Countries that allow homosexual people to serve openly in thier military

[Dos Equis]

this is more a tax issue that's being fought with religion.   

I undecided myself about it. 

What about the 7 states?

I don't believe it's a tax issue.  I think it's a refusal to endorse homosexual marriage and an attempt to preserve traditional marriage.  And it is not a religious issue.  It's not a partisan issue either.  Republicans and Democrats have passed these measures by overwhelming margins.  The country doesn't want this.  

I don't know what the deal is with the 7 states who don't have these measures, but the fact that 43 out of 50 states recently rejected homosexual marriage speaks volumes.  And by "recently" I mean since the Clinton Administration, which if memory serves is when the federal Defense of Marriage Act was signed and state legislatures around the country followed suit.  

[Dos Equis]

This is true...That's why it should remain a state issue.

It's also a federal issue:  the Defense of Marriage Act. 

[tu_holmes]

It's also a federal issue:  the Defense of Marriage Act. 

I think that's bunk tho... The government should have NO call in marriage what so ever... period.

Straight, gay, or otherwise... That is bull.

[militarymuscle69]

Minority of the sates?  there are 40 million + in California.......alone

1 state dummy

[tu_holmes]

1 state dummy

It is a minority of states, but it's a pretty good chunk of the US population.

[Al-Gebra]

I think that's bunk tho... The government should have NO call in marriage what so ever... period.

Straight, gay, or otherwise... That is bull.

i suppose we should also dump the criminal law system while we're at it?

   think before you post, holmes.

[OzmO]

1 state dummy

heheheheh

You know i'm  willing to bet it's that way in some larger metropolitan areas around the US.

Perhaps BB,  could tell us what it is like in Honolulu schools.

[Al-Gebra]

It is a minority of states, but it's a pretty good chunk of the US population.

yeah, and our founding fathers didn't intend for a "good chunk" to have too much clout. 

Ever hear of a body called the Senate? Why do you think it's organized the way it is?

[Dos Equis]

I think that's bunk tho... The government should have NO call in marriage what so ever... period.

Straight, gay, or otherwise... That is bull.

Not necessarily Tu.  I haven't read about this in a while, but I think the reason we have the Defense of Marriage Act is the Full Faith and Credit Clause in the U.S. Constitution requires, among other things, states to recognize marriages performed in other states.  The Defense of Marriage Act gives states the right to refuse to recognize homosexual marriages performed in other states.  

I think this is right . . .  

[militarymuscle69]

I told you i didn;t have time to research it,  but DeeDee has.   

what i related to you however was real and is a fact.   Did say it was in those states too?   What i said was it shows progress in just that little area, but it is progress.   

Also, many states have adopted laws protecting gays from discrimination,  that is also progress.  Are you going to refute those also?

Additionally, some TV shows involving Gays get good ratings.....  what was it now?  Debra Messing, didn;t she have a show that was rated high with gays that ran for number of years?   

That kind of thing wouldn't be possible 20 years ago i don;t think.  Because the general public wouldn't allow these shows to become popular.  Advertising revenue wouldn't come in if people weren't watching it.  Isn't capitalism just great?  I love it.  It's the true equalizer IMO.


Now i wonder which part of this response you are going focus to refute while ignoring everything else.

again.. to easy. Wow so there was a popular show with a gay on it. It is near impossible to watch a show without a gay on it, like I said it is forced upon us. What are we supposed to do not watch any TV? And it is one thing to watch a show that makes fun of the gay stereotype such as will and grace. You don't see men kissing on the major networks do you. That wound't make it in our society. Point me

And 7 states? oh wow!!! the other 43 obviously aren't accepting of gays. The only 7 that are is where Libs have come to power and forced it on the others! Point me.

Give up OzmO..You have nothing.

[tu_holmes]

Not necessarily Tu.  I haven't read about this in a while, but I think the reason we have the Defense of Marriage Act is the Full Faith and Credit Clause in the U.S. Constitution requires, among other things, states to recognize marriages performed in other states.  The Defense of Marriage Act gives states the right to refuse to recognize homosexual marriages performed in other states. 

I think this is right . . . 

I don't think that's required... I mean, if I have a permit to carry a gun in one state it doesn't pass over to the other...

If you make marriage a state only issue, then that's it... states can do what they want, and never have to support other state laws... I don't see why marriage is so special.

I don't know about the Faith and Credit clause in the constitution, I will look into it and get back on that.

[Al-Gebra]

Not necessarily Tu.  I haven't read about this in a while, but I think the reason we have the Defense of Marriage Act is the Full Faith and Credit Clause in the U.S. Constitution requires, among other things, states to recognize marriages performed in other states.  The Defense of Marriage Act gives states the right to refuse to recognize homosexual marriages performed in other states. 

I think this is right . . . 

Yup, the SC will not allow one state to dictate to others (John Marshall in his great McCulloch opinion). 

Marriage law, like many of our criminal statutes, is closely related to the morality of our society . . . Even if I don't approve wholeheartedly, I recognize the necessity of the link.  As the society changes, so will the law.  See miscegenation statutes.   

[OzmO]

again.. to easy. Wow so there was a popular show with a gay on it. It is near impossible to watch a show without a gay on it, like I said it is forced upon us. What are we supposed to do not watch any TV? And it is one thing to watch a show that makes fun of the gay stereotype such as will and grace. You don't see men kissing on the major networks do you. That wound't make it in our society. Point me

And 7 states? oh wow!!! the other 43 obviously aren't accepting of gays. The only 7 that are is where Libs have come to power and forced it on the others! Point me.

Give up OzmO..You have nothing.

you aren't forced to watch it, first of all, second, if the public didn't like it advertisers wouldn't give their money tot he show

So that's says very clearly the PUBLICS ACCEPTANCE OF GAYS HAS CHANGED IN THE LAST 20 YEARS.

You lost a point there and i gain and additional point for you trying to keep track....  that's very gay of you.   

Also the gay marriage thing, if it passed would be a big one, but it hasn;t and it will be maybe 50 years till that happens,  but the gay marrirage thing is certainly not the ONLY barometer of gay accpetance

So let's review:

There are other Armies who run just fine and have an open gay policy.

We've determine that an effective army is based on high moral character regarding rape, killing and theft, also training and equipment,  in other words to say we have a great or best  military because we don;t have a open gay policy is just plain stupid.

Acceptance of the gay lifestyle has change in the last 20 years:  State laws, polls, TV, Movies, personal experiences in schools.

You haven't provided any facts what so ever,  just all opinion, which i respect.  but it's opinion none the less.


Try again Sam.   

[militarymuscle69]

you aren't forced to watch it, first of all, second, if the public didn't like it advertisers wouldn't give their money tot he show

So that's says very clearly the PUBLICS ACCEPTANCE OF GAYS HAS CHANGED IN THE LAST 20 YEARS.

You lost a point there and i gain and additional point for you trying to keep track....  that's very gay of you.   

Also the gay marriage thing, if it passed would be a big one, but it hasn;t and it will be maybe 50 years till that happens,  but the gay marrirage thing is certainly not the barometer of gay accpetance

So let's review:

There are other Armies who run just fine and have an open gay policy.

We've determine that an effective army is based on high moral character regarding rape, killing and theft, also training and equipment,  in other words to say we have a great or best  military because we don;t have a open gay policy is just plain stupid.

Acceptance of the gay lifestyle has change in the last 20 years:  State laws, polls, TV, Movies, personal experiences in schools.

You haven't provided any facts what so ever,  just all opinion, which i respect.  but it's opinion none the less.


Try again Sam.   

Wait wait wait. As dumb as I have always thought you were you just lost more credibility. You are trying to say that a TV show being popular is a "barometer" of gay acceptance but the failure to be able to pass a gay marriage bill isn't? WTF chuck! what an idiot.

See you were skim reading again, I said that if they showed 2 men kissing on TV, then they would lose money. They don't show that on the networks because...wait for it....... HOMOSEXUAL ACTS AREN"T ACCEPTED IN SOCIETY!!!!!! And clearly the libs at the networks know this. point point point baby!!!!! Shows like Will and Grace make fun of fags and we love it!!! If gayness is so accepted now what happened to Queer eye? and why wasn't that on a network station? Exactly bitch, wouldn't have made it!! You are making this no fun anymore.

You also haven't shown any fact........ I have actually, it is a fact that network tv doesn't show 2 men kissing because they would lose sponsors!!!! BIG FAT FACT!!!

And once again, America isn't a liberal country. That is why gays aren't accepted in our military. See I produced fact on that also but you never responded. Just like the population of europe declining due to liberalism....I print fact and you ran like a girl

[Dos Equis]

Yup, the SC will not allow one state to dictate to others (John Marshall in his great McCulloch opinion). 

Marriage law, like many of our criminal statutes, is closely related to the morality of our society . . . Even if I don't approve wholeheartedly, I recognize the necessity of the link.  As the society changes, so will the law.  See miscegenation statutes.   

I pretty much agree.  It's just a matter of time.  It will be harder and harder to prohibit homosexual marriage when we are gradually including homosexuals in the class of protected groups (race, gender, religion, etc.).  I do believe that even though the country is currently overwhelmingly opposed, it is coming.  I'll be voting against it till then, but will accept it when it happens. 

[OzmO]

Wait wait wait. As dumb as I have always thought you were you just lost more credibility. You are trying to say that a TV show being popular is a "barometer" of gay acceptance but the failure to be able to pass a gay marriage bill isn't? WTF chuck! what an idiot.

See you were skim reading again, I said that if they showed 2 men kissing on TV, then they would lose money. They don't show that on the networks because...wait for it....... HOMOSEXUAL ACTS AREN"T ACCEPTED IN SOCIETY!!!!!! And clearly the libs at the networks know this. point point point baby!!!!! Shows like Will and Grace make fun of fags and we love it!!! If gayness is so accepted now what happened to Queer eye? and why wasn't that on a network station? Exactly bitch, wouldn't have made it!! You are making this no fun anymore.

You also haven't shown any fact........ I have actually, it is a fact that network tv doesn't show 2 men kissing because they would lose sponsors!!!! BIG FAT FACT!!!

And once again, America isn't a liberal country. That is why gays aren't accepted in our military. See I produced fact on that also but you never responded. Just like the population of europe declining due to liberalism....I print fact and you ran like a girl

Ok  i'll try and explain it again.  I know it's hard for you to get it, maybe cause you're too busy thinking you actually made a real point.  You must an E-2 or something, especially when you say something like "Exactly bitch" the way you used it.

OK, YOU said the gay lifestyle is being rammed down people's throats.  Fact is people will not watch shows if there is something about them they don;t like.  If it's about a gay lifestyle or involves one, advertisers will not keep paying for shows that people don;t watch.

They didn't have shows like this 20 years ago or at least not many, now there are more. 

Do you get it now? 

probably not,  because you're still hung up on 2 guys kissing on another.   

Your Europe thing?   Show me where it's directly a result of homosexuality.  I asked you to show me where the pop is decreasing.  You did that.  good boy.  Now show me why it is happening, show me the causes for the child rate to decrease.   

[tu_holmes]

Wait wait wait. As dumb as I have always thought you were you just lost more credibility. You are trying to say that a TV show being popular is a "barometer" of gay acceptance but the failure to be able to pass a gay marriage bill isn't? WTF chuck! what an idiot.

See you were skim reading again, I said that if they showed 2 men kissing on TV, then they would lose money. They don't show that on the networks because...wait for it....... HOMOSEXUAL ACTS AREN"T ACCEPTED IN SOCIETY!!!!!! And clearly the libs at the networks know this. point point point baby!!!!! Shows like Will and Grace make fun of fags and we love it!!! If gayness is so accepted now what happened to Queer eye? and why wasn't that on a network station? Exactly bitch, wouldn't have made it!! You are making this no fun anymore.

You also haven't shown any fact........ I have actually, it is a fact that network tv doesn't show 2 men kissing because they would lose sponsors!!!! BIG FAT FACT!!!

And once again, America isn't a liberal country. That is why gays aren't accepted in our military. See I produced fact on that also but you never responded. Just like the population of europe declining due to liberalism....I print fact and you ran like a girl

While I agree with your premise... Will and Grace had one of the most watched episodes in it's history with their gay male kiss.

Gay women never seem to have much opposition though...

[OzmO]

While I agree with your premise... Will and Grace had one of the most watched episodes in it's history with their gay male kiss.

Gay women never seem to have much opposition though...

Well MM69

Any Hoo rah's from you on this one?


 

[militarymuscle69]

Ok  i'll try and explain it again.  I know it's hard for you to get it, maybe cause you're too busy thinking you actually made a real point.  You must an E-2 or something, especially when you say something like "Exactly bitch" the way you used it.

OK, YOU said the gay lifestyle is being rammed down people's throats.  Fact is people will not watch shows if there is something about them they don;t like.  If it's about a gay lifestyle or involves one, advertisers will not keep paying for shows that people don;t watch.

They didn't have shows like this 20 years ago or at least not many, now there are more. 

Do you get it now? 

probably not,  because you're still hung up on 2 guys kissing on another.   

Your Europe thing?   Show me where it's directly a result of homosexuality.  I asked you to show me where the pop is decreasing.  You did that.  good boy.  Now show me why it is happening, show me the causes for the child rate to decrease.   

You keep proving my point. People watch will and grace because...phew I am getting tired....IT MAKES FUN OF GAYS!!!!! That doesn't translate to acceptance. It translates to a way for us to laugh at flamers!!! Shows that have a "serious" gay character don't do as well.

Homosexuality is more prevelant in Europe...they can't procreate...brings down birth rates. Also it has been proven that liberals have fewer babies. I didn't say gayness was the sole reason. I was proving that europe is more liberal than the US, that is why the birth rate is declining, and a more liberal country's military would do better with gays in it.

Way to combat my FACTS on the declining birth rate by asking for more facts. And way to combat my facts on why gay men aren't shown on network television with...guess you didn't combat that did you. Great moderator we have

[militarymuscle69]

While I agree with your premise... Will and Grace had one of the most watched episodes in it's history with their gay male kiss.

Gay women never seem to have much opposition though...

I'm sure that is true. Doesn't it seem weird that if it were that popular they  didn't show it again?

[tu_holmes]

I'm sure that is true. Doesn't it seem weird that if it were that popular they  didn't show it again?

They did actually, once more I recall but the series had run its course...

[OzmO]

You keep proving my point. People watch will and grace because...phew I am getting tired....IT MAKES FUN OF GAYS!!!!! That doesn't translate to acceptance. It translates to a way for us to laugh at flamers!!! Shows that have a "serious" gay character don't do as well.

Homosexuality is more prevelant in Europe...they can't procreate...brings down birth rates. Also it has been proven that liberals have fewer babies. I didn't say gayness was the sole reason. I was proving that europe is more liberal than the US, that is why the birth rate is declining, and a more liberal country's military would do better with gays in it.

Way to combat my FACTS on the declining birth rate by asking for more facts. And way to combat my facts on why gay men aren't shown on network television with...guess you didn't combat that did you. Great moderator we have

I ask you for causes of the fact you provided.  Can you do that?  or not?

As far as whether or not they make fun of gays?  If they were showing gays in a derogatory manner you might have a point.  But  that's not the case.

Try again Sam.   

BTW the only 2 things I've had to do or been asked to as a moderator is delete 2 posts.  One was yours when you called someone a SLUT.  It only showcased just how classless you are. 

[militarymuscle69]

I ask you for causes of the fact you provided.  Can you do that?  or not?

As far as whether or not they make fun of gays?  If they were showing gays in a derogatory manner you might have a point.  But  that's not the case.

Try again Sam.   

BTW the only 2 things I've had to do or been asked to as a moderator is delete 2 posts.  One was yours when you called someone a SLUT.  It only showcased just how classless you are. 

Well she sounded slutty, and yes these shows do portray gays negatively. The yshow them to be flaming whining bitches. Would Will and Grace have "run it's course" if they hadn't showed 2 men kissing? And I provided causes for the decline. liberalism/homosexuality

[tu_holmes]

Well she sounded slutty, and yes these shows do portray gays negatively. The yshow them to be flaming whining bitches. Would Will and Grace have "run it's course" if they hadn't showed 2 men kissing? And I provided causes for the decline. liberalism/homosexuality

Yes, Will and Grace had already made plans to cancel the show long before those episodes... So yes.

I didn't find them to be offensive to gays at all.. While 1 character was over the top (Jack), the main Gay character (Will) was always shown to be professional and good, even though he was just gay.

I do not see how anyone could say that gays were being mocked... Certainly one character was out there, but in the real world, some people (including some gays) are out there.

[OzmO]

Well she sounded slutty, and yes these shows do portray gays negatively. The yshow them to be flaming whining bitches. Would Will and Grace have "run it's course" if they hadn't showed 2 men kissing? And I provided causes for the decline. liberalism/homosexuality

well she sounded slutty?


I guess the word gentlemen isn't taught where you come from.

Obviously "class" isn't.