DEBATE - Evidence for/against a Deity or God

[Necrosis]

True Adonis as per the debate i will refrain from the personal attacks if you do.

ill let you start. what arguments are there against the exsistence of a god, not a christian god, not a islamic god. a deity, a cosmic intelligence. why is secular humanism correct.

[DK II]

True Adonis as per the debate i will refrain from the personal attacks if you do.

ill let you start. what arguments are there against the exsistence of a god, not a christian god, not a islamic god. a deity, a cosmic intelligence. why is secular humanism correct.

The one argument why there is no god is because there is no proof that there is one.

[Necrosis]

The one argument why there is no god is because there is no proof that there is one.

yes there is would you like some.

[ToxicAvenger]

True Adonis as per the debate i will refrain from the personal attacks if you do.

ill let you start. what arguments are there against the exsistence of a god, not a christian god, not a islamic god. a deity, a cosmic intelligence. why is secular humanism correct.

athiesm is faith based just as much as religion is...


and thats coming from an athiest..i'm just an athiest up untill proven wrong..i have an open mind..

[DK II]

yes there is would you like some.

aahahahaaaaaaa, lmao.  kiss my ass. 

 

[Necrosis]

athiesm is faith based just as much as religion is...


and thats coming from an athiest..i'm just an athiest up untill proven wrong..i have an open mind..

i agree.

yes but im just making a point that people like adonis and NasscisicDeity are clowns who wont dare open there mouths lest they be exposed as ignorant.

but yet they have attacked my intelligence for my beleif but wont back up what they say, it just shows me that they shouldnt call themselves atheists, they havent thought enough about it.

i have no problem with atheists, at all, i know many atheists who are very smart and have good reasons for there disbelief.

[Necrosis]

aahahahaaaaaaa, lmao.  kiss my ass. 

 

ill pm bay about it

[DK II]

ill pm bay about it

usmokepole. 

[Necrosis]

usmokepole. 

i choose a bad handle while smashed i suppose i could start another one. but im too lazy.

[ToxicAvenger]

i agree.

yes but im just making a point that people like adonis and NasscisicDeity are clowns who wont dare open there mouths lest they be exposed as ignorant.

but yet they have attacked my intelligence for my beleif but wont back up what they say, it just shows me that they shouldnt call themselves atheists, they havent thought enough about it.

i have no problem with atheists, at all, i know many atheists who are very smart and have good reasons for there disbelief.

an athiest that goes around making fun of people under a superiority complex has actually deep seated self esteem issues and just dont even know what he/she believse

[Necrosis]

an athiest that goes around making fun of people under a superiority complex has actually deep seated self esteem issues and just dont even know what he/she believse

yes i agree, i dont think that either theism or atheism is a matter of intellect. theres only faith and how can you condem someone for haiving a different faith? you cant i dont know if theres a god, i beleive there is, but i dont know for certain in the end.

[haider]

usmokepole (epic screenname btw), I know u dont adhere to a particular religion, yet u believe in God (not that there aren't other examples of this). So I have some questions for you: In your belief, is the existence of God consequential to your life? (not just mere existence) And with that follow other questions, such as what principles/beliefs u adhere to that u believe make ur life more "proper" or meaningful. The second question maybe a bit loaded, and I apologise if that is the case. I'll be happy if u can answer those questions, even if your answers are short. Whatever u deem appropriatte. And please, if u can provide with some links, that would be great and much appreciatted.

[Necrosis]

usmokepole (epic screenname btw), I know u dont adhere to a particular religion, yet u believe in God (not that there aren't other examples of this). So I have some questions for you: In your belief, is the existence of God consequential to your life? (not just mere existence) And with that follow other questions, such as what principles/beliefs u adhere to that u believe make ur life more "proper" or meaningful. The second question maybe a bit loaded, and I apologise if that is the case. I'll be happy if u can answer those questions, even if your answers are short. Whatever u deem appropriatte. And please, if u can provide with some links, that would be great and much appreciatted.

i have no problem answering questions, however it might be a bit long.

the first question is hard to answer. ill try though. if there was a god, an all powerful perfect creature why would he create? if you say to admire work, children etc that is saying that god has needs hence he is not perfect. so i beleive this question is the paramount. so logically (this comes from haish's book, the god theory(zero point fields)) and some of the book conversations with god that god creates because his purpose is to create/exist. everything has a contingency a reason(aquinas) gods is for anything to exist, he is necessary to exsist and his essence is too exist. however, being perfect and infinite you cannot experience yourself, polarity black/white male/female is needed for you to experience something. you know you exist becasue of the internal reality vs external. therefore the purpose of us is for god to experience himself. he creates us to experience realty, we are god. we are the body but not the god head. there is a difference. we are not the ultimate perfection but the manifest inperfection that is needed for experience.

perfection cannot experience itself only imperfection. infinite cannot experience itself only finite. therefore from everything god created this something.

this fits with multiverse theory, many universes equals more experiences and gradual evolution. everything both matter and consciousnous is experience.

now, back to is god important in my life? to be honest im not done forming my opinion. however, god cares about himself therefore cares about me. but morality tends to lead me to believe that god has a reason for the creation or experience, morality is gods way of telling us how to live, what is correct. through the creation he experiences himself but morality shows me that there is a purpose for this experience.

now from some physics the universe is really just all one thing,everything is connected(entanglment) this again shows me there is one reality, one chief thing(god) that there is only god. however, im not buddhist.

i pray but i dont have any particular practices that i do to aid beleif.

the rules i follow are simple, i do the right things. morality has given us an internal sense of right and wrong. when i see someone looking for some money for food, everyone knows when they pass by you justify the reason for not helping etc, there is dissonance. i just try to do what would or should be right.

i also draw some of my stuff from parapsychology because psychology is what my education is in. the messages from ndes all over the world are always oneness, and love, and purpose. i beleive love is one of the goals of life. i do actually beleive in alot of what jesus said/did.

my views havent been completely finished cemented yet. im still reading and trying to answer questions.

ive read alot of books and articles on religion,science etc and that is were my ideas come from. ive really just taken the best principles and the most logical ideas from alot of more intelligent people and tried to integrate them.

sorry for the clusterfuck of ideas the question is hard to answer without me going into alot more information.

there are reasons i beleive in divinity, if you want i can list some of them. any other questions or objections let em fly. im open to new ideas, because mine arent finished yet.

[Necrosis]

there are alot of books and articles i read to from my opinions. and to be honest a many conversations with a very smart atheist formed my opinions. anytime i said something that wasnt rational i heard about it, that helped me out alot.

i can post links to some of the books if you want.

the best book i ever read was wonder of the world by varghese. it converted antony flew. if you beleive in god you should really read that book. its amazing with awesome arguments and questions.

[beatmaster]

yes there is would you like some.

please do so......... real prove!

[Necrosis]

please do so......... real prove!

haha what do you mean by real proof. do you mean that 1+1=2 or logical best answer in relation to the options proof.

i can offer one 1+1=2 at the moment and many logical answers.

for the first one
visit this website
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/iidb.htm


he posted the info on the worlds largest atheist board and won the argument.
it goes like this, however a good understanding of information theory is needed.

information can only come from intelligence. that is instructions or information are independent of the media which convey them. a paper and pen do not convey the message the information created by the pen and paper contain the info. a snowflake is an example of organization in nature, however there is no blueprint to make the snowflake, you cannot look at the hydrogen bonds and decipher how to create a snowflake and no template exists. intelligence is the only thing that can create information, computers are great examples of this the binary 1 and 0 in themselves are useless, but the sequence forms information for programs and software.

DNA is a information system with encoding and decoding systems. the c,t,a,g are like letters of the alphabet that code the instructions on how to make every living organism. the c,t,a,g mean nothing, but the arrangement contains information on how to make a human, or a pig or a cow. DNA contains information. since information can only come from intelligence, DNA was created by intelligence. the decoding encoding system is more complicated and better explained by marshall then i would be able to do. there is only one system that we know of that contains information, DNA.

now this could be aliens or god, but the information has to come from somewere. this is a very obvious and soundproof argument.

the argument is somewhat expoused in yockley's book were the bulk of the info comes from.

i think ill change this thread into arguments for god. something interesting. any atheists feel free to argue, or anyone who sees a problem with my logic.

[Necrosis]

a second argument comes from the fine tuning of the universe, the anthropic nature of the universe.

here are just a few

The nuclear strong force holds together the particles in the nucleus of an atom. If the strong nuclear force were 2% (9% according to Bradley, 50% according to Collins) weaker, multi-proton nuclei would not hold together and hydrogen would be the only stable element in the universe. If the strong force were 1% stronger, hydrogen would rapidly fuse into helium-2; it is also argued that elements heavier than iron would be rare, since they result from fusion during the explosion of supernovae. Collins disputes this on the grounds that the helium-2 would rapidly decay into deuterium which could then fuse into helium-4, but has claimed that this increase would drastically decrease the amount of oxygen (relative to carbon) in the Universe (and that a decrease would have the reverse effect).

The nuclear weak force affects the behavior of leptons (e.g. neutrinos, electrons, and muons), which do not participate in strong nuclear reactions. Bradley has argued that if the weak force were slightly larger, neutrons would decay more readily, and therefore would be less available, and little or no helium would be produced from the big bang. Without the necessary helium, heavy elements such as carbon could not be made by the nuclear furnaces inside stars. Conversely, he and Collins argue, if the weak force were slightly smaller, the big bang would burn most or all of the hydrogen into helium, which would make hydrogen-containing molecules rare, and shorten the lifespan of stars, since they would be fusing helium instead of hydrogen.

The intensity of the force binding electrons to protons in atoms depends on the electromagnetic coupling constant. The characteristics of the orbits of electrons about atoms determines to what degree atoms will bond together to form molecules. If the electromagnetic coupling constant were different atoms and molecules would be significantly different.

The ratio of electron to proton mass also determines the characteristics of the orbits of electrons about nuclei. A proton is approximately 1836 times more massive than an electron. If the electron to proton mass ratio were different, atoms and molecules would be significantly different. Bradley has also quoted Stephen Hawking as saying that the neutron mass minus the proton mass must be roughly twice the mass of the electron, in order to ensure the approximate stability of both particles. Collins attributes a similar argument to Barrow and Tipler, although he disputes its relevance to the formation of life on the grounds that pairs of neutrons could decay into deuterons.

The entropy level of the universe affects the condensation of massive systems. The universe contains about one billion photons for every baryon. This makes the universe extremely entropic, i.e. a very efficient radiator and a very poor engine. If the entropy level for the universe were slightly larger, no galactic systems would form (and therefore no stars). If the entropy level were slightly smaller, the galactic systems that formed would effectively trap radiation and prevent any fragmentation of the systems into stars. In either case, the universe would be devoid of stars and solar systems.

The force of gravity affects the interaction of particles. In order for life as we know it to form, the force of gravity must be many orders of magnitude weaker than the force of electromagnetism for charged elementary particles. (Frank Wilczek has said that it is not the force of gravity that is so weak, but the mass of the particles that is so small.) The relationship of gravity to electromagnetism as it currently exists is this: The positively charged particles must equal in charge the negatively charged particles or else electromagnetism will dominate gravity, and stars, galaxies and planets will not form. The numbers of electrons must equal the numbers of protons to better than one part of 1037 (10 to the 37th power), since gravity is 1038 times weaker than electromagnetism. Collins cites arguments (for example by Martin Rees) that if gravity were a billion times stronger than it is, no planet could support any significant ecosystem or civilization. He considers this fine-tuning on the grounds that "to the total range of strengths of the forces in nature (which span a range of 1040 as we saw above), this still amounts to a one-sided fine-tuning of one part in 1031".
Both Bradley and Collins have argued that the cosmological constant must be fine-tuned to within one part in 1050 for the Universe not to enter a runaway expansion phase.

anyhow, the universe is so finely tuned that it is basically statistically impossible to have happened by chance

this leaves three logical conclusions
1)there is an intelligent agent who manipulates the constants so they are just right
2)there are an infinite number of universes that have everyother possible arrangement, hence ours has the variables that are just right
3)the reason it appears fine tuned is because we are here to talk about it.

however, the last answer is always the one given by alot of people, if it wasnt fine tuned we wouldnt be here, making it appear fine tuned.

john leslie a philosopher shows the error of this argument. say your tied to a tree and a fireing squad begins to shoot at you. if one person shoots and misses you chalk it up to a miss, nothing spectacular, nothing divine, a miss.

say 15 guys shoot at you with semis for five minutes but not one bullet hits you. this surely cannot be chalked up to chance, the mere improbability of the situation requires and explanation. chance isnt good enough, it requires a plausible explanation.

this is the scenario but even more so with the universe, we are on a razors edge that requires an answer, chance wont do.

option two says there are a infinite number of universes each with unique properties etc. however, because of relativity we cannot test outside universes, and this belief is based in just as much if not more faith then god.

once you say outside the universe you open pandoras box, by definition the universe is all that exists.

the first option is the most logically sensible, the universe may be or is all there is and intelligence fine tuned it.

ill post other arguments later.

[beatmaster]

well i am an atheist!!!

when i ask for proof, i was talking about the bible and jesus and all the bullshit around it!

You see i don't believe in any gods, jesus(god), buddhism, christianism, you name it!
those are all made up religions, bible is a book wrote by someone (or more) with a big open mind, any one with a head on his shoulder and with the will to do good around him can come up with the same result.

but...... there must be something, powerfull, doesn't have to be a god, but just a force, or maybe there is nothing at all...
there is no prove whatsoever about god or jesus, never.

you see where i chock up, it's when someone talk about jesus did this or that, or god said if you do this or that....... i mean it can't be, not logic!

stuff like Noe, Adam and eve, those are fairy tales, that takes the cake!
or any preachers on tv, god told me to do this....... stfu! con man.

the Mayas used to believe that god was the sun, me and you know it's ridiculous, i feel the same way about gods.

there is 100,000's of planets like ours in the universe that we can see for now, imagine how many advance (or not) planets there is, let's say you could talk to them and say ''hey! how do you feel about jesus, remember when he walked on water and came back from the dead, oops sorry no water here, uhhhh, ok you know his father...god, no? ''

his answer '' what! (translate) and buiiiiiizzzzzzz vaporized'' why because is god is a piece of high power technology, and he will protect it with his life! it doesn't make sense right!!! or let say his god from far away is planet earth (i know it sounds crazy) just like the Mayas, it was the sun, what would you say?
you could play the game and say you are god!

everytime someone talk about the origin of men, god is in the picture again, no way, can't be, not logic, doesn't make sense............. we call it evolution, from the big bang (if that was really it), protein synthesis, dinosaur, the evolution of men (caveman, we have proof) how come we have proof of dinosaur, caveman (we have bones and bodies) 100,000 years ago, we have proof of pharaon 3000 years ago, but none of jesus, why, because it's an hoaxes, made up....... it became a cult than they made a book out of it, re-done the book, again and again and ...... boom church, you know one of the biggest army who killed people was the church!!! forcing people to become catholics

do you believe in bigfoot, ufo's, ghost, anything weird? i think god fit in that!

i know it sounds weird...............

[beatmaster]

your last post is what i'm talking about!

actually last night i was watching something similar on the net, pretty good!
You see i like to know more about that possibility, not a book and a guy name jesus!

[THE BAD GUY]

ITS funny how you say you dont believe in GOD or JESUS yet when you get in trouble who do you call for help? funny thing is most ppl who say they dont believe yell out for GOD!,   if you dont believe in GOD how do you believe everything was Created? come on have a brain

when will you believe when you are in hell? well hell is hot my friends and it will be to late.

[beatmaster]

 too bad you believe in something that doesn't exist, that's the typical answer a believer will give, why cause that all you know, thats all you see around you, open your mind, think about other possibilities, and if you find everything about jesus and the bible logic...........you probably believe in bigfoot too!!!

edit: and your asking me to have a brain......... wow!!!

and if i'm wrong, i know i'm not, where do you think i wanna go........ hell, thats where all bitches are, what do you think sex every night party for eternity, yeah baby i'm coming down, whoooooooooo hooooooooo!!!

[THE BAD GUY]

too bad you believe in something that doesn't exist, that's the typical answer a believer will give, why cause that all you know, thats all you see around you, open your mind, think about other possibilities, and if you find everything about jesus and the bible logic...........you probably believe in bigfoot too!!!

and if i'm wrong, i know i'm not, where do you think i wanna go........ hell, thats where all bitches are, what do you think sex every night party for eternity, yeah baby i'm coming down, whoooooooooo hooooooooo!!!

sorry to disappoint you bro but if you read the bible you will know that hell is not a club to go party and nail bitches it is a place where you will be tortured and burned for ever

[beatmaster]

than let it be, won't happen!!!

man you are really into it, again there is no such thing as jesus (no proof), bible is a book, please!!!

[DK II]

than let it be, won't happen!!!

man you are really into it, again there is no such thing as jesus (no proof), bible is a book, please!!!

btw, beatmaster, there is/are no god/s in buddhism, so you don't need proof for that.

zen buddhism, for example, is purely "to work by yourself".

[tu_holmes]

than let it be, won't happen!!!

man you are really into it, again there is no such thing as jesus (no proof), bible is a book, please!!!

Actually, Jesus was a real person... he may not have been God's "son", or even a Messiah of any sort, but he did truly exist as a human being at the least.

He is considered a prophet in the Muslim faith. (A lesser than Mohammed prophet, but a prophet none the less) The man did exist.

The Bible is just a book and it's pages were written by mere men... That's it. Nothing special there... It's no more a biography of the past than The Lord of The Rings was.

They are both works of fiction.