Was all this gang violence in Iraq happening when Saddam was in power?

[mightymouse72]

The numbers say that more died per year in 2003,4,5,6 than in each year of saddam's reign.

fancy that, huh?

i'll try to put this another way.

right now, if we acheive our goal in iraq, stable democratic gov., strong military and police force,  do you think the iraqi's have a better future ahead than if saddam was still in power??

if you say yes, then would you say we done the right thing?
if no, explain

[mightymouse72]

here's the problem.

we WON.  saddam isn't really a threat these days.  But we won't turn over control to iraqis yet.

why not?

so, by that you think we should just leave now??

[davidpaul]

i'll try to put this another way.

right now, if we acheive our goal in iraq, stable democratic gov., strong military and police force,  do you think the iraqi's have a better future ahead than if saddam was still in power??

if you say yes, then would you say we done the right thing?
if no, explain

bro, it would be great if that could happen, but if saddam was still there, iraq would be a much better place compared to now.

[tu_holmes]

It's the Iraqi's fault and we're not responsible for putting them in this situation! Stop hating America and our service men! 

Who hates America? I love this country... I think we are just loving it's freedoms and saying what we believe.

We ARE somewhat responsible for this situation... without our intervention, this would not be happening... end of story.

I get very upset when people who voice their displeasure with the war and believe that WE are responsible  (You, me, all Americans are somewhat responsible) are told that we "hate" America and our troops... That statement is disgusting and you are WRONG.

I love EVERY service man who is doing their job... I want them to do it on our shores, providing defense to our children, not the Iraqi children, but they can't... Because they were told they have to take out a terrible evil man... only to find out that the terrible evil man was simply keeping ALL of the terrible EVIL men at bay, and now they are running loose.

If you think that roles were reversed and someone invaded your sovereign land in the guise of freeing you from tyranny, but conveniently decided to hang out awhile, and you wouldn't start bombing the people you see every day who supposedly "freed" you, but seem to be the law in your own back yard... you're crazy.

We are in their house, they are not in ours, and that is why we need to get the hell out...

The damned problem is that our brothers and sisters are getting blown to hell for doing a job that they were told to do, even if it is wrong, and the people pulling the strings don't give a shit about the man on the ground.

[240 is Back]

so, by that you think we should just leave now??

Correct. Once you achieve the goals of the war, you leave.

Bush's stated goals to the Congress were 1) WMD 2) Saddam 3) Democracy.

well, wmd were never there and aren't there now, saddam is word food, and they held democratic elections.

Q: Why are we still there?











A: Oil.

[240 is Back]

right now, if we acheive our goal in iraq, stable democratic gov., strong military and police force,  do you think the iraqi's have a better future ahead than if saddam was still in power??

if you say yes, then would you say we done the right thing?
if no, explain

1. This goal was not defined to congress.  Bush made it up later.  There is no congressional approval for "serving as referee in religious civil war".

2.  The right thing?  Not for the families of the 3100 dead soldiers' families.  Really depends on whose point of view you take.  There are causes in every nation on earth we *could* take on.  But oddly, we only take on causes in places where there is oil.

[BRUCE]

Correct. Once you achieve the goals of the war, you leave.

Bush's stated goals to the Congress were 1) WMD 2) Saddam 3) Democracy.

well, wmd were never there and aren't there now, saddam is word food, and they held democratic elections.

Q: Why are we still there?

A: Oil.

So why do you want us to leave if we haven't secured this oil yet?

[tu_holmes]

So why do you want us to leave if we haven't secured this oil yet?

Is the oil worth the cost?

If someone thinks it is... and I do not myself... Then when we do secure it... will my gas price go down to 99 cents a gallon?

The phrase "Dare to dream" comes to mind.

[mightymouse72]

Correct. Once you achieve the goals of the war, you leave.

Bush's stated goals to the Congress were 1) WMD 2) Saddam 3) Democracy.

well, wmd were never there and aren't there now, saddam is word food, and they held democratic elections.

Q: Why are we still there?


A: Oil.

so your saying it's ok to leave and let anyone come in and run the joint?
control the oil? 
i am obviously no high ranking politcal official, but that's a load of horse hockey.
i don't want islamic fanatical terrorists to have any oil revenues? do you?

so we leave after the goals of war are achieved?
i guess we should be packing up any day now in germany and korea.

1. This goal was not defined to congress.  Bush made it up later.  There is no congressional approval for "serving as referee in religious civil war".

 

hindsight.  your using it in your arguement.  you can't because you will always be right. 

still didn't answer the question. 
if iraq gets better, do they have a better future now or if saddam was still there?

[240 is Back]

So why do you want us to leave if we haven't secured this oil yet?

I don't want us to leave Iraq.  I want us to stop getting men killed in the cities.  I want our men and women to pull outta the cities and guard the bases/pipelines/oil ministry and let the Iraqi police handle the shit killing the shit plus innocents in baghdad.

[240 is Back]

Is the oil worth the cost?
If someone thinks it is... and I do not myself... Then when we do secure it... will my gas price go down to 99 cents a gallon?
The phrase "Dare to dream" comes to mind.

I dream about hot naked girls.  Alternative energy sources rarely make the cut.

Gas will go up way more than 99 cents a gallon.  And everything that needs gas to be built or shipped will go up too, including food.  Plus, the CHinese will grab the oil and suddenly THEY will *find* WMD or they will false flag attack and blame the US, and in 30 years they'll be doing to us, what we are doing to iraq.  history says it will happen.

And yes, oil is worth the cost.  Google the value of the oil under Iraqi sands.  We're talking 20 to 50 trillion dollars worth at market price.

[BRUCE]

I don't want us to leave Iraq.

You just said the complete opposite, Rob.

[240 is Back]

so your saying it's ok to leave and let anyone come in and run the joint?
control the oil? 
i am obviously no high ranking politcal official, but that's a load of horse hockey.
i don't want islamic fanatical terrorists to have any oil revenues? do you?

No.  We leave the cities yet guard the oil facilities and the borders.  you come within 5 miles, you are neutralized by air.  We stop losing men, and let the iraqi police do their job without the US and their pesky liberal media slowing them down.

hindsight.  your using it in your arguement.  you can't because you will always be right.  

Nothing to do with hindsight.  Bush asked for A,B,C.  Today, A,B,C are all completed.  Bush then introduced D.  Will E, F, G be next?

if iraq gets better, do they have a better future now or if saddam was still there?

I think anyone who has been there can answer this - Iraq will not get better until another ballbreaker opens up shop and does exactly what saddam did.  The people there only undersstand power, ball crushing power.  They don't have the internal controls of most Americans. They will loot, rape and kill til they're scared not to.  

So peace will only come when another Saddam takes power, sadly.

[BRUCE]

So peace will only come when another Saddam takes power, sadly.

Iraq was 'peaceful' when Saddam was in power?  This is one of the more idiotic statements I've seen you make.

[ieffinhatecardio]

Weren't we hearing about all the good we are doing for the Iraqis? Aren't we bringing them Democracy and freedom? Aren't we making their lives better? I remember reading posts that said just that.

Guess what? The streets of Baghdad are a lawless waste zone. More than 40 murdered per day EXCLUDING the major bombings is not a better life. I love the justifications too. Sticking by your party no matter what is just so sad to witness.

Iraq is one giant CLUSTERFUCK right now.

[tu_holmes]

Iraq was 'peaceful' when Saddam was in power?  This is one of the more idiotic statements I've seen you make.

Internally, it was... All of Saddam's killing sprees had happened a long time ago.

[240 is Back]

Iraq was 'peaceful' when Saddam was in power?  This is one of the more idiotic statements I've seen you make.

BRUCE,

Was Iraq more peaceful:

1) in 1998, under saddam, or
2) in 2006, under al maliki/us presence?

You can quantify any way you choose.

[BRUCE]

Okay guys, just because the deaths Iraq weren't shoved down your throat before we went there, you just keep on pretending it was a peaceful wonderland.

The rest of us will remember Saddam using WMD on his own citizens and making people disappear as he pleased.  Oh happy days.

I'll take anyone to 'The Cage' on this one.

[BRUCE]

BRUCE,

Was Iraq more peaceful:

1) in 1998, under saddam, or
2) in 2006, under al maliki/us presence?

You can quantify any way you choose.

How about I take you to 'The Cage' on this issue?

[240 is Back]

Okay guys, just because the deaths Iraq weren't shoved down your throat before we went there, you just keep on pretending it was a peaceful wonderland.

The rest of us will remember Saddam using WMD on his own citizens and making people disappear as he pleased.  Oh happy days.

I'll take anyone to 'The Cage' on this one.

it's comparing one really bad thing to another bad thing.

no one is saying saddam was anything other than an evil murderer.

Question is, did more people die per year NOW, or under saddam?

[BRUCE]

The topic can be something along the lines of: 'Is post-war Iraq a better nation than before coalition intervention?'.

[tu_holmes]

so your saying it's ok to leave and let anyone come in and run the joint?
control the oil? 
i am obviously no high ranking politcal official, but that's a load of horse hockey.
i don't want islamic fanatical terrorists to have any oil revenues? do you?

Islamic terrorist funding people already have a TON of oil, and we buy it every day... Saudi Arabia... Kuwait.

so we leave after the goals of war are achieved?
i guess we should be packing up any day now in germany and korea.
 

Having a base in a strategic location is different than fighting a war day in and day out.

if iraq gets better, do they have a better future now or if saddam was still there?

Unfortunately, I don't work to well in "ifs" of this nature... I really am too tired of seeing troops come home in bodybags and having to have average citizens patrol our borders to worry about "If Iraq gets better". How about we "Make the US Better"?

[240 is Back]

How about I take you to 'The Cage' on this issue?

huh?

someone posted the numbers here, # of deaths per year under saddam and under our rule.  

more people die now.

no one is defending saddam dude.  but it's no picnic in there with this democracy because the people are not programmed to use it and it'll take 1-2 generations for them to become trained to accept it.  And there might not be too many left to enjoy it by that point.

[BRUCE]

no one is defending saddam dude.

No? Then what is this?

So peace will only come when another Saddam takes power, sadly.

Get a grip.

[240 is Back]

Islamic terrorist funding people already have a TON of oil, and we buy it every day... Saudi Arabia... Kuwait.
Having a base in a strategic location is different than fighting a war day in and day out.
Unfortunately, I don't work to well in "ifs" of this nature... I really am too tired of seeing troops come home in bodybags and having to have average citizens patrol our borders to worry about "If Iraq gets better". How about we "Make the US Better"?

we do need to control iraqi oil, i don't think anyone argues that.  They're gonna get assplunged by someone.  The plunger might as well be made in the USA and not china.