Iraq Victory predictions

[240 is Back]

Do you believe we will win this war, and if so, what month and year?



If not, what month/year will we pull out of the cities?

[24KT]

I predict those who make money from the high price of oil & gas will prosper greatly

[ieffinhatecardio]

Do you believe we will win this war, and if so, what month and year?



If not, what month/year will we pull out of the cities?

At this point I'm not actually sure what "win" means. What objective has to be met in order for us to declare victory?

[24KT]

At this point I'm not actually sure what "win" means. What objective has to be met in order for us to declare victory?

That all depends on your stake in the matter doesn't it?

Me personally, I don't want to see war... needless death, destruction, and loss of life.
At the same time, I am positioned to prosper should the situation escalate even further.
I have no conflict. What is gonna happen is gonna happen whether I want it to or not.
If the war ends tomorrow, ...I'm happy. If it escalates... I make money. Victory is mine whatever happens.

[240 is Back]

At this point I'm not actually sure what "win" means. What objective has to be met in order for us to declare victory?

Four years into a war, and Americans still can't define the objective.



That's by design, isn't it?

[ieffinhatecardio]

That all depends on your stake in the matter doesn't it?

Me personally, I don't want to see war... needless death, destruction, and loss of life.
At the same time, I am positioned to prosper should the situation escalate even further.
I have no conflict. What is gonna happen is gonna happen whether I want it to or not.
If the war ends tomorrow, ...I'm happy. If it escalates... I make money. Victory is mine whatever happens.

I wasn't looking at this on a personal level. What has to happen in order for the USA to declare victory? What objective has to be met in order for Bush to be able to stand up and say " We Won"?

Clearly democracy isn't going to prevail in the next few years to a point where Iraq runs as a democracy on it's own. Wasn't that our agenda after toppling Saddam?

[24KT]

No Objective + No Exit Strategy = Indefinite Occupation & Countless American lives lost.

If there's no objective, ...how can you tell if you've won, ...how do you even know if it's time to go home?

[G o a t b o y]

Do you believe we will win this war, and if so, what month and year?



If not, what month/year will we pull out of the cities?

There's a huge difference between winning a war (destroying the opposing forces and removing their leadership from power), and bringing "law and order" to the streets.   The former we accomplished years ago... took us like a week total as I recall.  The latter we'll never accomplish because we're unwilling to resort to the brutality required to accomplish it... it's that simple.

[240 is Back]

Clearly democracy isn't going to prevail in the next few years to a point where Iraq runs as a democracy on it's own. Wasn't that our agenda after toppling Saddam?

WMD was goal #1 - they weren't there, maybe ever, maybe destroyed, but that is clearly accomplished.
Removing saddam was goal #2 - done.  
Democracy was goal #3.  It was accomplished when they held elections.

Goal #4?  Is it to stop a war that's been raging over 1000 years?  Change the mindset of 50 generations' worth of repetition?  Protect people?  

I think Goal #4 is to maintain presence (neither winning nor losing) while goal #5 is accomplished.


Goal #5 is removing the oil (we have proof we're doing it, and at unfair prices) and building bases (going well).  We just need time.  that's what goal #4 is for.  Vague, undefinable goals that keep the focus off the oil pilferage and bases.

[24KT]

There's a huge difference between winning a war (destroying the opposing forces and removing their leadership from power), and bringing "law and order" to the streets.   The former we accomplished years ago... took us like a week total as I recall.  The latter we'll never accomplish because we're unwilling to resort to the brutality required to accomplish it... it's that simple.

Law and Order is what they HAD.
Bush overthrew their government, and hung the one guy who was able to bring Law and Order to Iraq.
The type of brutality you speak of is not something that can be administered from an outside force and be effective.

It's like harsh words of criticism. Hearing them from a Canadian just hardens your resolve and plugs your ears, even if the Canadian is speaking the truth. You need to hear it from an American before it starts to register with you. The same with brutality in Iraq. If you think American forces can go in there and start cracking down...you might as well stop building roads, hospitals, and other infrastucture, and use all the money to open terrorist training camps.  
You will have at least gotten one thing right.

[OzmO]

We win when they all become obedient 3rd world Christians   

[tu_holmes]

No... Never... Maybe 2523..

[BRUCE]

Is it to stop a war that's been raging over 1000 years?

And which war would that be?

[240 is Back]

And which war would that be?

the dispute between the religious groups there.



And it's cute the way you won't make a prediction here.  I"m seeing now you never take positions, you just shit on the positions of others.

[headhuntersix]

I think victory can be achieved if we are able to partition the country. 3 separate "states" with Bagdad as a federal capital. I don't know whether this can work but it will cut down the violence. The kurds would have to agree not to have any ambitions towards the kurdish parts of Turkey. A solid oil revenue sharing plane would have to be established. Maybe under the UN or a well paid private Arab firm. We would need to begin to pull troops out of Bagdad to our larger bases and to the borders. There are no easy answers and the Dems have none but to pull out.

[Option D]

But its like who are we fighting. We arent fighting the Iraq military, where we can say they sustained enough losses to call it quits. We fight regular people whose purpose is rooted in a religious ideoligy. So its not like we want this land and are fighting to take/protect this. They think the american occupation is spiritually wrong to their god and are being taught that everyday. So how can we tell if we will win. We cant kill a religious belief. So lets just bring them home.

[headhuntersix]

Its not that simple..we can't allow guys like Bin Laden to slow bleed us and then attack when he wants..pulling out of the cities won't give thema target. The iraqi police and militray can secure their cities and we can finally withdraw all togther.

[240 is Back]

Its not that simple..we can't allow guys like Bin Laden to slow bleed us and then attack when he wants..pulling out of the cities won't give thema target. The iraqi police and militray can secure their cities and we can finally withdraw all togther.

'slow bleed'.

That word was incorrectly atributed to dems by fox news.  now it's quoted all the time as the dems plan.  They didn't create it though.  that phrase irks me.


and yes, i agree with ya, let's get the hell outta the cities and guard that bases, oil, and border.  It's already public record that indeed we ARE taking their oil for less than market cost, so that bullshit argument can die.  Since we admit it now, let's just guard what is ours, and let the iraqis manage their own cities.

[headhuntersix]

I don't know what they ment by slow bleed but my use has to do with the insurgency. Small attacks...IED's..no pitched battles they can't win and conversely  nothing we can splash across the screen to say we're winning.

[militarymuscle69]

WMD was goal #1 - they weren't there, maybe ever, maybe destroyed, but that is clearly accomplished.
Removing saddam was goal #2 - done.  
Democracy was goal #3.  It was accomplished when they held elections.

Goal #4?  Is it to stop a war that's been raging over 1000 years?  Change the mindset of 50 generations' worth of repetition?  Protect people?  

I think Goal #4 is to maintain presence (neither winning nor losing) while goal #5 is accomplished.


Goal #5 is removing the oil (we have proof we're doing it, and at unfair prices) and building bases (going well).  We just need time.  that's what goal #4 is for.  Vague, undefinable goals that keep the focus off the oil pilferage and bases.

I think in the long run we are going to have to do like we did in Korea/Germany and seperate the country. Why not make 3 seperate areas where each group can run their country as they choose. In the end I believe they would all 3 be "democratic" which would meet our goals but they wouldn't have to sacrifice their religious beliefs.

[BRUCE]

And it's cute the way you won't make a prediction here.  I"m seeing now you never take positions, you just shit on the positions of others.

It's cute you make up a 1000 year war to try and help your argument.  How can I make predictions about Iraq when people like your good self are voting in the US?  America can win, but it needs to do more to win an idological battle against the jihad to do so.

[Option D]

It's cute you make up a 1000 year war to try and help your argument.  How can I make predictions about Iraq when people like your good self are voting in the US?  America can win, but it needs to do more to win an idological battle against the jihad to do so.

What would be the definition of win?

[BRUCE]

What would be the definition of win?

An Iraq that is largely free of terror attacks would be one form of victory.  The longer term aspiration is to convince young Muslim men that freedom is a far more attractive choice than jihad.

[24KT]

An Iraq that is largely free of terror attacks would be one form of victory.  The longer term aspiration is to convince young Muslim men that freedom is a far more attractive choice than jihad.

my understanding is their jihad is all about freedom.
Freedom from foreign occupation & corruption.
They want the foreigners out of their country.

[BRUCE]

my understanding is their jihad is all about freedom.
Freedom from foreign occupation & corruption.
They want the foreigners out of their country.

Actually, Sharia law contradicts everything you or I would consider to be 'freedom' in the way we exercise it during our daily lives.