bang(the singularity) everything in this universe was once all together in a tiny spot called the singularity. this is called phase entanglement, and holds that every photon in this universe, every electron was once together, showing that the universe is in fact one giant thing. a thing in which actions on our planet effect actions are the other end of the universe. everything literally is one. i hold that everything is god, we are god, and this fits exactly with that. we are part of the primary thing, the infinite the only oneness there is.

the oneness side holds with basic philosophical logic and most major religions, and actually is being proven through science. everything has to go back to ONE thing, and if this one thing created many things it is still a component of that ONE thing.

everything is ONE i firmly beleive this.

any other questions fire away. or if you want clarification, some of my writing is a little all over the place. ahaha

Necrosis

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2007, 07:21:05 PM »
think of it another way which is a little clearer looking at it. there has to be a basic parent, the offspring may be different but are made from the parent. everything can be traced back to that one thing. polygodism is not a strong argument at all, it baffles logic, and you have to look at god interactions, why multiple things exist and how they enfold realty together, and causes.

tu_holmes

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2007, 07:27:51 PM »
If you think of it from a scientoligist perspective, where God is not a person, but a race of beings... The idea of many different Gods would make sense.

It would also make sense as to why earlier civilizations such as the Roman's, Greeks, and Celts had many gods for so many things.

Not that you or I believe in any of that stuff... It just makes you think.

Necrosis

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2007, 10:50:55 AM »
If you think of it from a scientoligist perspective, where God is not a person, but a race of beings... The idea of many different Gods would make sense.

It would also make sense as to why earlier civilizations such as the Roman's, Greeks, and Celts had many gods for so many things.

Not that you or I believe in any of that stuff... It just makes you think.

it is harder to argue, only one thing can be eternal and infinite, you cant have multiple infinities.

scientoligy is for retards.


i dont beleive in god for my benefit, it is the real only logical conclusion. he could not give a shit about me, or many other things, a eternal infinite has to exist, and its purpose to create. if it has needs then it is not all powerful, and also indicates a purpose for creating in the first place.

haider

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2007, 01:16:12 PM »
there can only be one god. it doesnt make logical sense that many gods exist, well not good logic ;D. something has to be the primary.


put another way, something has to exist  that is necessary to exist(from the earlier argument about something rather then nothing) for anything to exist. something has to be primary. if you say other gods exist, one of them would have to be the primary god that creates the others. multiple things cannot exist that are necessary to exist. this implys there essence is to exist, which means they have the same purpose and are by definition the same thing.
Who is to say that there isn't a "higher" existence that exists beyond our realm? Maybe these "higher" beings created us? It doesn't do away with God but acknowledges our uncertainty as to we came into being, hence the alternative possibilites. I guess then what could be said is that the "higher beings" that created the universe would have to exist because of God in the first place, so in essence we're only nesting the god problem and not doing away with God.

Quote
some one posed this question to me a different way, why cant god be the child of another. i suppose thinking about it, it is possible in a sense. but think of it this way. if you say god have a father, then who is his father? something has to be the uncaused cause, that is, something has to exist to which it cannot exist, it is necessary for anything to exist.

if everything needed a first cause, nothing would exist. you would have an infinite regression of first causes.that is you could always say , "what caused that then". but if this were the case then nothing would exist, because everything needs a first cause, but this cannot be logically true for the above reason. so one thing has to exist that is the primary, neccesity for anything to exist.
Makes sense.

Quote
you could argue that multiple things exist which are necessary but this has alot of contradictions and fallacies.

the oneness thing is interesting. everything in our reality is actually one, it is a scientific fact, ill be it a controversial one.

in physics there is a principle called entanglement(interesting read) that shows that when two photons interact they become entangled such that the actio of one photon effects the other regardless of distance and instantaneously(this opens up  many philosophical doors by the way). so experiemnts have shown(the slit experiment is the most famous) that this is actually the case, that photons relay info to each other regardless of space and act as if they are the same thing even though they are clearly seperate. now the imp thing is that they have to come into contact. however, thanks to the big bang(the singularity) everything in this universe was once all together in a tiny spot called the singularity. this is called phase entanglement, and holds that every photon in this universe, every electron was once together, showing that the universe is in fact one giant thing. a thing in which actions on our planet effect actions are the other end of the universe. everything literally is one. i hold that everything is god, we are god, and this fits exactly with that. we are part of the primary thing, the infinite the only oneness there is.
I follow you until you start saying that singularity is tied in with God, or maybe Im misreading your point. Other views that I have read about describe God as existing in a different dimention, and in no way tied to our reality except that he brought it into existence. This also explains why it is hard for us to imagine an infinite and eternal God, since he exists outside of time and matter. It's actually pretty confusing to me so maybe you could fill me in on this.

Quote
the oneness side holds with basic philosophical logic and most major religions, and actually is being proven through science. everything has to go back to ONE thing, and if this one thing created many things it is still a component of that ONE thing.

everything is ONE i firmly beleive this.

any other questions fire away. or if you want clarification, some of my writing is a little all over the place. ahaha
Is this why we think of the everything as part of the "universe"? Singularity ties everything in existence to the universe (thinking of it as a whole rather than random things existing in non-existence), so even though there's no boundaries to the "universe", we think of it as one- this singularity is the universe. I'm not sure if u're following me but that just occured to me as I was typing up the reply ;)
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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2007, 07:34:35 PM »
Who is to say that there isn't a "higher" existence that exists beyond our realm? Maybe these "higher" beings created us? It doesn't do away with God but acknowledges our uncertainty as to we came into being, hence the alternative possibilites. I guess then what could be said is that the "higher beings" that created the universe would have to exist because of God in the first place, so in essence we're only nesting the god problem and not doing away with God.

there is and could be. but we couldnt comment on that. we dont know what infinite truly is nor eternal. we cannot know what it is like to be "outside" of time because we are immersed in this dimension. other dimensions with totally different properties may exist(string theory points to this) but we cannot intelligently comment on them. something we cannot experience or that is foreign is hard to argue, as ready examples are immenent.

what would you call these higher beings that create life? that can create organic materials? that would be some peoples definition of gods. the thing is, we cant know the characteristics of GOD. we as finite creatures cannot know infinite, we always place a boundary on it, trying to enclose something that is not enclosed. therefore, any attributes that we DO and DO NOT ascribe to god are wrong. he/she/it could very well have needs but thats not the depiction most major religions create. there could have been multiple creative creatures, but that just pushes the question back as to how they came, and if they are eternal and infinite then they are god, or gods by definition.

higher beings could have created us, a giant sausage could of, i dont know what god is, looks like etc etc. i know though from logic that something has to be infinite and eternal and create. the other alternative is that this universe is eternal by passing the creation(atheism), but science shows time had a beginning, and that the universe will end, hence not eternal.


I follow you until you start saying that singularity is tied in with God, or maybe Im misreading your point. Other views that I have read about describe God as existing in a different dimention, and in no way tied to our reality except that he brought it into existence. This also explains why it is hard for us to imagine an infinite and eternal God, since he exists outside of time and matter. It's actually pretty confusing to me so maybe you could fill me in on this.


i contend we are god/gods but not god. ken wilber is a good philosopher on the GODHEAD and such. there is the ultimate perfection which is god, then there is the finite inperfection which is god manifest to experience himself. from my earlier posts you know my beleifs.so at the beginning of time(i dont know how to not use time, but it is wrong) god is all there is. this is logical, if god created, this implies he was before the creation. if you are all that exists, you cannot experience yourself, polarity(black/white) defines experience. so god created, or has to create to be god, to experience god, to exist. there has to be something other then god for god to know he is god. so god is perfect and infinite. how can you experience infinite, it is boundless. the answer is you cant. how can you experience perfection? you cant, its perfect. so god creates finite(our existence, and many others imo) to experience infinite. because if you know what it means to be finite, you then can experience your infite. god also created this imperfection to experience perfection, same logic as above.

so based on all this logic, i made some of my own conclusions. we, the universe are part of god, the imperfect, finite part(not the godhead perfect, infinite part). so you would expect that if we are part of this THING then in the actual primary reality we are all part of one giant thing, god. and this is exactly what we find. we are god experiencing himself, but not the theres the other side to god, the side we are not at the moment, the infinite and perfect. so our universe is god, god is in the universe but not like the religious god, or as an active part, but the unverse is god. follow? its a little confusing but the logic is so simplistic it smacks of truth( truth is always simple).

so when you read in the bible, koran that god is closer then your jugular, or knows your every thought, this is literally true. how? because your god, he knows what you know because it his him. you know your thoughts. you can know your every move. but you cannot know anothers because they are seperate. seperation is only an illusion, god is all, therefore god knows everything, always, everywere.

so there is two gods if that makes it easier, but they are the same god.

theres the head(perfect) and the body(us) but they are the same thing, just seperated. this is like what people in deep meditation say, they feel lke they are everything, that they are boundless. this is true, this is the true realtiy.however, if we knew that, we could not experience ourselves, nor could god, making it pointless. thus, we cant know so we can experience.

sorry for the long post bro, im trying to make it clearer.


Is this why we think of the everything as part of the "universe"? Singularity ties everything in existence to the universe (thinking of it as a whole rather than random things existing in non-existence), so even though there's no boundaries to the "universe", we think of it as one- this singularity is the universe. I'm not sure if u're following me but that just occured to me as I was typing up the reply ;)


haha, i dont follow you lol. ;D. the singularity is a event, the beginning of the big bang as far as we know. it is the point were we cant go back any further. it is the point were the laws break down and our calculations fail. it is a real problem in cosmology.

clarify your point if you can, i think i get what your saying, but i dont want to mis-interpret you.

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2007, 07:44:59 PM »

I follow you until you start saying that singularity is tied in with God, or maybe Im misreading your point. Other views that I have read about describe God as existing in a different dimention, and in no way tied to our reality except that he brought it into existence. This also explains why it is hard for us to imagine an infinite and eternal God, since he exists outside of time and matter. It's actually pretty confusing to me so maybe you could fill me in on this.


i think i answered the second part above, but it could be done better. he does exist outside of time and matter. and your right that is why we cant know god, or even fathom what it is. and he is not "IN" our universe pulling strings and spinning the world and doing miracles. he is in it, because we are in it. but he is outside as well just as his true reality.

so there are two realities, but one is the primary. the one we are in(our reality) and gods reality(outside). the outside one is the true reality, god is all there is, the creation is a part of god.

so my point about everything in the universe being one, was just to show that we are all the same thing, everything is part of the same thing. the ONE. physics shows this, buddism, hindu, theism also talks about this.

the problem with explaining it is i keep having to us words like we and us. but im trying to say that there is no we and us, just god.

the problem is seperation is so apparent and a part of life like time, i cant nor can anyone, describe something without referring to it.

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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2007, 04:57:15 PM »
holy shit  :o Appreciatte the LONG ass replies dude, I will read the above mroe carefully to comment on them, but before that I gotta get done with all this homework I got (I go to uni).

And before I go lemme just clarify what I was saying, I'm nto sure how much I will be able to do that considering I could be dead wrong about what Im saying.

Is this why we think of the everything as part of the "universe"? Singularity ties everything in existence to the universe (thinking of it as a whole rather than random things existing in non-existence), so even though there's no boundaries to the "universe", we think of it as one- this singularity is the universe. I'm not sure if u're following me but that just occured to me as I was typing up the reply ;)
What I mean to say is that we think of the "universe" (all matter that exists) as having bounds (boundary between existence and non-existence? Im not so sure). Because of the fact that the universe isnt eternal, and singularity tells us that all matter originates from a single infinestmally small point, it means that matter doesnt exist independently (duh? yes). Without singularity I dont know how you would define the universe, especially a universe having bounds.

Probably a very redundant explanation of something obvious to teh smart ones  ;D
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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2007, 02:29:01 PM »
there is and could be. but we couldnt comment on that. we dont know what infinite truly is nor eternal. we cannot know what it is like to be "outside" of time because we are immersed in this dimension. other dimensions with totally different properties may exist(string theory points to this) but we cannot intelligently comment on them. something we cannot experience or that is foreign is hard to argue, as ready examples are immenent.

what would you call these higher beings that create life? that can create organic materials? that would be some peoples definition of gods. the thing is, we cant know the characteristics of GOD. we as finite creatures cannot know infinite, we always place a boundary on it, trying to enclose something that is not enclosed. therefore, any attributes that we DO and DO NOT ascribe to god are wrong. he/she/it could very well have needs but thats not the depiction most major religions create. there could have been multiple creative creatures, but that just pushes the question back as to how they came,and if they are eternal and infinite then they are god, or gods by definition.

 higher beings could have created us, a giant sausage could of, i dont know what god is, looks like etc etc. i know though from logic that something has to be infinite and eternal and create. the other alternative is that this universe is eternal by passing the creation(atheism), but science shows time had a beginning, and that the universe will end, hence not eternal.
So you agree there could be more gods, eternal entities whose purpose is to create, just tht it doesn't make sense for multiple gods to exist, therefore it is unlikely.


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i contend we are god/gods but not god. ken wilber is a good philosopher on the GODHEAD and such. there is the ultimate perfection which is god, then there is the finite inperfection which is god manifest to experience himself. from my earlier posts you know my beleifs.so at the beginning of time(i dont know how to not use time, but it is wrong) god is all there is. this is logical, if god created, this implies he was before the creation. if you are all that exists, you cannot experience yourself, polarity(black/white) defines experience. so god created, or has to create to be god, to experience god, to exist. there has to be something other then god for god to know he is god. so god is perfect and infinite. how can you experience infinite, it is boundless. the answer is you cant. how can you experience perfection? you cant, its perfect. so god creates finite(our existence, and many others imo) to experience infinite. because if you know what it means to be finite, you then can experience your infite. god also created this imperfection to experience perfection, same logic as above.
This is gonna be long ;D There's several things that are unclear and seem arbitrary. So before matter and time existed, and only God was there, then how did God create time and matter if he couldn't experience himself? Or does it not require some sort of sentience for matter, let alone intelligent design, to exist?

Why can't perfection experience itself? What is perfection and imperfection? This is not understood as easily as finite vs infinite, so I'm still a little lost.

Again, appreciatte the time u put into the replies, and I really enjoy having this conv with someone who knows what he is talking about. Right now I gotta go workout so I'll be back posting a bit more later.
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Re: DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2007, 06:31:42 AM »
So you agree there could be more gods, eternal entities whose purpose is to create, just tht it doesn't make sense for multiple gods to exist, therefore it is unlikely.



it is possible i cant really argue against it. although if your thinking the greek gods of thunder and lightning that is false. we know what creates thunder when it happens, it is a natural process that needs no god(S). Why are we here, what is the purpose? how did this begin? still unanswered and from science it seems like we cannot know, ever, hence the position of a god is still logical.



This is gonna be long ;D There's several things that are unclear and seem arbitrary. So before matter and time existed, and only God was there, then how did God create time and matter if he couldn't experience himself? Or does it not require some sort of sentience for matter, let alone intelligent design, to exist?

Why can't perfection experience itself? What is perfection and imperfection? This is not understood as easily as finite vs infinite, so I'm still a little lost.

Again, appreciatte the time u put into the replies, and I really enjoy having this conv with someone who knows what he is talking about. Right now I gotta go workout so I'll be back posting a bit more later.

im not sure if i follow you on the first response. if your asking how god creates then your geuss is as good as mine. there is no way anyone would know that unless of course they are god.


perfection is:
-Perfection is a state of flawlessness. Something is called perfect when it has no flaws, or when it comes very close to this ideal.
-the state of being without a flaw or defect

so i ask you how do you know or experience something? polarity. this world is full of polarity. would you know your male if no female existed? NO you wouldn't.

so perfection a state without flaw has no polarity. what is there to compare it too? imperfection expresses polarity, the fact that your not perfect shows you or allows you to know what you need to work on. perfection doesnt allow this. there is no polarity, how can there be, if there was then wouldnt that thing be imperfect?

imperfection is just the opposite of perfection, it has imperfections. that is, there is something wrong with it, something it can improve upon. how can perfect improve, how can it work on something. how can you experience something that has no polarity.pure perfection is impossible in this world becaue there are always improvments, always a polarity, a different thing you need to obtain.

hopefully that clears it up. but you cant conceptualize perfection, neither can i, it doesnt exist in this world. so its hard to fathom, just like nothing is hard to fathom.

and the only way to describe it is to use comparison(polarity agian). i dont know what infinite IS, but can form a working definition based on finite. we have to use polarity.